The Next Collectables

[tof]

Hagerty Seminars hosted a roundtable on the generational shift in car collecting at Monterey last weekend. In this video the panel discusses current collectibles that will continue to resonate with the next generation of collectors, cars that will likely fall out of favor, and finally, cars that will become more collectible. They discuss the NSX starting around 56:05. Stay with it through the mention of the CTS-V as they do get back to the NSX.

NSX's are referred to as "gold plated collectibles", "the thinking man's 308 Ferrari", and "about as affordable blue chip car that I can think of".

Also discussed is the first gen Skyline 2000 GTR, one of which was on the auction block that weekend with a pre-auction estimate of $125K-$175K. Is this the next Toyota 2000GT? (Grab one now and watch it follow the iconic Toyota to the million mark in 5 years?)

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/...erational-shift-in-car-collecting/?refer=news

 

[BB]

Some other cool comments from the video (paraphrased).....

The NSX appeals to all generations.
The NSX is one of the few cars that can be worth more modified than stock.

I already knew this first comment since I am continually surprised how both Millennials and Baby Boomers display a lot of interest in my car. However I didn't expect to hear the later comment, but they explained this is due to the availability of rare JDM only parts that you can use for modifying the car. I suppose I now have the justification I need for my complete NSX-R conversion. :biggrin:

 

[JD Cross]

I noted the comments about modified values centered on installing relatively rare JDM parts.
The same speaker talked about the base version, the Senna version, a fully optioned version, and a race version so I don't think he was that familiar with NSX's.
He also talked about a full Mugen NSX which I've not hear about.

I wonder about building an NSX-R replica.
Using all oem parts might cost, what $30K?
I'm not sure anyone would pay that on resale because it's not the real thing and without the type-R engine is likely only marginally faster than a stock original.
Most collectors I know don't want replicas however perhaps the younger buyers would go for a replica but would they pay for or could they afford a $30 K premium?

It looks today like about 50% of the cost of modifications is gone before the modified car is driven.
Maybe that will change in time but it's a potentially expensive gamble.

But some owners may just want to drive a replica regardless of the cost and if they are not concerned about getting their modification costs back that's great.

 

[tof]

Most collectors I know don't want replicas

JD, I believe the current euphemism is "tribute cars". At least that's what replica owners call them. :wink:

I also found it funny when the panelist talked about "Senna versions", and "fully optioned versions". I suppose he might have gotten his drivers mixed up. And I guess the coupe would be a base model while a "fully optioned" NSX-T would include both the fitted luggage AND the cd changer.

 

[docjohn]

mugen had a full catalogue of parts including aero for the nsx.

 

[JD Cross]

mugen had a full catalogue of parts including aero for the nsx.

Thanks Doc, didn't know.
So the panel guy is suggesting that if you loaded an NSX up with Mugen aftermarket parts it may increase it's value.

- - - Updated - - -

JD, I believe the current euphemism is "tribute cars".

You are right and "tribute" does sound better than "replica" no?

 

[BB]

I agree with you that a partial NSX-R conversion is highly unlikely to pay for itself at resale today. But what if the conversion was completely and meticulously done with all genuine Honda parts and the car was put up for sale 20 years from now? I could see it possibly fetching a very high price. Even today look at the crazy prices people are willing a pay for a used set of genuine NSX-R seats.

I think the point to take home is that there's a greater level of acceptance for a modified NSX relative to that of say a modified Ferrari. Multiple times in the video the panel members mentioned the Fast and Furious franchise and talked about how Japanese car culture has the understanding that you're supposed to modify the car in order to improve it. That so many NSX owners on this very forum are modifying their rare cars is testament to this. These current owners are the ones who are driving up prices, not some white shirt with black blazer wearing Pebble Beach-esque car collector.

The unanswered question is when the Fast and Furious generation becomes the new car collectors will they continue the tradition of only desiring fully original cars? Or will they say "wow it's an NSX with the rare Mugen body kit" and then be willing to pay top dollar for it?

 

[docjohn]

mugen has the reputation and honda affiliation to be desirable to those who care about such things......who knows if the plethora of other jdm tuner's wares will be so.

 

[heySkippy]

I agree with you that a partial NSX-R conversion is highly unlikely to pay for itself at resale today. But what if the conversion was completely and meticulously done with all genuine Honda parts

How much will it cost to get that steering wheel moved to the right side?

 

[JD Cross]

But what if the conversion was completely and meticulously done with all genuine Honda parts and the car was put up for sale 20 years from now? I could see it possibly fetching a very high price. Even today look at the crazy prices people are willing a pay for a used set of genuine NSX-R seats. I think the point to take home is that there's a greater level of acceptance for a modified NSX relative to that of say a modified Ferrari. ?

You make a good point, however looking at the broad picture I still think you end up with a completely and meticulously done "tribute "car.
Anyone buying it will know that either of the real NSX-R series were right hand drive, had a special engine and weren't imported to N America.
There's a real 94 type-r for sale in Japan now at $98 K USD.
If you took a good white 94 coupe worth $30 K, added another $30K in oem type-r parts, perhaps another $10 K for paint and installation costs you'd have a $70K "tribute" car
The questions is, as a buyer, would you rather pay $70K for a "tribute" or $98K for the real type-r with the correct engine?

I think the Collector would buy the real type-r as the engine alone is worth the $30k difference never mind the "real" and rarity factor.
Do you think the Fast and Furious fan would pay $70K for a "tribute"
The F and F (as Doc calls them) buyer seems to be a younger demographic and do they have the kind of wealth to pay $70K today?

I'm not sure I'm a good example but I belong to a previous F and F generation.
We took countless Tri-Five Chevs and 60's Camaros and F and F'd them.
None of them that remain are worth what a stock model of the same years sells for today.

Perhaps the best example is the vaunted Mopar Hemi powered muscle cars.
Many "tribute" Mopar muscle cars were built that looked like Hemi powered models but without the special Hemi engine.
The owners of real big block Mopar muscle cars would come for a look at the rare Hemi, realize it's a fake and walk away.
Most would wonder what kind of person would spend at that money making a car look like a super rare muscle car.

I do know from my perspective (I'm retired) I would be embarrassed to drive a fake Hemi muscle car, but proud to own the real thing.
I'd be just as embarrassed to have to type-r "tribute".
Every NSX owner in the land would know it's not real and that would say something about me as the owner.

Not sure if my view from "old guy" eyes will apply to NSX's down the road.
I do know that time has shown "tribute" cars don't hold the same value as the genuine article.

 

[BB]

I'm not sure I'm a good example but I belong to a previous F and F generation.
We took countless Tri-Five Chevs and 60's Camaros and F and F'd them.
None of them that remain are worth what a stock model of the same years sells for today.

Interesting analogy but am I correct to assume you're referring to the practice of taking an older model car and upgrading it to be like the newer model? If so that's very different from an NSX-R conversion. It would be more apt to compare these GM F-body upgrades to a pop-up headlight NSX that gets upgraded to a 2002+ model.

An NSX that has been upgraded to 2002+ specs is not as likely to fetch as high of value since it's attempting to mimic a car that is already available in the US. Why buy an NSX that's been upgraded to 2002+ specs when you can buy one of the real factory originals?

However the NSX-R was never available outside of Japan, so there are no originals in North America to buy. Yet despite this there continues to be a very obvious enthusiasm for the NSX-R outside of Japan. Both on this forum and other car forums people continue to talk about the NSX-R as if it were some legendary holy grail of NSX models. Thus it's believable to me that in the future when it becomes extremely difficult to source NSX-R specific parts I could see a well preserved NSX-R clone fetching a high price.

Ultimately price will be determined by rarity + demand. A near perfect NSX-R clone would score highest in these areas, a bone stock NSX would score second highest, and the typical modified NSX would score dead last. The majority of NSX's I see today have been modified by their owners, thus making a modified NSX the least rare. Additionally, modified NSX's are often the least desirable since one man's idea of an improvement/modification is often not shared by another man.

So yes I agree that bone stock is likely the safest bet if you want to see your car's value appreciate. But I can also see the merit in saying that certain rare modifications to the car such as full NSX-R conversion or a Mugen body kit may make the car worth even more in the future. Or put another way, some JDM parts are simply rarer than any bone stock NSX will ever be. If these ultra rare parts are also highly desirable then they will likely increase the value of your car-- e.g. original NSX-R seats.

 

[RPM217]

If you're buying the car as an investment, than stock, or able to return to stock is preferable. If you're buying the car to drive/enjoy it, than whatever you do, to enhance your enjoyment of the car, is money well spent.

 

[synth19]

The Hakosuka GTR @ RM Auctions for WAYYYYYY more then expected, $220,000 USD. Expect pricing for all Hako's to be going up (GTR's and clones).

 

[JD Cross]

Interesting analogy but am I correct to assume you're referring to the practice of taking an older model car and upgrading it to be like the newer model? If so that's very different from an NSX-R conversion. It would be more apt to compare these GM F-body upgrades to a pop-up headlight NSX that gets upgraded to a 2002+ model.
Ultimately price will be determined by rarity + demand.

Modifying the early cars was more about putting a V8 in a 6 cylinder car, bigger wheels and tires, floor shift instead of column shift, manual instead of automatic. Four speed trans instead of 3 speed, paint jobs, change in seat material from cloth to vinyl (Naughahyde ) etc. There was no updating as the body parts weren't compatible from year to year. I suppose a person could have converted a whole 55 Chev to a 57 Chev as the chassis were similar but there was no point as 6 cylinder donor cars from all years were plentiful. It was more about mods to go faster or look different, very much the same as today.

I agree price is determined by supply and demand.
However just because a car is rare, doesn't mean it's value is high.

Let's look at an example from Ferrari, the 288 GTO.
Produced in small numbers, similar to a type-r.

A 308/328 owner can buy a body kit and the other needed parts to convert his car to a 288 GTO clone.
This is essentially what you are considering doing to your base NSX.

The 288 clone is rare indeed, even rarer than a real 288 GTO.
And a RHD type-r clone would also be more rare than a real type-r.
A LHD type-r clone would be rarer still, maybe one or two?
So the rarity factor is there for both the 288 and LHD and RHD type-r clones.

Now how about demand?

The first question might be how many potential Ferrari GTO owners would want a 288 clone rather than the real thing?
Not many judging by the price you see on the few 288 clones out there.

Then how many potential NSX owners might want a RHD type-r clone which would be the closest comparison to the 288 clone.
I've no idea if anyone in Japan (or other RHD market) has done this so I can't answer that.

Lastly how many potential NSX buyers would want a LHD type-r clone?
You would be a potential buyer for a LHD type-r clone as you're considering building one.
Would you pay a large premium for a LHD clone?

My view is anything done to a car that reduces the number of potential buyers will also reduce it's value.
I think that's why stock units tend to hold their value because they appeal to the largest possible buyer base.
As you mention, modified versions may appeal to a smaller buyer base and so tend to have less value.

Building a correct type-r clone would be a fun project and as you have a donor car you can do it quite readily.
However, and I may be a voice of one here, I would be cautious on thinking you can build one and if/when it comes time to sell, find a surplus of buyers bidding up the price of your clone.
I wouldn't confuse demand for type-r seats, or type-r shifter knobs with a type-r clone, but I'm sure you could part out your clone and do well.

If you are wanting to build your type-r for your personal pleasure in driving a type-r clone then as RPM217 says above, it's your money well spent.

 

[RYU]

I agree with you that a partial NSX-R conversion is highly unlikely to pay for itself at resale today. But what if the conversion was completely and meticulously done with all genuine Honda parts and the car was put up for sale 20 years from now? I could see it possibly fetching a very high price. Even today look at the crazy prices people are willing a pay for a used set of genuine NSX-R seats.

I think the point to take home is that there's a greater level of acceptance for a modified NSX relative to that of say a modified Ferrari. Multiple times in the video the panel members mentioned the Fast and Furious franchise and talked about how Japanese car culture has the understanding that you're supposed to modify the car in order to improve it. That so many NSX owners on this very forum are modifying their rare cars is testament to this. These current owners are the ones who are driving up prices, not some white shirt with black blazer wearing Pebble Beach-esque car collector.

The unanswered question is when the Fast and Furious generation becomes the new car collectors will they continue the tradition of only desiring fully original cars? Or will they say "wow it's an NSX with the rare Mugen body kit" and then be willing to pay top dollar for it?

If you build an NSX-R clone of the early 91-94 I can potentially see the value increasing. Though, they are the least desirable NSX-Rs unlike the 02+ NSX-Rs. This means building one out of any USDM Targa means converting a Targa frame to a coupe. Anyone who really knows what's involved will always have that in the back of their heads casting a shadow of doubt. The Targa to Coupe conversion is an intense process and leaves to question how well the welds was done as one of many examples. There are also nuances to a coupe's shell that will never be the same as a Targa (i.e. the engine bay and how the triangle bar mounts). I just don't see it being all too worthwhile. Will you find an 02+ coupe to start with? How about the rumored "special" NSX-R engine?

If you want to invest with a 20yr year return in mind I think it's better to import a true NSX-R from Japan.

Another extreme example is to take a page from history. Take a look at all the clones of any Chevy SS model. The clones never come close to the original in price no matter how well they were done. Albeit OEM SS parts are usually readily available unlike JDM NSX-R parts but I still don't see the value argument of an NSX-R clone here.

 

[JD Cross]

The Hakosuka GTR @ RM Auctions for WAYYYYYY more then expected, $220,000 USD. Expect pricing for all Hako's to be going up (GTR's and clones).

Wasn't the RM car a stock unit with aftermarket wheels and steering wheel but with the oem wheels and steering wheel included?
Wouldn't this suggest the stock units command the best value?
Where have you seen similar high prices for clones?

 

[synth19]

Wasn't the RM car a stock unit with aftermarket wheels and steering wheel but with the oem wheels and steering wheel included?
Wouldn't this suggest the stock units command the best value?
Where have you seen similar high prices for clones?

As far as I know, you are correct. The Hakosuka GTR is extremely rare. However, I never expected it to fetch over 200k. With regards to clones (hakosuka's with a GTR "look", but are not actual GTR's), the price will never be that high but they will definitely go up due to the rarity of them in decent condition My 72 GTX Hakosuka for example is just one of less then 30 in the country. Prior to the auction, the clones have been going for 38k-55k or so. The prices have only been going up.

 

[The Kid]

I find it amazing that these cars are worth so much, Toyota 2000GT's are now million dollar cars. I remember before I bought my 911 I was debating getting a 996 or 993 Turbo, both were priced around the same. I asked my wife her opinion and she said get the older one. I said I have one car with old technology already, and bought a 996. Love the car but probably the worst financial decision I could have made. The 993 I wanted was $75k at the time, now you cant buy one for under $125k

 

[heySkippy]

If I was much concerned about the value of my NSX, I wouldn't have put 125,000 miles on it.

 

[docjohn]

imo the most "collectable" nsx in the usa market would be a zanardi......some day one of those will surely be the first to crack into 6 figures at auction

 

[The Kid]

imo the most "collectable" nsx would be a zanardi......

John,

I'd have to agree. Although it bothers me that I walk the fine line between collecting and enjoying. The "collectable" aspect has gotten the better of me and I havent driven it in years. The values just keep climbing. In the past 6 months Ive had an offer from Japan and another from the UK that almost had me thinking. Ive also added an 03 Cobra to my stable with 1k miles. I feel like those cars are going to get crazy. Who knows?

Regards,
The Kid

 

[docjohn]

how many of those 03 cobras were made?

 

[The Kid]

how many of those 03 cobras were made?

SVT produced 2,003 units of the Anniversary model. 1,003 coupe models. Not really an american car guy but I always loved them. Still hunting for all my Japanese favorites, 3000GT/Stealth, RX7, Supra and cars of that genre. I like the hunt of rarity, originality and ultra low miles.

 

[docjohn]

lol...well then you are a collector:wink:

 

[Meeyatch1]

I am still kicking myself because I had the opportunity to buy that 52 mile, never titled, 1991 NSX a couple of years ago at $55k and passed. The NSX was at the bottom of its market, and I just could not justify $55k on an NSX that I knew I would never drive, and was not sure how the values would go. Less than a year later and the values were on the climb....fast!! I have been kicking myself ever since. I also kick myself for passing on (2) Formula Red early NSXs that were for sale with 2k miles on them, and the sellers were begging to get $32k for them. Now they are worth almost twice that. ARGH!!