The Negatives of the NSX 2.0

[N Spec]

Are you sure that it is not yet another implementation that is similar to IMA?

Except that instead of been an e-motor/flywheel assembly that mates with a traditional clutch it is a separate piece since the DCT has it's own internal components.

If that is the case the power would be delivered on the same driveshaft that ends up going to the DCT.

IMA has been there since day 1 with Honda Hybrids starting with the Insight a while back.

I stand corrected. I went back after posting and looked at the drawings again and it is similar to IMA as you posted. My guess is that this is how they are overcoming/masking the turbolag in the early RPMs of the ICE. I can't see the rear motor assisting at all during peak RPMs/power delivery and thus will not assist in nearing top speed at all. But I could be wrong again as I'm no expert. I think it will just aid in a very nice broad torque curve on the dyno that is not normally seen by high revving Hondas.

The two front motors however are one speed and individually linked.

 

[jwmelvin]

I can't see the rear motor assisting at all during peak RPMs/power delivery and thus will not assist in nearing top speed at all.

That appears to be exactly right. The total system power is the sum of the ICE and the front electric motors. Coincidence? Since the front motors use a single gearing, perhaps the front motors are geared so their peak power happens at the same vehicle speed as the peak power of the rear engine in one particular gear. That would mean that the peak system power is only achieved in one of the many gears.

 

[N Spec]

That appears to be exactly right. The total system power is the sum of the ICE and the front electric motors. Coincidence? Since the front motors use a single gearing, perhaps the front motors are geared so their peak power happens at the same vehicle speed as the peak power of the rear engine in one particular gear. That would mean that the peak system power is only achieved in one of the many gears.

I saw that that too and thought the same thing even if the total torque sum does not add up properly. I would be interested to hear eventually and finally when the emotors are active and engaged under which varying conditions/parameters.

 

[Valkyrie Pilot]

That appears to be exactly right. The total system power is the sum of the ICE and the front electric motors. Coincidence? Since the front motors use a single gearing, perhaps the front motors are geared so their peak power happens at the same vehicle speed as the peak power of the rear engine in one particular gear. That would mean that the peak system power is only achieved in one of the many gears.

I think you are right though it is off by 1 HP (572 vs. 573). Its interesting that this setup does not allow the back motor to add power to the ICE. This seems to be a contrast from the 918 set up which does add the 154 HP rear motor to the total to get 887.

Can someone explain what the differences are in the two designs (besides $690K in price).

 

[docjohn]

when did we start calling the engine or motor ice...you guys seem so hip with the new lexicon...

 

[liftcontrol]

"Honda wants the NSX to be an everyday supercar, but by definition, a supercar isn't an everyday affair. It's a special thing reserved for special days, and if you buy one, you never want to quietly tip toe out of a valet stand under electric power. You want to rattle the crystal on the hotel roof. You want to throw open the garage doors on a gorgeous day and bend the asphalt to your will. If there's compromise, you want it in the pursuit of performance, not livability. There was a time when you felt a little NSX in your Accord. Now there's too much Accord in your NSX."

Road and Track

 

[N Spec]

"Honda wants the NSX to be an everyday supercar, but by definition, a supercar isn't an everyday affair. It's a special thing reserved for special days, and if you buy one, you never want to quietly tip toe out of a valet stand under electric power. You want to rattle the crystal on the hotel roof. You want to throw open the garage doors on a gorgeous day and bend the asphalt to your will. If there's compromise, you want it in the pursuit of performance, not livability. There was a time when you felt a little NSX in your Accord. Now there's too much Accord in your NSX."

Road and Track

People who lived with and daily drive the NSX would see the author has no idea what he's talking about. There's plenty of Accord in the first gen NSX and it's still beloved

 

[fastaussie]

"Honda wants the NSX to be an everyday supercar, but by definition, a supercar isn't an everyday affair. It's a special thing reserved for special days, and if you buy one, you never want to quietly tip toe out of a valet stand under electric power. You want to rattle the crystal on the hotel roof. You want to throw open the garage doors on a gorgeous day and bend the asphalt to your will. If there's compromise, you want it in the pursuit of performance, not livability. There was a time when you felt a little NSX in your Accord. Now there's too much Accord in your NSX."

Road and Track

i agree 100%

People who lived with and daily drive the NSX would see the author has no idea what he's talking about. There's plenty of Accord in the first gen NSX and it's still beloved

so missing the point...

 

[liftcontrol]

People who lived with and daily drive the NSX would see the author has no idea what he's talking about. There's plenty of Accord in the first gen NSX and it's still beloved

I have had two 1st gen NSXs and loved them both.
From the way it looked, the doors, the seats, the steering, the clutch and feel of the shifting of the gears, the sound of the engine, the place the engine was mounted, the looks it got from people, I never felt that there was much of an Accord in the 1st gen at all, except for the fact that it was a HONDA.

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag154/Zaki2004/DSCN1304_zpslot1sqtu.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSCN1304_zpslot1sqtu.jpg"/></a>

Not much of an Accord at all

 

[N Spec]

I have had two 1st gen NSXs and loved them both.
From the way it looked, the doors, the seats, the steering, the clutch and feel of the shifting of the gears, the sound of the engine, the place the engine was mounted, the looks it got from people, I never felt that there was much of an Accord in the 1st gen at all, except for the fact that it was a HONDA.

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag154/Zaki2004/DSCN1304_zpslot1sqtu.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSCN1304_zpslot1sqtu.jpg"/></a>

Not much of an Accord at all

What you describe will be exhibited by the 2nd gen also. The mid engine, exclusive engine and performance levels, looks, sound, handling, etc. The author was inferring that he thinks it drives like an Accord or has the personality of one.

I drove my first NSX-T on 300+ roadtrips every month to College and back, packed with a 32 inch LCD TV and plenty of other college stuff. I daily drove it for ~4 years, averaging 12K miles a year. Aside from the looks, and low seating position, it was very much like an Accord or any other mundane car on the road when I was driving like a civilized person and teenage fanboys weren't chasing after it for pics. I never had any hiccups on reliability. Much more reliable and civilized than my previous Twin Turbo 300ZX that I tried to commute daily. The long road trips were comfortable and I got excellent gas mileage. Most of my classmates had Accords or Preludes. They were surprised that my NSX behaved very much like their own and required the same amount of maintenance if not less.

So you can be a purist about what a "Supercar" is with no compromises. However, the first NSX had many compromises and people seem to forget that now when comparing it to the 2nd gen. Bugatti didn't believe in compromises like gaskets and believed two mating pieces of hardware should be fitted perfectly. How practical and wasteful do you think that no-compromise mindset will go?

 

[Tom239]

I once brought all four wheels off my NSX to a shop along with tires for mounting.
When I picked them up, the guy who had done the work asked me which Honda has rear wheel drive.

 

[fastaussie]

What you describe will be exhibited by the 2nd gen also. The mid engine, exclusive engine and performance levels, looks, sound, handling, etc. The author was inferring that he thinks it drives like an Accord or has the personality of one.

So you can be a purist about what a "Supercar" is with no compromises. However, the first NSX had many compromises and people seem to forget that now when comparing it to the 2nd gen.

compromise is exactly the point. you're starting to get it.

the "too much Accord in your NSX" statement when applied to the first gen referred mainly to its reliability and livability. which aren't huge knocks really, to most they were huge pluses.

with the second gen, i think it sounds even more compromised. granted, everyone is making massive generalisations (including you N Spec) because it hasn't been compared to any of its rivals yet. but in performance, i think the second gen is decidedly less Super the Honda's first attempt.

the steering feel is non-existent
the engine noise is certainly nothing to brag about
the looks aren't especially awesome nor as striking as the first car (relative to its rivals, the era)
and it's pretty damn overweight, with not huge power


it's been said many times, too much compromise...

 

[Superfluous]

it's been said many times, too much compromise...

Its been said many times . . . by you . . . over and over and over again. The horse is dead.

 

[fastaussie]

yet the conversation continues, in a thread entitled "The Negatives of the NSX 2.0" no less.

how peculiar?

Its been said many times . . . by you . . . over and over and over again. The horse is dead.

it'll get said again too, and now most likely just for you... :wink:

 

[BB]

and it's pretty damn overweight, with not huge power

The only competitors that are significantly lighter than the new NSX are the 570S and 488. Nearly all the other direct competitors are rather heavy too....

GT-R (3840 lbs)
911 Turbo (3671 lbs)
AMG GT S (3677 lbs)
F-Type R (4088 lbs)
R8 V10 coupe (3587 lbs)
R8 V10 spyder (3803 lbs)

So while I'll agree that Honda did not deliver a similar lightweight formula to match the original NSX, you're completely wrong to suggest the new car is not competitive in this area.

 

[fastaussie]

The only competitors that are significantly lighter than the new NSX are the 570S and 488. Nearly all the other direct competitors are rather heavy too....

GT-R (3840 lbs)
911 Turbo (3671 lbs)
AMG GT S (3677 lbs)
F-Type R (4088 lbs)
R8 V10 coupe (3587 lbs)
R8 V10 spyder (3803 lbs)

So while I'll agree that Honda did not deliver a similar lightweight formula to match the original NSX, you're completely wrong to suggest this new car is not competitive in this area.

read below again...

the "too much Accord in your NSX" statement when applied to the first gen referred mainly to its reliability and livability. which aren't huge knocks really, to most they were huge pluses.

with the second gen, i think it sounds even more compromised. granted, everyone is making massive generalisations (including you N Spec) because it hasn't been compared to any of its rivals yet. but in performance, i think the second gen is decidedly less Super the Honda's first attempt.

the steering feel is non-existent
the engine noise is certainly nothing to brag about
the looks aren't especially awesome nor as striking as the first car (relative to its rivals, the era)
and it's pretty damn overweight, with not huge power

i'm comparing it to the original NSX...

 

[BB]

i'm comparing it to the original NSX...

Fair enough. However the NSX was never intended to be Honda's 911, a design that continuously evolves in order to satisfy repeat buyers. It's more like Honda's 918, a halo car showcasing what the company can do. A halo car intended to showcase today's technology is going to be very different than one that was designed in the 80's. Of course we should be asking the question if the technology uniqueness goal of the new NSX has managed to create a good supercar or not. Chris Harris's review in Evo said the car does not disappoint. Thus I'm inclined to assume that Honda has accomplished their goal at least reasonably well.

I think many people (myself included) would prefer to see Honda design a car similar to the 650S or 488-- i.e. lightweight with a simple V8 Turbo. But if Honda had gone down this route, what would differentiate the car from its competitors? Supercar reliability has improved since the 80's. To simply do what many others in this price bracket are doing and place a less prestigious Honda badge on it would serve no purpose.

 

[Valkyrie Pilot]

Fair enough. However the NSX was never intended to be Honda's 911, a design that continuously evolves in order to satisfy repeat buyers. It's more like Honda's 918, a halo car showcasing what the company can do. A halo car intended to showcase today's technology is going to be very different than one that was designed in the 80's. Of course we should be asking the question if the technology uniqueness goal of the new NSX has managed to create a good supercar or not. Chris Harris's review in Evo said the car does not disappoint. Thus I'm inclined to assume that Honda has accomplished their goal at least reasonably well.

I think many people (myself included) would prefer to see Honda design a car similar to the 650S or 488-- i.e. lightweight with a simple V8 Turbo. But if Honda had gone down this route, what would differentiate the car from its competitors? Supercar reliability has improved since the 80's. To simply do what many others in this price bracket are doing and place a less prestigious Honda badge on it would serve no purpose.

Great points. Plus as the underdog entering this competive field with such established brands, Honda had to bring unconventional and paradigm changing thinking. That's what they used to do. That's who they were and they seem committed to getting back to it.

 

[sadlerau]

i agree 100%



so missing the point...

Actually I think it's you who is missing the point! But I doubt I'll ever convince you of that

 

[fastaussie]

Actually I think it's you who is missing the point! But I doubt I'll ever convince you of that

what's your point? give it a go...

I think many people (myself included) would prefer to see Honda design a car similar to the 650S or 488-- i.e. lightweight with a simple V8 Turbo. But if Honda had gone down this route, what would differentiate the car from its competitors? To simply do what many others in this price bracket are doing and place a less prestigious Honda badge on it would serve no purpose.

so you're thinking is that, Honda had to do something different, just to do something different from the other brands (by emulating Porsche's 918 platform)? otherwise the Honda badge can't compete with the Audi, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche name plates with normal execution of established technology?

in either performance or prestige? or both?

or do you mean that Honda as a forward thinking design company wants to pioneer new and intricate technologies to showcase their engineering might and prowess to the world in a unconventional way?

are Audi, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and Porsche models not distinguishable enough from each other already?

do they all need to be vastly different from each other, besides their very obviously different personalities and appearances?

and what single factor will be the biggest sales pitch for the new NSX to prospective Supercar buyers (excluding Honda fanboys)? the use of new technology, superior performance, or perhaps just an alternative to the status quo of the established brands?

 

[Midnight_Raven]

when did we start calling the engine or motor ice...you guys seem so hip with the new lexicon...

Must be all the formula 1 guys because they now call the engines ICE to differentiate it from the hyrbrid components within the same powerunit.

 

[liftcontrol]

what's your point? give it a go...



so you're thinking is that, Honda had to do something different, just to do something different from the other brands (by emulating Porsche's 918 platform)? otherwise the Honda badge can't compete with the Audi, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche name plates with normal execution of established technology?

in either performance or prestige? or both?

or do you mean that Honda as a forward thinking design company wants to pioneer new and intricate technologies to showcase their engineering might and prowess to the world in a unconventional way?

are Audi, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and Porsche models not distinguishable enough from each other already?

do they all need to be vastly different from each other, besides their very obviously different personalities and appearances?

and what single factor will be the biggest sales pitch for the new NSX to prospective Supercar buyers (excluding Honda fanboys)? the use of new technology, superior performance, or perhaps just an alternative to the status quo of the established brands?

Good points all.

It would appear that HONDA is trying to be all things to all people....except being true to it's own roots.

HONDA had a superlative sports car in the 1st Gen NSX, it had the formula right...light weight, exceptional handling, just enough power, great looks.
It has given up on that formula and taken the easy way out. It has gone the way of the GTR.

HONDA has jammed the car with all the gizmos and some more, made it heavy in the name of improving performance[?... they must have had the GTR as their main target and not the 458 as they had promised]. They promised the best handling super car ever...this pig despite all technology designed to do the opposite..... understeers! One of the greatest attributes of any sports car and one that the 1st Gen was particularly know for, steering feel....is gone; blame it on the need to make the steering wheel dead so as to not rip it out of your hands with all the torque being sent to the front wheels! So they added tech to achieve an end and took away a crucial quality that makes a desirable sports car!! That does not compute.

The greatest and most loved sports cars, irrespective of price, have one formula for success....they are light, they do not compromise their sporting nature in the name of convenience of the daily commute, they are great handling, they have excellent steering feel, they sound the part .... be it a 488, the 911 or the superb Miata.

The NSX was one of these superb machines. The NSX is now in the same category as the GTR. Amazing numbers, no soul.
Soichiro Honda would not approve of this car.

HONDA should have kept the NSX single minded and brutal. It should have an exhaust that would cause the neighborhood dogs to whimper. It should have an interior that would make you say wow every time you saw it. It should have a powerful engine and a light body that would make it a delight to handle and not under steer to keep the wannabe's safe, it should have a look that makes you want to wake up in the middle of the night and go look at it, once again.

HONDA should keep their formula of all things to all people, for their Accords, Civics , Pilots and Odysseys. They should have kept the NSX free. The NSX should have been the beast that stood apart. They have killed it.

 

[Hothonda]

The nice thing about the original NSX was the option list was minimal.....

My guess is the 2017 $156K base will turn into $175K for most builds +TTL

 

[docjohn]

.;......ok from now on lets call the ice the engine, and the electric stuff the motor....

 

[Bram]

.;......ok from now on lets call the ice the engine, and the electric stuff the motor....

Come on Doc, that is not keeping up with 2016 "lingo"

Bram