technical issue don't know where to start.

[kboose07]

this is the story i was at mid ohio for an open track day getting some and the coolant hose to the engine blew and i spun out so after the spin i shut the car down and had them tow me in i put the car on the trailer and trailered it home let it sit for a day then started it up no prob and pulled it out to wash all the coolant off. put the car back in the garage put it on jacks and started working on the replacing all the hoses. after filling the car back up with coolant i ran the car and was using the throttle body to rev it up to get it up to temp and once it got up to temp the engine cut out and now it won't start. i have spark, i put a tester on it and there is spark and i smell fuel and i have fuel pressure but it won't fire up idk where to start i was thinking main fuse? or fuel injector relay?

 

[Old Guy]

trailered it home let it sit for a day then started it up no prob and pulled it out to wash all the coolant off.

Started the car up with low / no coolant after the incident? If so, not something I would do.

Following a loss of cooling accident on an all aluminum engine, one of the first things I would be doing at minimum is a cooling system pressure test and a cylinder compression test. A leak down test would be highly desirable. If all the mechanical bits check out OK, then I would start looking for some electrical problems as a result of the coolant leak. Antifreeze evaporates slowly. With the washing it may have worked its way into some electrical connections, mix with a little dust and you have a problem. Let the engine compartment dry out for a while. You may need to utilize some contact cleaner / dryer on the connectors.

 

[kboose07]

only reason i didn't run a compression test is because i never overheated the engine and when i started it up at home and ran it, it ran like a champ. i will play with it some more tomorrow and take some compressed air and blow around in the engine bay on some connectors.

 

[Old Guy]

How do you know that you didn't overheat? If you have a major loss of coolant the temperature sender may no longer be immersed and does not provide an accurate temperature indication. If you lose coolant in the heads, localized overheating can be super quick. I am of the understanding that if you have the 3.2 engine, you have a higher risk of gasket damage because of the smaller sealing area. However, I have no direct experience with that.

If the coolant loss dropped the coolant below the head level, your at home restart and rev to get it up to temperature may have damaged the head gaskets. The engine does not need coolant to start and can run like a champ, albeit briefly.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Two things:

#1 Coolant system pressure test
#2 Comp test

Let us know the results, that will tell the story.....

HTH,
LarryB

 

[kboose07]

when I ran it to get it up to temp the system was full of coolant and ran at idle for about 5 mins running smooth no problems then I started reving it a lil bit to bring up the temp once it got up to normal operating temp it shut down like the fuel cut out or something ill do a comp test and pressure test tonight just to confirm there is no problems there but im leaning to a fuel issue because after trying to restart for a bit I pulled a plug and it was bone dry. I have good fuel pressure and spark so im thinking I might have blown a fuse or the computer isn't allowing the injectors to work for whatever reason. if I had head issues or gasket issues It would at least try to start or backfire or run like crap or something also it wouldn't have ran really good for the 15 mins I ran it after refilling the hole system once I redid all the hoses but im getting nothing now after it died. Also I have the c30 and I know I didn't overheat because as soon as I blew the hose I shut it down. I blew the hose because there 23 years old and I should have replaced them before hand.

 

[kboose07]

well just did the compression check and i have 210psi on the rear cylinders but 0psi on the front?????? i don't understand how i could have cooked the front when it was sitting there full of coolant running?

 

[Old Guy]

Indeed unfortunate. Was it the top hose to the engine that failed? Anecdotal evidence suggests that seems to be a fairly common hose failure point.

Having absolutely 0 psi on all three cylinders would seem a bit odd. Perhaps a pressure test of the coolant system with some fluorescing dye to confirm that it is the head gasket. No point yanking the head if it is some other problem.

If it is head gasket damage, the damage may have occurred at the time of the initial hose failure. It would be a function of how long it was from the time of the hose failure to the time you shut down the engine and the conditions when the failure occurred. If the hose failed at the end of a long straight section where you would have been at full throttle, there would be a lot of heat in the combustion chamber zone. If there was a sudden loss of a large amount of coolant leaving the front head close to dry, that residual heat is going to cook things fast. Even if you had shut down the engine instantly, the residual heat may have resulted in warping. Aluminum may be a wonderful engineering material for performance engines; however, its low specific heat makes it unforgiving when you have a coolant leak.

When you restarted the car at home, bringing the engine up to temperature may have just completed the failure process. If there is an up side, at least it died on your driveway and not half way through a left hand turn in rush hour traffic.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Do you have access to a leakdown tester?

If you do, set that up for the fronts, pick a cylinder and pressurize it. Listen to hear where the leak is, could be intake valve, exhaust valve(more likely), or you may hear it from the oil dipstick tube, which would indicate a bad seal for the cylinder rings.

Since the back is all good, this sounds to me like maybe, for whatever reason, you jumped a few teeth on the timing belt, and bend some exhaust valves.


I would like to hope I am completely wrong, but when one whole bank is out, it is typically cam related, since that is the part in common with the 3 cylinders in the bank.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[kboose07]

good information makes me think, anyway i put 18psi on the coolant system it looks like its holding but I'm going to leave it overnight and check it tomorrow morning see what we got.you would think with one bank good it would at least try to fire up yea no???thoughts?

 

[kboose07]

I check the gage this morning it was at 5psi

 

[Old Guy]

A bit strange. If your compression test yielded 0 psi and that was caused by a failed head gasket, I would have expected that the coolant loss of pressure would be pretty quick and that you would have 0 psi. Perhaps Larry is correct. You could check the timing by inspecting the timing marks. However, if Larry is correct about the bent valves, I think the head is likely coming off, one way or the other.

 

[Dr. JL]

I agree with Larry and Old Guy about the common theme...out of time/bent valves. I don't think a failed head gasket would result in ZERO psi compression. Low, but not zero.

W/R to the coolant system pressure...you said you replaced all the coolant hoses. There are a sh!+ ton of them! Did you use the complete kit available from SOS?

What about leak-down test results? The location of the "hiss" will tell you what's happened.

John

 

[kboose07]

i will do a leak down as soon as i can yea 0 across the board isnt making sense to me besides valve train the hoses for the coolant i bout aftermarked ones from a company called gplus here in ohio and the heater hoses i bought from the acura dealer. ill check the timing and see whats up.

 

[kboose07]

hey guys found out the cam on the front bank for the intake was off so my tb must have jumped i reset the timing and did another comp test and everything checks out i even found the coolant leak it was a hose to the overflow the wormclamp was loose. i have 210 pretty much on all cylinders now. i was thinking of doing a new timing belt and tensioner and water pump and throwing it back together? thoughts

 

[Old Guy]

Before replacing anything, if you have confirmed the cam timing is correct and the belt looks undamaged, try a start on the engine. If it starts up, go by a lottery ticket as you have to be one lucky individual to dodge engine damage from both a coolant loss and a slipped belt!

A new timing belt would be in order. The pump is your choice; but, a good idea if it is 23 years old. In addition, if your no start problem was due to the slipped belt and that slip occurred while you were warming the car up on your driveway, I would be looking for the reason why the belt slipped under those circumstances. Perhaps tensioner damage or some other issues?

 

[kboose07]

i was thinking the tensioner, when i was turning the engine over with a ratchet the belt was loosening more than my liking. the belt was replaced with a water pump 5 years ago according to the reciepes i received with the car so I'm undecided on a new water pump? i know what u mean by lucky I'm in disbelief that its still okay. I am really hesitant to throw it all back together to try and start it because i don't want it to slip again worse and then i actually do bend valves?

 

[Old Guy]

i was thinking the tensioner, when i was turning the engine over with a ratchet the belt was loosening more than my liking. the belt was replaced with a water pump 5 years ago according to the reciepes i received with the car so I'm undecided on a new water pump? i know what u mean by lucky I'm in disbelief that its still okay. I am really hesitant to throw it all back together to try and start it because i don't want it to slip again worse and then i actually do bend valves?

If the belt, tensioner or cam and crank wheels look in any way compromised or you are uncertain about their condition, then you are correct and should be replacing them before attempting a restart. My previous comment about attempting a restart included a caveat that there was no apparent damage.

 

[kboose07]

thanks for the help guys ill update after i pull it more apart and change the timing belt and tensioner.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

1. remember when checking the timing belt tension, you MUST remove the spark plugs.
2. Do not bother playing the lottery, you used all your luck for a while.......

Glad the engine is OK.

Regards,
LarryB

 

[xsn]

Glad it's turning out to not be as serious as it was starting to sound earlier in the thread!

I do have a question if someone smarter than me wouldn't mind answering. How does a coolant leak have lead the timing on the front bank getting off? Coolant on the timing belt causing it to slip a tooth or two?

 

[kboose07]

well i pulled the cams while i was doing the timing belt to do the sos lma's and found on of the journals the intake cam rides on was chewed up a lil bit and caused it to bind. question is now what do i do?

 

[Old Guy]

A really good machine shop might be able to fill the journal and line bore it, or line bore it and do some kind of split insert (pure speculation on the latter as I am not aware of anybody trying that on an engine head. Other than that, I think its a new head.

 

[kboose07]

i went to the machine shop yesterday and took the camshaft and the cap and they said it wasn't bad and I could work it out with some emery cloth so that is what I will try first they said they don't know anyone that could line bore that and that they have a tone of heads in there shop with the same issue but worse that are just scrap now. I will update you and send some pics as I go. I took the rockers out so I could test fit the cam back in and turn it as I work it. also if it works I was going to throw some lma's at it from sos.

 

[mrbozo1]

Replace the timing belt...install the SOS IMA's....put engine back together. You only need a few things to make engine run. Spark(at the right time)...fuel...and a little compression...you say you have all three. I suspect you are missing one of them. You have compression. You must check fuel pressure... and you must confirm spark. That mark in the cam journal wont hurt...much. Even if number one cylinder has 0 compression...which it doesnt...the engine will still run....trust me I have driven my nsx with two cylinders at 0, and hurt nothing,but engine did run. Keep us posted on your progress.