The Next Collectables

[LookingForMyImola]

JD, I whole heartedly agree with you. Maybe you and I are out to lunch, but I would FAR rather pay a premium price for a completely original NSX, then one that has been modified. Don't get me wrong- I do love tinkering with my cars, however, I would far rather pay for a pristine, unmodified, unmolested NSX. Replicas do little for me as well, as they are trying to be something they are not.


Im not not sure about the NSX-R, but looking at the MUCH cheaper brethren, the Integra Type R had upgrades done to the chassis as well, over the Integra GS-R. Some weight saving here, some strengthening there, etc. Is the same true for the NSX version?


I could be wrong, but I think your estimate of transforming a regular NSX into a Type R replica is low. I remember a few years ago I was reading an issue of Honda Tuning where they were doing a feature on NSXs- they mentioned that the NSX-R seats, from the factory (if you can even still buy them) were going for 10k each. Used wheels go for what, 8k?


If that is the case, someone would have to spend a small fortune to build a legitimate NSX-R (02+). After all, buying parts is always more expensive then buying an entire car. I know the NSX-R demands a premium, but I highly doubt you can build one for any much cheaper. And sourcing the parts may not be any much easier. Sure you can find a shift boot, or gauge bezel relatively easy, but those are the "inexpensive" parts in comparison to items such as seats and wheels.


That being said, any NSX-R replica will more then likely only have bits and pieces of a true R. "Bits and pieces" in my mind just means modifying a car and as someone already stated above, a modified car would be at the bottom of the value scale, in comparison to a completely stock and R version. If someone did actually spend the money to replace every notable regular piece for the R version, they might as well just buy a real NSX-R and have the super high value stay with the car as well.

 

[white98sh]

I think the 91-01 models could get away with mods adding more value, for one since the earliest models have depreciated so much that some desired mods can considerably increase the value. You may not get 1:1 return but for genuine NSX-R parts it will be close.

For 02+ stock or with easily reversible mods will fetch the most money. I wonder how the market will change once the NA1 Type-R's can be legally imported (in 2016). They are going for around $100K+ currently. I think in a few years that will seem cheap. For comparison, low mileage 02+ are selling for the same price in Japan.

 

[Nukem]

I think the 91-01 models could get away with mods adding more value, for one since the earliest models have depreciated so much that some desired mods can considerably increase the value. You may not get 1:1 return but for genuine NSX-R parts it will be close.

For 02+ stock or with easily reversible mods will fetch the most money. I wonder how the market will change once the NA1 Type-R's can be legally imported (in 2016). They are going for around $100K+ currently. I think in a few years that will seem cheap. For comparison, low mileage 02+ are selling for the same price in Japan.

Another question that arises in 2016 when the original NA1 Type R becomes available for import is the value. I assume the value will continue to rise in the next couple of years, that should be a gimme. However when Americans willing to spend $100K on a NSX type R will that shoot the value up even more?

 

[The Kid]

As someone who deal with specialty and collector cars for a living, Mods destroy a cars value. Collectors want original specimens.

 

[JD Cross]

Another question that arises in 2016 when the original NA1 Type R becomes available for import is the value. I assume the value will continue to rise in the next couple of years, that should be a gimme. However when Americans willing to spend $100K on a NSX type R will that shoot the value up even more?

That's a very good question.
No doubt some genuine type-r's will be imported to the US and this increase in global demand may help move prices up.
I think that you can import a type-r in into the UK now but I don't know if that and other RHD drive markets have had any bearing on current prices.
However even if type-r prices increase by say 50% when the door to the US opens, I wouldn't want to have $70-90K invested in a LHD clone that doesn't have the correct type-r engine.

 

[docjohn]

remember the zanardi was a factory S for the US market.

 

[RYU]

Here's an example of why I feel the collector car market is bogus.

I restored a numbers matching, fully documented, original 1970 Chevelle SS 396 convertible. I then bought a 66 base model Malibu and pro-toured it with a LS1. Driving the 70 was not nearly as much fun as the 66. Yet I sold the 70 for 10x more.

It remains to be seen if the new generation of car lovers shun the garage queens. I certainly see it in my circles yet my older friends will argue the value is in its originality and low miles.

 

[The Kid]

remember the zanardi was a factory S for the US market.

You know when you run a Carfax on a Z car it says "Zanardi/Type S"

 

[JD Cross]

Here's an example of why I feel the collector car market is bogus.

I restored a numbers matching, fully documented, original 1970 Chevelle SS 396 convertible. I then bought a 66 base model Malibu and pro-toured it with a LS1. Driving the 70 was not nearly as much fun as the 66. Yet I sold the 70 for 10x more.

It remains to be seen if the new generation of car lovers shun the garage queens. I certainly see it in my circles yet my older friends will argue the value is in its originality and low miles.

Curious why you think collector pricing is bogus.
It's not about driveability or performance.
Isn't it about what a buyer will pay for a car and if a buyer(s) will pay more for an original specimen isn't that reality?

 

[tof]

As someone who deal with specialty and collector cars for a living, Mods destroy a cars value. Collectors want original specimens.

That has generally been the rule in the past. One exception that does come to mind is pre-war cars that were re-bodied by coach builders, particularly if the re-body was a major aesthetic improvement.

But the point of the panel was that the NSX might be an exception to the rule if the modifications were appropriate. One mod that seems to consistently add value is a Comptech or C T Engineering supercharger. I have a feeling that down the road a period-correct Comptech supercharger will add value, especially if it was installed by an Acura dealer when the car was new. Same could be true for Comptech headers, Comptech exhaust and maybe even period correct Comptech-sourced Technomagnesio wheels. But I am thinking if it's a USDM NSX, the best value modifications will be period correct modifications that could have been sourced through Acura dealers. Then would come nice period-correct JDM parts from high end suppliers like Mugen.

- - - Updated - - -

Curious why you think collector pricing is bogus.
It's not about driveability or performance.
Isn't it about what a buyer will pay for a car and if a buyer(s) will pay more for an original specimen isn't that reality?

JD, I don't men to put words into RYU's virtual mouth, but I think his point was that sometimes pricing in the collector car market doesn't make sense, when one compares collector pricing to intrinsic value. And I'd have to say I agree.

As far as NSX-R clones go, I agree that they may not be a wise investment unless one keeps all the original parts to pass on in a future sale. And even then it would be difficult to recover more than a fraction of the cost of the upgrade parts in a part-out. But unlike the Mopar guys who quickly walk away from tribute cars, I always enjoy seeing a well done NSX-R tribute, even in LHD, at shows and meets. It might not be something I would ever do to a stock NSX but I'm glad there are owners out there who do.

 

[JD Cross]

But the point of the panel was that the NSX might be an exception to the rule if the modifications were appropriate.- - - Updated - - -
JD, I don't men to put words into RYU's virtual mouth, but I think his point was that sometimes pricing in the collector car market doesn't make sense, when one compares collector pricing to intrinsic value. And I'd have to say I agree.
As far as NSX-R clones go, I agree that they may not be a wise investment unless one keeps all the original parts to pass on in a future sale. And even then it would be difficult to recover more than a fraction of the cost of the upgrade parts in a part-out. But unlike the Mopar guys who quickly walk away from tribute cars, I always enjoy seeing a well done NSX-R tribute, even in LHD, at shows and meets. It might not be something I would ever do to a stock NSX but I'm glad there are owners out there who do.

I think what the panel was saying was modifications that improve the car might prove to be the exception to the untouched original cars.
I interpreted improvements as perhaps updates to things like more modern suspension, or brakes that improve the handling of the car but don't change the aesthetics of the original design.
I agree that any of the Comptech parts that were used in the Real Time racing versions would be seen as improvements and shouldn't detract from value.

I understand Regan's point about the price differences between say a stock 396 Chevelle and a built 396 Chevelle that started life as a 6 cylinder auto.
The two cars would perform and look the same but the collector price has no relation to the value.
My point was the price differences have been in place for a very long time for all marques so we have to accept it as the norm whether it makes sense or not.


When I see a picture of a 308/328 bodied Fiero or Testarossa bodied Corvette I wonder what kind of thinking went into those projects?
It's not about whether they are a wise investment, it's more about the statement they make about the owner's values.
I'm not saying a type-r bodied NSX is in the same category but all of them are trying to be something they're not.
Personally I'd prefer a car that is the real thing or nothing at all.

 

[angus]

Interesting analogy but am I correct to assume you're referring to the practice of taking an older model car and upgrading it to be like the newer model? If so that's very different from an NSX-R conversion. It would be more apt to compare these GM F-body upgrades to a pop-up headlight NSX that gets upgraded to a 2002+ model.

An NSX that has been upgraded to 2002+ specs is not as likely to fetch as high of value since it's attempting to mimic a car that is already available in the US. Why buy an NSX that's been upgraded to 2002+ specs when you can buy one of the real factory originals?

However the NSX-R was never available outside of Japan, so there are no originals in North America to buy. Yet despite this there continues to be a very obvious enthusiasm for the NSX-R outside of Japan. Both on this forum and other car forums people continue to talk about the NSX-R as if it were some legendary holy grail of NSX models. Thus it's believable to me that in the future when it becomes extremely difficult to source NSX-R specific parts I could see a well preserved NSX-R clone fetching a high price.

Ultimately price will be determined by rarity + demand. A near perfect NSX-R clone would score highest in these areas, a bone stock NSX would score second highest, and the typical modified NSX would score dead last. The majority of NSX's I see today have been modified by their owners, thus making a modified NSX the least rare. Additionally, modified NSX's are often the least desirable since one man's idea of an improvement/modification is often not shared by another man.

So yes I agree that bone stock is likely the safest bet if you want to see your car's value appreciate. But I can also see the merit in saying that certain rare modifications to the car such as full NSX-R conversion or a Mugen body kit may make the car worth even more in the future. Or put another way, some JDM parts are simply rarer than any bone stock NSX will ever be. If these ultra rare parts are also highly desirable then they will likely increase the value of your car-- e.g. original NSX-R seats.

Yes, yes and yes!

One big difference between the "old" (american classics etc.) cars that were modded, you'll see one distinct difference. This cars had and still do have even 50 years later, tons of parts aftermarket and repro that were available to be loaded up onto them - generally ruining their value (if compared to a mint original car).

I think that with the rarity of some aftermarket parts (and the cost, even if available) and the factory parts being discontinued, the current NSX market has already shown that people will buy modded cars for more money than a stock one - unless we are talking comparing a modded car to say, a Zanardi - even so - a car with the right mods may even exceed the selling price of the Zanardi if the right conditions exist.

I do think that cars which are "hacked" up will be a dicey situation down the road and some of these "interesting creations" we see could be in trouble for sure.

I think that years from now, people of my age and even younger will possibly be split into groups - purists on one side and the rest on the other...

Oh wait - that's what we have now.

- - - Updated - - -

When I see a picture of a 308/328 bodied Fiero or Testarossa bodied Corvette I wonder what kind of thinking went into those projects?
It's not about whether they are a wise investment, it's more about the statement they make about the owner's values.
I'm not saying a type-r bodied NSX is in the same category but all of them are trying to be something they're not.
Personally I'd prefer a car that is the real thing or nothing at all.

I can agree that those cars are hideous about 99% of the time - and I can only think that the people who do them are just doing it as a hobby, they must realize there's no real way to ever really end up with a proper clone.

Now - with the NSX-R the thing is that if someone wanted to, they could buy OEM parts and get the car pretty darn close to an NSX-R and people have done it. More Importantly for these people, they modded the car to add those NSX-R items that really matter to them - perhaps the parts they like the most.

Remember the NSX-R is mostly appearance and handling - not much, if any power adders.

 

[greenberet]

... with the NSX-R the thing is that if someone wanted to, they could buy OEM parts and get the car pretty darn close to an NSX-R and people have done it.

Regarding what sets a Type-R apart from a run of the mill NSX, Kaz (one of the engineers who originally designed the NSX) listed some of the differences on the NSX Club of Britain's website here and here.

It sounds like you'll never be able to modify a regular NSX to be a correct Type-R, regardless how hard you try.

 

[angus]

Regarding what sets a Type-R apart from a run of the mill NSX, Kaz (one of the engineers who originally designed the NSX) listed some of the differences on the NSX Club of Britain's website here and here.

It sounds like you'll never be able to modify a regular NSX to be a correct Type-R, regardless how hard you try.

As I said you can get visually close to it and people have. I think there is a lot of debate about wether the majority of NSX-R parts are just "fiddly" -

That being said, the NSX-R seems to be an excellent version but the matter of how "good" it is I fear has little to do with it's value.

 

[LookingForMyImola]

The original NSX-R has been legally available for import in Canada since 2006/7ish. I've yet to see one or hear of one being here. I don't think people are willing to pay that much for them, when for the same price you can get something with twice the power, modern creature comforts along with modern technology and without the bone jarring ride. The Type R wasn't made to be a daily driven vehicle- it was made to destroy race tracks. That makes it even more rare to find a potential buyer here, across the pond.

 

[NZNick]

remember the zanardi was a factory S for the US market.

but doesn't have the Type S seats or steering wheel......

 

[docjohn]

but doesn't have the Type S seats or steering wheel......

......for the US market

 

[TomCat]

Here's an example of why I feel the collector car market is bogus.

The "market" is just people like you and me voting with their $s.
Nobody seems to like Wal-mart or the Kardasians...but somebody is making them rich.
I watch the "pro" car collectors hit and miss...so I think the best advise is to buy what YOU like and YOU value, if it appreciates, that's just icing on the cake!

 

[RPM217]

The "market" is just people like you and me voting with their $s.
Nobody seems to like Wal-mart or the Kardasians...but somebody is making them rich.
I watch the "pro" car collectors hit and miss...so I think the best advise is to buy what YOU like and YOU value, if it appreciates, that's just icing on the cake!

Exactly, I don't watch reality TV, but damn, a lot of people do. I don't "appreciate" "abstract art", many do. If you "appreciate" an item, whether it be car or art, or performance art, enjoy it for what it means to you. If "it appreciates", that's just as Tom put it, Icing on the cake. I could give a "rats ass" what other people think of my NSX, or GT, I enjoy looking at them, driving them, cleaning them, etc. The fact that they are both climbing in value currently, is irrelevant, since I have no intention of selling either.

 

[TomCat]

Exactly, I don't watch reality TV, but damn, a lot of people do. I don't "appreciate" "abstract art", many do. If you "appreciate" an item, whether it be car or art, or performance art, enjoy it for what it means to you. If "it appreciates", that's just as Tom put it, Icing on the cake. I could give a "rats ass" what other people think of my NSX, or GT, I enjoy looking at them, driving them, cleaning them, etc. The fact that they are both climbing in value currently, is irrelevant, since I have no intention of selling either.

PLUS...I lost so much (paper) value on my BMW 850i that my portfolio is probably "balanced"!

 

[The Kid]

PLUS...I lost so much (paper) value on my BMW 850i that my portfolio is probably "balanced"!

Unless your 8 series is a CSI 6 speed, those things are red hot right now!

 

[TomCat]

Unless your 8 series is a CSI 6 speed, those things are red hot right now!

Unfortunately not, regular 850!

Additionally, I saw a resto-mod 63 Vette go for stupid money on Mecum this weekend...which turned my "original only" world on its ear.
The more I learn, the less I know...Jay Leno just got a slightly modified Pantera (as opposed to an original).

 

[tof]

Resto-mods seem to be a phenomenon that is limited to the muscle-car scene. Those cars were so bad in every respect other than looks and power, they need a modern suspension, brakes, tires, etc. etc. to enjoy them as drivers.

Also, there always seems to be plenty of stupid money in the room when old 'vettes hit the block.

 

[brandonsan]

As someone who deal with specialty and collector cars for a living, Mods destroy a cars value. Collectors want original specimens.

Sorry I have to disagree with this. If the car is modded corectly, and tastefully it may get more money. I think you if you have body mods and radio mods that aren't easily reversible that will kill the value. Here are a few examples that justify the contrary:

Look at the Eagle GB website. They specialize is Jaguar E Types. I lot of the cars they sell have been coverted to EFI, have large brake kits, 5 speed gearboxes and incorrect wider wire wheels (the wire wheels they use look completely different from the originals). Eagle sells these cars for a lot more than the typical market price and they sell quite well. These cars are so much better to drive than the completely stock cars.

I sold my 1967 Austin Mini Cooper S for $40,000.00 a few months ago. The average selling price for a car like mine is 25K-30K. My car was modded with a 5 speed, LSD, EFI, stand alone engine ECU, adjustable shocks, ported head and a big bore engine. I even had the original hyrdo suspension removed in favor of modern coil springs. I had at least 10 people in line for this car willing to pay what I was asking.

I sold my 1972 Triumph TR6 for 5000.00 above typlical value when I sold it. Again heavilly modified (stronger frame, brakes, lowering springs, Koni shocks, triple carb coverssion etc)

E30 M3. They are highly desirable with the Turner 2.5 stroker kit, upgraded shocks etc. I almost boiught one a few months ago with a stroker engine and it sold failry quick for 38K. This car was not perfect as far as the paint either but it had a lot of other things going for it.

Look at the Singer Porsches selling for 300-500K. Once again heavily modified air cooled collectible cars.


As the NSX ages the performance starts to diminish compared to modern cars. The average sports sedan has comparable acceleration to a stock NA1. As these cars age it will only get worse. I think if you have a stroker engine, CTSC or maybe SOS twins it will not affect the value as long as the work is clean.

However I will agree that some mods will destroy a cars value. It depends on what the mods are.

 

[Lostbuckeye]

As the NSX ages the performance starts to diminish compared to modern cars. The average sports sedan has comparable acceleration to a stock NA1. As these cars age it will only get worse. I think if you have a stroker engine, CTSC or maybe SOS twins it will not affect the value as long as the work is clean.

However I will agree that some mods will destroy a cars value. It depends on what the mods are.

+1. The main complaint against the NSX within a couple years of its release was its lack of HP compared to its rivals. Anyone whose driven a 500 HP Lambo, Ferrari and a supercharged or turbo NSX will attest to this. The NSX was engineered for more power within reason.

Given the fact that so few NSXs were produced and the undisputed opinion of its significance in automotive history, I believe it should continue increase in value so long as the modifications are to improve it's performance without cutting up the car or sacrificing reliability and installed as if Honda had done it at the factory. I just recently had the SOS Twins installed in such a way. My car still looks 100% stock because I fell in love with the way the car looked from the factory. To be honest, I didn't buy my car for its collectability or as an investment. But, I still want to stay true to the NSX design. And if it continues to appreciate, that's just icing on the cake.