TEIN NSX Flex suspension - who's tried 'em and why do you like them?

tbromley said:
Captain, how can I thank you for doing research on spring rates - mighty nice. Looks like the Swifts are just a tad bit firmer than stock spring rates but they lower car probably just the right amount for me with a slight rake. As in .8" front and .6" rear, from what I understand from Billy on the height issue.

What has been troubling me is from what point is this drop measured? I mean since I put the 05 springs on my car - it's gotten higher??? The car originally is set at 5 1/2" above the pavement to the lower valence lip - now it's about 6 1/2". But that doesn't automatically mean that the Swifts will lower it from the 6 1/2" spot - it may mean it would lower it from the stock point of 5 1/2" - right? So thats why I am leaning very much to the Swifts instead of the Dalis which go to 1.25". Don't need that much lowering and I would also think that the spring rates would increase relatively as well. Does this make sense?
Click to expand...

I believe that the "drop" is measured from the factory measuring points from the service manual (see img attached below).... As I posted above, it looks like MJ is no longer carrying the Dali Springs. There are others that are available including Eibach, Tein & Tannabe. I believe the Eibach's are progressive too. I would choose a progressive if the car was "mainly" driven on the street.

Word of warning - the ones with a red light, he no longer carries. The ones with a yellow, out of stock. If MJ doesn't haven't in stock - DON'T ORDER, the chances of you getting them are slim to none and you will have to do a paypal dispute to get the $ back. I'm not going to get into a discussion of MJ and Dali, there are plenty of them here on Prime.....
 

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Tim-

I think you will be really happy with the Swift Sport. They are progressive also. The rates are:

F 146 - 218 lbs

R 157 - 258 lbs

Combined with your 2005 shocks, I think it will give you exactly what you are looking for. Before I realized I had CT springs (which have virtually the same rates/drop as the Swift), I was going to get these also.

Paul
 
When it comes to ride quality, performance, and whatnot, there's nothing like first hand experience. Maybe the OP can attend a few local meets and ask owners with various suspensions for rides.
 
Hey Guys,

Mac and Honcho,

My shocks were most definitely dead - I actually felt like that may have been the case when I bought the car and asked that they be checked - but nothing came of that. But then it was summer and it really wasn't till winter that I started noticing things didn't seem to be right. Maybe they were ok when checked in July or didn't seem to be bad under normal driving. You put them to the test over roads that have ups and downs and low spots where a car could bottom out - well it bottomed out - not something I thought it should have done. Then I had the ABS issue and it was put up on a lift when it came down the left front started creaking. I felt it was the shock. This was with the OEM shocks and springs and original 91 stuff on the car.

Eiffel said and others I talked with also confirmed my thinking that a 19 year old shock is toast. In my case I believe that situation could have been exasebated by having "lowering "progressive" springs". Actually though it may be that a stiffer spring weight might be easier on dampers - anyone care to comment on that? Maybe because you have stiffer springs the dampeners/shocks don't get as much exercise as they might get under stock springs. I don't know.

What I do knoww is that the Eibachs felt very firm and unforgiving - surely much, much stiffer than OEM. I put the OEM springs back in after my 800 mile trek from Houston to Nashville. I immediately experienced a much softer ride and much more to my liking.

So when I look at the charts furnished in this discussion by Billy - it is obvious that the springs in an 05 have rates that are apparently stiffer than a 91 had stock. I mean the higher the number the harder the spring....right. Check em out. My 05s are stiffer than my old stock 91s and someone said they were softer cause of the targa roof - not the springs.

Eibach doesn't even make progressive springs for street performance for the NSX any longer. I'm not sure what the spring rate is but I can tell you it is not any where near 91 OEM spring rates. I'm trying to find out from Eibach what they are now. I'll be back on that - if anyone has that info I'd be really interested to see it.

If I was betting, I'd bet they are stiffer than Zanardis. So spring rates for the Swifts are pretty close to the 05s I have. They just lower the car a bit. Give it a better looking stance and are a tad bit firmer by the stats given by Paul I think above in one of his posts. Check it out.

So to say that Eibachs are no more stiff than OEM is CRAAAAZY! No way.
 
tbromley said:
Hey Guys,

Mac and Honcho,

My shocks were most definitely dead - I actually felt like that may have been the case when I bought the car and asked that they be checked - but nothing came of that. But then it was summer and it really wasn't till winter that I started noticing things didn't seem to be right. Maybe they were ok when checked in July or didn't seem to be bad under normal driving. You put them to the test over roads that have ups and downs and low spots where a car could bottom out - well it bottomed out - not something I thought it should have done. Then I had the ABS issue and it was put up on a lift when it came down the left front started creaking. I felt it was the shock. This was with the OEM shocks and springs and original 91 stuff on the car.

Eiffel said and others I talked with also confirmed my thinking that a 19 year old shock is toast. In my case I believe that situation could have been exasebated by having "lowering "progressive" springs". Actually though it may be that a stiffer spring weight might be easier on dampers - anyone care to comment on that? Maybe because you have stiffer springs the dampeners/shocks don't get as much exercise as they might get under stock springs. I don't know.

What I do knoww is that the Eibachs felt very firm and unforgiving - surely much, much stiffer than OEM. I put the OEM springs back in after my 800 mile trek from Houston to Nashville. I immediately experienced a much softer ride and much more to my liking.

So when I look at the charts furnished in this discussion by Billy - it is obvious that the springs in an 05 have rates that are apparently stiffer than a 91 had stock. I mean the higher the number the harder the spring....right. Check em out. My 05s are stiffer than my old stock 91s and someone said they were softer cause of the targa roof - not the springs.

Eibach doesn't even make progressive springs for street performance for the NSX any longer. I'm not sure what the spring rate is but I can tell you it is not any where near 91 OEM spring rates. I'm trying to find out from Eibach what they are now. I'll be back on that - if anyone has that info I'd be really interested to see it.

If I was betting, I'd bet they are stiffer than Zanardis. So spring rates for the Swifts are pretty close to the 05s I have. They just lower the car a bit. Give it a better looking stance and are a tad bit firmer by the stats given by Paul I think above in one of his posts. Check it out.

So to say that Eibachs are no more stiff than OEM is CRAAAAZY! No way.
Click to expand...

Spring Rate Chart

Sorry, but I think the Eibachs (at least what they were selling) were progressive rate springs and really not much stiffer than OEM. And even at their final rate, they are about 1/2 the rate in the front of the Zanardis. And the Swifts are pretty much the same rate as the Eibachs but are NOT progressive.

Are you SURE you have Eibach springs?
 
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Jim is absolutely right about the Eibachs. They are roughly the same rates as OEM, so I doubt they blew out your shocks. However, according to Swift, their Sport springs for the NSX are progressive at the rates I described in my earlier post:

http://www.swiftsprings.com/file/ss.pdf

Swift does make linear rate race springs though.

CL65 Captain said:
Spring Rate Chart

Sorry, but I think the Eibachs (at least what they were selling) were progressive rate springs and really not much stiffer than OEM. And even at their final rate, they are about 1/2 the rate in the front of the Zanardis. And the Swifts are pretty much the same rate as the Eibachs but are NOT progressive.

Are you SURE you have Eibach springs?
Click to expand...
 
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CL65 Captain said:
Spring Rate Chart

Sorry, but I think the Eibachs (at least what they were selling) were progressive rate springs and really not much stiffer than OEM. And even at their final rate, they are about 1/2 the rate in the front of the Zanardis. And the Swifts are pretty much the same rate as the Eibachs but are NOT progressive.

Are you SURE you have Eibach springs?
Click to expand...

Ok so I just looked at the chart and especially the one with the percentage increase over stock - so how does 62% stiffer equate to about the same spring rates. I'm not sure I'm reading this right but that's what the comparison chart is saying to me. If you just look at the numbers the Pro Starts are less stiff than stock -

Eibachs in the first chart show 112% and stock OEM 91 show 77% - so you tell me how that equates to about the same. What is it I'm missing - I must not know how to read the chart.

So do you have a 91? Did you buy it with OEM shocks and springs and then did you buy Eibach Progressive springs? Have you really done a seat of the pants review. My stock springs on my old blown out shocks were much more compliant than the Eibachs.

I had the Eibachs in their original box - so I'm sure they're Eibachs and I trust the guy that sold me mine - he gave me the old OEM springs and they were in the Eibach box. I know they were Eibachs. I've talked to others that have had similar experiences with the Eibachs - not being "progressive" and not very compliant. So I'm not sure what to think. I don't notice any thing being stiffer about the 05s and yet the stock spring rates are 191 for the fronts - go figure.

I know what my butt tells me. I have compared them to stock - so I really am at a loss beyond this point.
 
tbromley said:
Ok so I just looked at the chart and especially the one with the percentage increase over stock - so how does 62% stiffer equate to about the same spring rates. I'm not sure I'm reading this right but that's what the comparison chart is saying to me. If you just look at the numbers the Pro Starts are less stiff than stock -

Eibachs in the first chart show 112% and stock OEM 91 show 77% - so you tell me how that equates to about the same. What is it I'm missing - I must not know how to read the chart.

So do you have a 91? Did you buy it with OEM shocks and springs and then did you buy Eibach Progressive springs? Have you really done a seat of the pants review. My stock springs on my old blown out shocks were much more compliant than the Eibachs.

I had the Eibachs in their original box - so I'm sure they're Eibachs and I trust the guy that sold me mine - he gave me the old OEM springs and they were in the Eibach box. I know they were Eibachs. I've talked to others that have had similar experiences with the Eibachs - not being "progressive" and not very compliant. So I'm not sure what to think. I don't notice any thing being stiffer about the 05s and yet the stock spring rates are 191 for the fronts - go figure.

I know what my butt tells me. I have compared them to stock - so I really am at a loss beyond this point.
Click to expand...

Eibachs start at 62% of OEM and finish at 127.27% of OEM. So they start softer and finish a little firmer. I have run 1000 lb, 800 lb, 600 lb, 450 lb springs at one time or another on the front with my Koni 3012 (Comptech Pro Coilover) as well as the JRZ damper. And I can tell you that 30% firmer than OEM is NOT a lot - 500% is. Even 200% of the OEM rate (ie the Zanardis) is not that firm of a ride. I don't know what to tell you about the Eibachs because I haven't ridden on them, but I have been in a car and driven it on the track that had the Dails which were almost identical rates to the Eibach but with a slightly firmer finishing rate and it was OEM like ride or better. But then again - it didn't have dampers that were blown. ;)

The 112% is the front/rear split between the rates. So the fronts are 12% stiffer than the rears.

Most of the track oriented setups run a stiffer front spring - except the Japanese aftermarket mfgs. So the OEM setups (91 170/220 = 77%) uses a softer front spring than rear - the Type R (570/465 = 123%) uses a stiffer front.
 
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tbromley said:
Eibachs in the first chart show 112% and stock OEM 91 show 77% - so you tell me how that equates to about the same. What is it I'm missing - I must not know how to read the chart.
Click to expand...

You're misreading the chart, bud. ;) Those percentages are describing the front/rear bias of the springs, not their stiffness. Thus, "77%" means that the front springs are only 77% of the stiffness of the rear, or put another way the car has bias toward the rear of 23%. 100% would mean that the springs are exactly even- 50/50. Like Jim said, the Type-R is 123%, meaning a front bias of 23% over the rear.

As for the Eibachs, I've ridden in a 94 NSX with those springs (DocL's car) and they are virtually indistinguishable from OEM. For your non-track purposes (i.e., cruising around town), you should be looking at the starting rates of the springs, not the end rates. For the Eibach, the starting rates are actually softer than OEM, meaning the car will ride smoother than even stock springs. The only thing I can think of that would cause such terrible bumps as you describe is the lowering effect. By lowering the suspension, you reduce the amount of travel, meaning it is easier to bottom out. Maybe that is what was happening?

One thing about the NA2 Type-R springs- while they are always described as linear, a even a casual glance at the winding will tell you they're actually progressive. In all my searching on Prime, I've never found an explanation for this? :confused:
 
Honcho said:
You're misreading the chart, bud. ;) Those percentages are describing the front/rear bias of the springs, not their stiffness. Thus, "77%" means that the front springs are only 77% of the stiffness of the rear, or put another way the car has bias toward the rear of 23%. 100% would mean that the springs are exactly even- 50/50. Like Jim said, the Type-R is 123%, meaning a front bias of 23% over the rear.

As for the Eibachs, I've ridden in a 94 NSX with those springs (DocL's car) and they are virtually indistinguishable from OEM. For your non-track purposes (i.e., cruising around town), you should be looking at the starting rates of the springs, not the end rates. For the Eibach, the starting rates are actually softer than OEM, meaning the car will ride smoother than even stock springs. The only thing I can think of that would cause such terrible bumps as you describe is the lowering effect. By lowering the suspension, you reduce the amount of travel, meaning it is easier to bottom out. Maybe that is what was happening?

One thing about the NA2 Type-R springs- while they are always described as linear, a even a casual glance at the winding will tell you they're actually progressive. In all my searching on Prime, I've never found an explanation for this? :confused:
Click to expand...

BTW: If your OEM rubber bumpstops have disintegrated over time, then the softer spring of the Eibach will cause you to bottom out easier than an OEM spring, giving an EXTREMELY bad ride.
 
Paul, Cap'n, thanks for the crash course on springs. I will tell you though that my new springs and shocks work great. I love the ride. It is interesting to me that as you noticed from the charts they are more stiff than the 91 - weird.

Anyway, I didn't get any progressive action out of the Eibachs I had. I need to contact the guy I sold em to and find out if he likes em. I don't know what to say but - my ass doesn't lie and I did put the OEM springs back on my old shocks and there was a huge difference in the ride. So why I don't know. Funny huh.

Anyway, it sounds like the Swifts are the ones. Our buddy RJRKRP is going to put swifts on his car cause his wheels raised his car up - I don't know how that happens but I saw the pics and it looks funny kind of like mine does. I think I'll let him do that and see what he thinks.

Paul - you're not changing your springs are you - don't you have the comptect springs? How are they?

Thanks ya'll.
 
Yep, I have Comptech Sport lowering springs. They are the softest of the progressive lowering springs available for the NSX. The starting bias is 100% (F150/R150) and the end bias is 80% (F200/R250). The end rates are only slightly stiffer than OEM. I really like them, especially since the drop is PERFECT (measured 0.9" on my rear lower bolt).

I also have 19.05mm RM sways (front and rear) and Koni Sport adjustable shocks. This makes for an excellent sporting suspension setup and I generally love it. My car rides well over most surfaces, though encounters with our decrepit Long Island potholes and patch jobs result in a teeth-rattling jolt. This likely is not a result of my springs, but my Koni shocks. The compression rate (damper compressing under bump) of the Koni is about 100% stiffer than a OEM NSX damper, so you do feel the stiff bumps more than normal. The rebound (damper extending back) is adjustable. I run it on the street with 1/2 turn from soft rear and 1 turn from soft front. I have yet to crank them up all the way. I also have an annoying coil slap rattle from my springs, which do not have the little black insulators that come on the OEMs- make sure you use these! :) I have no idea where to get them, since Acura does not sell them separately...

The whole setup has about 20,000 miles on it, so it likely has a lot of life left in it. Normally, I would keep it for a long time, since with the Konis turned all the way up, it probably would be fine for the occasional HPDE. The only reason I am considering a change/upgrade is that I do intend to track my car and right now it is set up more for oversteer, which makes me nervous about the dreaded snap-oversteer condition. Having rear-biased springs with equal size sway bars makes the car want to rotate quicker. I have tried to dial that out with the Konis and using 275 series rear tires instead of 255, and it has made the car almost neutral, but I won't know for sure until I've tested the limit. I'm trying to find out when some local AutoX events are being held so I can basically put the car sideways to figure out if I need to change the setup before hitting the track. If I can control the car, I will probably keep it as is. If not, I will get custom linear Swift springs spec'd to front-biased rates (probably F350/R275) and have my Konis re-valved to match with a new perch cut to give me my 1" drop.
 
Paul,

Are you talking about the "rubber doughnuts" that fit in that top sheild piece that holds the spring in place. I just bought 2 of them from Clint for 30 bucks a piece so you can still buy those if that's what you need. I can get you his phone number if you'd like. He's an Acura dealer and gives us 25% off. Good man.

Sounds like you are more serious about all this than I am. I need to get to the track this year. There are some events at Road Atlanta for all this. I plan to do at least one this year! I tell you if I had a bunch of money I would go to the V3s in a heart beat. If it's good enough for the Mercedes Black AMG - it would be a great ride. I may do it in a few years depending - right now I'll be fine with Swifts I think.

Thanks Paul and Cap'n and everyone for chiming in. I am enjoying finding out about a lot of this. Say Paul did you get my Pm about the short gears? What will Larry B do em for?
 
Honcho said:
For the Eibach, the starting rates are actually softer than OEM, meaning the car will ride smoother than even stock springs. The only thing I can think of that would cause such terrible bumps as you describe is the lowering effect. By lowering the suspension, you reduce the amount of travel, meaning it is easier to bottom out. Maybe that is what was happening?
Click to expand...
+1



CL65 Captain said:
BTW: If your OEM rubber bumpstops have disintegrated over time, then the softer spring of the Eibach will cause you to bottom out easier than an OEM spring, giving an EXTREMELY bad ride.
Click to expand...
+1

Post # 10:
FXMDBilly said:
Lowering a stock suspension too far by springs alone reduces the compression travel and for some cars (not sure about the NSX) can cause them to bottom out over big bumps due to the lack of travel, lower ride height, and mild increase in spring rate. My M3 with H&R lowering springs is an excellent example of this, the car bottoms out over big bumps and shocks the whole car. If you have smooth roads, this isn't as much of a concern and it might still be fine for the NSX
Click to expand...

I don't have a stock set of NSX shocks in front of me, but lowering the NSX 1.5 inches or so is a pretty substantial amount and reduction in compression travel. Lets say you hit a bump with your stock springs and blown shocks. Your suspension compresses 5" (and it takes 6" to bottom out). Now that your car is 1.5" lower, you only have 4.5" of compression travel before you bottom out. Now you hit that same bump with a reduction in travel and BAM - you bottom out and it is very aggressive. This would be made worse from blown dampers that don't slow the compression jolt as quickly as a functioning damper.

How did the eibachs ride on relatively smooth roads? Was it that much worse or just over bigger bumps?

If you lower your car alot via springs, you need higher spring rates to keep them off the bumps stops. Coilovers generally have shorter shock bodies and more compression travel built in -designed for lower operating ride heights. But as I said before, many coilovers have a lack of droop travel which also compromises the ride. KW's, JRZ/Moton, and Penskes that ive seen on NSXs have proper compression and droop travel and could have a BETTER ride quality over big bumps than a softer sprung 'lowering spring' on a stock shock that bottoms out over big bumps. This may sound counter-intuitive but yes you can have a better ride quality with proper shock travel (compression and rebound) even with higher spring rates.


Billy
 
I tried the search, but since we are on the topic of coilovers, what would be a good starting point to adjust the dampening? The previous owner set all coilovers at full soft. The car came with JIC FLT-A2's, and with the car being mid-engined I'm not sure where to begin the dampening. Or is this totally a trial and error method for the driver's comfort?
 
There's a nice set of used RA's @ the marketplace:

http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132951

Have RA's myself and I don't have any complaints, I am 1.25 lowered :) ... on the NSX case, I like more hard suspension, the stock was way to soft for me ...

Oscar
 
Nope, I'm talking about the black plastic/rubber sleeves that wrap around the spring coils. They prevent the coils from contacting each other metal-to-metal and making noise whenever you hit a bump. :mad:

I would get the KW's as well, given unlimited funds, but I'll stick with my current setup for the time being. I haven't talked to Larry about the gears yet, since my NSX fund doesn't even have enough for the parts right now. :D I'm actually thinking of doing them myself, since I have worked on Honda MT's before. That I'm sure I will need to talk to Larry about eventually. :D

GoldNSX inspired me here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98703&highlight=FINAL+GEAR I coludin't see the pics though... :(

tbromley said:
Paul,

Are you talking about the "rubber doughnuts" that fit in that top sheild piece that holds the spring in place. I just bought 2 of them from Clint for 30 bucks a piece so you can still buy those if that's what you need. I can get you his phone number if you'd like. He's an Acura dealer and gives us 25% off. Good man.

Sounds like you are more serious about all this than I am. I need to get to the track this year. There are some events at Road Atlanta for all this. I plan to do at least one this year! I tell you if I had a bunch of money I would go to the V3s in a heart beat. If it's good enough for the Mercedes Black AMG - it would be a great ride. I may do it in a few years depending - right now I'll be fine with Swifts I think.

Thanks Paul and Cap'n and everyone for chiming in. I am enjoying finding out about a lot of this. Say Paul did you get my Pm about the short gears? What will Larry B do em for?
Click to expand...
 
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Honcho said:
Nope, I'm talking about the black plastic/rubber sleeves that wrap around the spring coils. They prevent the coils from contacting each other metal-to-metal and making noise whenever you hit a bump. :mad:

I would get the KW's as well, given unlimited funds, but I'll stick with my current setup for the time being. I haven't talked to Larry about the gears yet, since my NSX fund doesn't even have enough for the parts right now. :D I'm actually thinking of doing them myself, since I have worked on Honda MT's before. That I'm sure I will need to talk to Larry about eventually. :D

GoldNSX inspired me here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98703&highlight=FINAL+GEAR I coludin't see the pics though... :(
Click to expand...

Can't see the pics either. Too bad. That's a big deal of a job I'd think and lots of bucks on parts alone! Let me know if you get the pics to work. Thanks Paul.
 
Haha, I should have figured that Tbrom would have a conversation about this goin on already.

I hope you have added these spring rates to the spreadsheet I sent ya. You could have politely pointed me in this direction by the way, it wouldn't have hurt my feelings.

Oh, reason for the increased rates on later cars Tbrom, they were heavier. Just thought I'd point this out as you brought it up several times and I just didn't see anybody point it out to ya.

Did you add the front to rear percentage yet, if you need some help adding that in there let me know. A couple minutes and you will have that too. Glad some of what I was discussing in that email is the same information others have given you as well. So, where on the mod list is suspension for you now? I'm leaning KW's 1st then diff and gears; my 91 has low miles but time is time on shock oil and tires.
 
Soory to bump this thread but I'd also like to know any updates about the swift Mach springs. I see that evasivemotorsport carries them swift springs with decent price.

Any update tbromley?
 

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