Targa or Convertible timetable for launch

[Mogami]

Also Honda just joined with Red Bull and AM. Aston Martin Redbull Honda F1

Will the Valkyrie have Honda on the Cosworth V12 valve-covers?
Honda(Cosworth) 3.5 V6TT in Valykrie JR(488 comp)?
Red Bull designs, Honda/Cosworth power-trains and AM selling them.

 

[dshinke21]

The problem here is weight! Removing the boat anchor of a hybrid component(s) would easily resolve the weight issue and 500HP would likely be adequate. Recall that the original NSX, S2000 delivered a magical driving experience without massive HP numbers. When I drive mine, the magic still persists. Now your telling me that Acura is going to jump into the HP race because they created a bloated "green" machine to satisfy an agenda and they need more power to drag along all that "green" hardware. If the R8 exists from the marketplace, I'm not sure it will result in a flood of buyers to the NSX. My guess is that they will migrate to the upcoming mid-engine Corvette. So this entire NSX fiasco demonstrates Acura apparent disconnect with the consumers in this marketplace.

People always forget the R8 coupe is nearly 3,700 pounds and the GTR is 3,836 pounds 30 more than the NSX. No hybrid wizardry going on in either of those cars.

They Hybrid system in the NSX is tiny. The battery, which is the heaviest part of any hybrid or electric car, is a Lithium Ion battery with a mere 72 cells that is if my memory serves me right is 1.8 kWh. The entire Intelligent Power System which includes the lithium ion battery, junction board, high voltage distribution bus bar, 12-volt DC-DC converter, Electric motor ECU, Lithium-ion battery ECU, and the twin motor unit ECU is 35 percent smaller and 30% lighter than the RLX Sport-Hybrid system that came before it while also having 15% improved energy density.

For reference as to how small that batter really is, The LaFerrari battery is 2.3 kWh, the P1 battery has 324 cells and is 4.4kWh and weighs over 200 pounds, and the 918 Spyder battery is 6.8kWh.

We aren't talking about a couple hundred pound battery here, this system was designed to be as small and light as possible. As a matter of fact I think the one complaint is that Acura tried to stay too conservative (typical honda) with they hybrid system. I wish the battery was a bit more powerful and the electric motors were a bit beefier. I've said it many times before but the best power gains they will find for this car are hidden in the electrical system.

The place I am upset about the weight is with the exhaust, car would be under 3,800 pounds if that exhaust wasn't such a monster and the car would sound much better. I keep asking for a sport's exhaust option...

 

[Mogami]

Expect a performance NSX in 2020.

Lose TMU(-250-300 pounds)
Lighter chassis/body(-100-150 pounds)
Lighter power-train/exhaust(-50 pounds)

The battery isn't the weight killer in the NSX Hybrid System(it is tiny compared to others).
The TMU,Wiring and Controls are the weight killers.

 

[docjohn]

People always forget the R8 coupe is nearly 3,700 pounds and the GTR is 3,836 pounds 30 more than the NSX. No hybrid wizardry going on in either of those cars.

They Hybrid system in the NSX is tiny. The battery, which is the heaviest part of any hybrid or electric car, is a Lithium Ion battery with a mere 72 cells that is if my memory serves me right is 1.8 kWh. The entire Intelligent Power System which includes the lithium ion battery, junction board, high voltage distribution bus bar, 12-volt DC-DC converter, Electric motor ECU, Lithium-ion battery ECU, and the twin motor unit ECU is 35 percent smaller and 30% lighter than the RLX Sport-Hybrid system that came before it while also having 15% improved energy density.

For reference as to how small that batter really is, The LaFerrari battery is 2.3 kWh, the P1 battery has 324 cells and is 4.4kWh and weighs over 200 pounds, and the 918 Spyder battery is 6.8kWh.

We aren't talking about a couple hundred pound battery here, this system was designed to be as small and light as possible. As a matter of fact I think the one complaint is that Acura tried to stay too conservative (typical honda) with they hybrid system. I wish the battery was a bit more powerful and the electric motors were a bit beefier. I've said it many times before but the best power gains they will find for this car are hidden in the electrical system.

The place I am upset about the weight is with the exhaust, car would be under 3,800 pounds if that exhaust wasn't such a monster and the car would sound much better. I keep asking for a sport's exhaust option...

I agree the E system is too weak imo...Either ditch it or strengthen......and you are right cars are getting heavier...

 

[dshinke21]

Typical Honda conservatism on that one but ultimately I agree. They need to fully commit to that and strengthen it or ditch it altogether. I will be downright shocked if they make a non electric NSX. I will be eating my words if they do but I do not believe any road going NSX will see the hybrid powertrain removed. Every manufacture is going electric and taking a step backwards from that is a huge mistake. Whether we like it or not hybrid or fully electric cars are the future. If they can build on this car I think they really have somethings special here.

 

[fastaussie]

and it would be too expensive to un-integrate all these systems at this point. it just isn't happening.

Honda didn't build a competitive enough Supercar, their formula was a big miss. 5 cars a month to Audi's 60 is enough proof for anyone wanting to dispute that...

 

[Mogami]

NSX engine was designed from day one to be always Hybrid in street form.

So a performance version would just lose the front TMU(a must to get it down closer to 3000 pounds, my guess is 3300-3400 range) but keep the rear Electric Motor/Generator/Starter/Flywheel.
Something like 600 hp from the ICE and 50-70hp from rear eMotor. RWD only

 

[fastaussie]

mate, your assertions are overly optimistic at best. and absolutely not happening...

 

[DocL]

mate, your assertions are overly optimistic at best. and absolutely not happening...

He still hasn't addressed my question directed at him. As far as I am concerned with this guy, he is just spitting out rhetoric he's reading on the web.

 

[fastaussie]

or his own personal wish list? but there is absolutely no indication of even the possibility (or likelihood) of any of that happening...

 

[Bricks and Bio]

I still don't see that iteration a competitive. No way I see them getting to 3000 lbs either.

I would assume it would be the NSX-R, that would cost like $30-$50K more than the current car and couldn't run with a current 488 let alone a Pista.

NSX engine was designed from day one to be always Hybrid in street form.

So a performance version would just lose the front TMU(a must to get it down closer to 3000 pounds, my guess is 3300-3400 range) but keep the rear Electric Motor/Generator/Starter/Flywheel.
Something like 600 hp from the ICE and 50-70hp from rear eMotor. RWD only

 

[Mogami]

He still hasn't addressed my question directed at him. As far as I am concerned with this guy, he is just spitting out rhetoric he's reading on the web.

There is a little diner where a few of retired Japanese Honda people hang out in near Torrance(and we talk).

 

[Mogami]

I still don't see that iteration a competitive. No way I see them getting to 3000 lbs either.

I would assume it would be the NSX-R, that would cost like $30-$50K more than the current car and couldn't run with a current 488 let alone a Pista.

It would be in the $220,000 range.

But any major upgrade to the NSX will be a very hard sale to the Board and Shareholders because of it's sales.
It's saving grace is the new CEO who knows the biggest mistakes Honda has done in the past was cancelling F1 involvement every time there is a market scare and letting the first gen. NSX and S2000 go stale on the lot for 10+ years.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

To me the S2000 and NSX stuff is a blip next to blowing their market opportunity in sedans. The RL/TL cars with a RWD platform could have been huge wins toward building a tier 1 luxury brand.

Instead they did the ZDX and one crappy RLX after another.

The ILX isn't even as nice as a Civic.

 

[dshinke21]

To me the S2000 and NSX stuff is a blip next to blowing their market opportunity in sedans. The RL/TL cars with a RWD platform could have been huge wins toward building a tier 1 luxury brand.

Instead they did the ZDX and one crappy RLX after another.

The ILX isn't even as nice as a Civic.

With the way the new RDX is selling I wouldn't be surprised if they push that tech into everything as fast as possible. I'm sold out of those cars and all my orders for them through the end of August.

ILX is due for an update this fall. I do not know if its a redesign or simply a refresh with the new grill and ODMD 2.0. If its simply a refresh it's a huge mistake. Can't refresh a car that rides on the OLD Civic platform that the Civic doesn't even use anymore.

MDX should be getting it's redesign for 2020 and TLX should be either the same year or the following. TLX redesign should be the debut of Type-S as well. I think there is a tiny possibility that the ILX relaunches type-S this year if it gets a full redesign. I do not think that will happen though.

If they did a ground up redesign of our sedan's and MDX the way they did the RDX they would absolutely kill the market and have all the money they want to throw at the NSX.

 

[Mogami]

With the way the new RDX is selling I wouldn't be surprised if they push that tech into everything as fast as possible. I'm sold out of those cars and all my orders for them through the end of August.

ILX is due for an update this fall. I do not know if its a redesign or simply a refresh with the new grill and ODMD 2.0. If its simply a refresh it's a huge mistake. Can't refresh a car that rides on the OLD Civic platform that the Civic doesn't even use anymore.

MDX should be getting it's redesign for 2020 and TLX should be either the same year or the following. TLX redesign should be the debut of Type-S as well. I think there is a tiny possibility that the ILX relaunches type-S this year if it gets a full redesign. I do not think that will happen though.

If they did a ground up redesign of our sedan's and MDX the way they did the RDX they would absolutely kill the market and have all the money they want to throw at the NSX.

New MDX in 2019(debut of Honda's most advance engine....3.0L DOHC V6, Full cont. VTEC(intake and exhaust),Turbocharged and most likely with Electric Supercharger(no lag).
TLX in 2019 or 2020 with new Acura Sedan Chassis(front double wishbone suspension). Base 2.0T with 10AT and 3.0T with 10AT(SH-AWD) version.
ILX is just getting a redo this year with the new one debuting after the TLX(using the new Acura Sedan Chassis).

 

[dshinke21]

New MDX in 2019(debut of Honda's most advance engine....3.0L DOHC V6, Full cont. VTEC(intake and exhaust),Turbocharged and most likely with Electric Supercharger(no lag).
TLX in 2019 or 2020 with new Acura Sedan Chassis(front double wishbone suspension). Base 2.0T with 10AT and 3.0T with 10AT(SH-AWD) version.
ILX is just getting a redo this year with the new one debuting after the TLX(using the new Acura Sedan Chassis).

EDIT: My apologies, my reading comprehension apparently isn't working.

 

[Gondo89]

Typical Honda conservatism on that one but ultimately I agree. They need to fully commit to that and strengthen it or ditch it altogether. I will be downright shocked if they make a non electric NSX. I will be eating my words if they do but I do not believe any road going NSX will see the hybrid powertrain removed. Every manufacture is going electric and taking a step backwards from that is a huge mistake. Whether we like it or not hybrid or fully electric cars are the future. If they can build on this car I think they really have somethings special here.

McLaren is selling 120 cars a month in the US with no hybrid tech. 720S is the car
to beat right now, it's numbers are untouchable at this point in time. Nissan is moving 60 GT-Rs a month while Audi is
doing ~50 R8s. Benz is selling 130+ AMG GTs a month, right now. None of these cars have hybrid tech.
So Honda made a gamble on being green but it didn't translate to either a performance advantage or sales.
Nissan is not emulating the Honda NSX 2.0 fiasco for R36. They are likely going back to their roots, lighter, smaller, faster.
Honda should make a product that sells--not one that is deemed by their corporate beuracrats to be eco friendly. While Honda is worried about "Earth Dreams" Benz is hiring more accountants to count all the AMG money coming in...

 

[Mogami]

Unfortunately this is where you lost all credibility.

2019 TLX has been on sale for a few months now, changes for that model year are

• A-Spec trim for 2.4L models
• 19" wheels for 3.5L Technology and Advance Models
• Black Copper Pearl color is discontinued
• Platinum White Pearl replaces Bellanova White Pearl

2019 MDX hits showrooms in September. Only addition we have confirmed are the A-spec trim level being added. Myself and powdbyrice have seen this car in NY and it looks very sharp but underneath is the same MDX as 2018. I would expect this to be redesigned fully in 2019 as a 2020 Model year.

2019 ILX is confirmed that it is receiving the new grill and as far as I know that is the only thing they have promised. These will be on sale before the end of this year. I would expect them to drop at the beginning of winter. Information should start coming on them very soon. I would expect to see ODMD 2.0 in that car as well as a trim level overhaul. I think it is a mistake as that car desperately needs a redesign however that is what is likely to happen. I have seen some leaked sketches and patent files for the car but nothing more as of yet.

What the blank are you talking about? Who was talking about this years piece of shit?
I was not talking Model Year, debut year.
ILX only major change is the new grill!
New FMC MDX is targeted to debut in 2019 but Honda has been running about 6 months behind on new designs.
TLX is also planned now to debut in late 2019(MY20) or early 2020(MY21). Do you understand now?
The next Gen. TLX gets the new Acura Precision Sedan Chassis just like the RDX is the first on the Acura Precision SUV Chassis.People been crying forever that Acura was a Honda+(fancy Accord or Civic).The new Acura sedans will have front Double-Wishbone Suspension while Honda sedans will have Struts.
TLX = 2.0t and 3.0t. Type-S too

 

[dshinke21]

McLaren is selling 120 cars a month in the US with no hybrid tech. 720S is the car
to beat right now, it's numbers are untouchable at this point in time. Nissan is moving 60 GT-Rs a month while Audi is
doing ~50 R8s. Benz is selling 130+ AMG GTs a month, right now. None of these cars have hybrid tech.
So Honda made a gamble on being green but it didn't translate to either a performance advantage or sales.
Nissan is not emulating the Honda NSX 2.0 fiasco for R36. They are likely going back to their roots, lighter, smaller, faster.
Honda should make a product that sells--not one that is deemed by their corporate beuracrats to be eco friendly. While Honda is worried about "Earth Dreams" Benz is hiring more accountants to count all the AMG money coming in...

Mclaren just had meetings with Rimac discussing sourcing hybrid components from them for their upcoming vehicles. Porsche just invented in purchasing a 10% stake in Rimac for hybrid and electric vehicle components and development. Porsche has been the one of the biggest innovators for all of VW group passing technology on to Lamborghini in the RWS from the 911 for the Aventador S and many other technologies. Volvo is pushing the Polestar one and will not produce any vehicles that are not a hybrid or fully electric by 2020.

Look at the trends from every major brand right now. They are all realizing that this is where they need to be investing their money not only for their flagship vehicles but for every single vehicle they produce. Manufactures are realizing they should have started investing in this 3 years ago and now they are playing catch up.

Hybridization and electrification of vehicles is not always so they can appear green. Electric motors offer unique performance benefits that simply can not be matched by ICE. Finding that perfect blend of the two technologies is what everyone will be striving after. I would not be surprised to see every model in the Acura lineup receive a sport hybrid performance variant.

To abandon what they have already invested into this technology would be foolish and set them back 10 steps behind every other manufacture. The best way to learn is to fall flat on your face and then get up and try again.

While the NSX may not be selling very well now, they are approaching 2000 global units produced in 2 years. That's not shabby by any means.

 

[nsx_2k]

NSX engine was designed from day one to be always Hybrid in street form.So a performance version would just lose the front TMU(a must to get it down closer to 3000 pounds, my guess is 3300-3400 range) but keep the rear Electric Motor/Generator/Starter/Flywheel.Something like 600 hp from the ICE and 50-70hp from rear eMotor. RWD only

I do believe technically this maybe the most feasible outcome for Acura to help resuscitate the NSX. Review of the diagram shows the rear electric motor integral to the vehicle's starter/generator functionality. So dumping it entirely would be an engineering mess. But removing the front electrical components and ancillary electrical components with a smaller/lighter should be relatively easy to do.Unfortunately, this won't happen. Why? Arrogance. The company has become altogether too arrogant and will not budge or waver from their path despite atrocious sales numbers.

 

[nsx_2k]

Hybridization and electrification of vehicles is not always so they can appear green. Electric motors offer unique performance benefits that simply can not be matched by ICE. Finding that perfect blend of the two technologies is what everyone will be striving after. I would not be surprised to see every model in the Acura lineup receive a sport hybrid performance variant.To abandon what they have already invested into this technology would be foolish and set them back 10 steps behind every other manufacture. The best way to learn is to fall flat on your face and then get up and try again. While the NSX may not be selling very well now, they are approaching 2000 global units produced in 2 years. That's not shabby by any means.

You seem like a nice fella, but I'm afraid you are missing some points here.

2000 sold in 2 years is bad. Acura sold nearly double that number in the first year of the Gen1 NSX. Dealers should have a 2 year waiting list to buy the new NSX....they don't. Here is a question...if Acura originally produced 2 variants of the NSX, one that was hybrid and one that was non-hybrid. Which one do you think would sell the most right now? I would bet you a steak dinner that the sales of the non-hybrid would eclipse the hybrid. Sure manufacturers may feel that the hybrid direction is the way to go. Good for them. But the buyers, especially in this segment, aren't interested. Also many (not all) of the people who like hybrids aren't exactly car people.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

I did a quick look at Honda's 2017 Annual Report

About $124.5 billion in sales and $7.5 billion in profit and not one mention of the NSX

They took a shot at it and it didn't really work out for them, they have bigger things to deal with

 

[Tom239]

I did a quick look at Honda's 2017 Annual Report

About $124.5 billion in sales and $7.5 billion in profit and not one mention of the NSX

Honda's airplane was the most delivered plane in its category in 2017 and all the annual report says about Honda's aircraft/engine business is that it lost 43.8 billion yen, 27.2 billion less than in the previous year.

 

[Gondo89]

You seem like a nice fella, but I'm afraid you are missing some points here.

2000 sold in 2 years is bad. Acura sold nearly double that number in the first year of the Gen1 NSX. Dealers should have a 2 year waiting list to buy the new NSX....they don't. Here is a question...if Acura originally produced 2 variants of the NSX, one that was hybrid and one that was non-hybrid. Which one do you think would sell the most right now? I would bet you a steak dinner that the sales of the non-hybrid would eclipse the hybrid. Sure manufacturers may feel that the hybrid direction is the way to go. Good for them. But the buyers, especially in this segment, aren't interested. Also many (not all) of the people who like hybrids aren't exactly car people.

Couldnt be said any better or more accurate.