Makes sense. That 3rd brakelight section on all the R wings is a bummer. Interested to see what you guys come up with.
Stock vs. NSX-R wing vs. GT Wing vs. Hybrid? - On track
- Thread starter stuntman
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I think you are confusing a splitter with a front diffuser/"underwing".
For front downforce, the simplest device is a vertical Air Dam (which prevents air from going under the car and creates a low pressure area (downforce) under the front of the car) -used in NASCAR for decades.
Next would be a splitter which 'splits' the air and creates a high pressure zone on top of it's "shelf" -which is the extended portion in front of the car that everyone knows as a splitter. Ideally, there is a big flat portion or 'flat-bottom' at the same height as the splitter to keep the airflow under the car moving quickly for low pressure = downforce.
Finally, the addition of an upward sloping sections aft of the front bumper within the splitter (the front diffuser/'underwing') slows down the air which has a sucking effect and speeds up the air from the leading edge of the splitter, to the start of the diffuser. This faster moving air by nature is of lower pressure which = downforce.
Here's a great article by aerodynamicist Simon McBeath:
http://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...tter-question-splitters-diffusers-airdams-pdf
However he only covered a NASCAR-spec splitter, one with a 'step' aft of the front bumper. Most splitters have a decently long section of a flat-bottom aft of the front bumper which greatly improves its efficiency.
Point being: while there are tons of flimsy, flexible splitters in the market, a pure flat design is no less a "real aerodynamic component". I am a fan of front diffusers that are designed properly and would love to see what you come up with
No offense taken. Would you be interested more in the flat bottom or diffusered splitter?
I plan on getting them my car to make the first one so they'd have the templates to produce them if anyone is interested. They do make S2K splitters, canards, diffusers, etc... I just met them recently and have been impressed with their price points and their work.
Honestly, I am a lot more interested in a flat bottom created similar to what is made for the s2000. Something that could connect a homemade splitter to a rear diffuser like a taitec diffuser.
If you have never seen it before then here is what the s2000 underbody panels look like;
http://www.gotuning.com/product_info.php?products_id=801
As to the third brake light, couldn't you mount one inside the rear canopy glass at the top center? I seem to recall Shawn in Tampa doing this to one of his cars. Then you wouldn't have to worry about the brake light impacting the shape or function of the wing.
The NSX already has one of the flattest bottom ends of any production car in the 90s or even 2000s. The only real improvement is the area from the fuel cell rearwards -at the expense of reducing engine bay cooling.
You won't really benefit from the flat underbody like you would from a splitter or wing. Flat under bodies help the efficiency of a diffuser and there are better underbody designs than flat.
I've posted these photos before. However, I thought this would be a good time to discuss my gurney flap again that Billy built for me. It took me about a year or two before I put this on my car for a track event because it just doesn't look like it would work. However, my first outing at California Speedway I picked up 7mph at the end of the main straight entering turn 1 (145mph vs 137mph). This increase in speed was due to being able to exit ONTO the front straight with a higher speed due to more traction. In addition to this increase in speed, the car was much more planted on all corners over 40mph. I have picked up 2+ seconds at every track I've had it at (these are all tracks that I plateaued at regarding lap times). I had to dial in more front bite to balance out the understeer that it created. I recently went to Streets of Willow without it (just used the Seibon Type R replica) and I noticed how much I miss it. If this thing is good for 2 seconds, I can't wait to get some form of legitimate rear wing.
- - - Updated - - -
Here is another shot. It is far more secure than it appears in the photo. There is a "U" shaped piece that is comes around the front of the stock wing and gets tie wrapped around the back. I also use a Formula 1 spec bath towel underneath so the paint doesn't get scratched. Ha.
Terminolgy question...Is the Gurney Flap Ryan shows just above this post in fact a Rear Spoiler? I.e. if a Gurney Flap gets large enough is it no longer a Gurney Flap but it actually becomes a Rear Spoiler?
Oh and where can we source those F1 bath towels...? I gotta get me some so I can run faster.
On a more serious note, when you get a proper airfoil on your car you are going to fly!
Oh and where can we source those F1 bath towels...? I gotta get me some so I can run faster.
On a more serious note, when you get a proper airfoil on your car you are going to fly!
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Can I make a suggestion that might be kind of out of left field but I think would actually sell a whole bunch of?
* Why not have someone remake the mold in the NSX-R style wing but with an optimized airfoil design and a very aggressive (perhaps removable?) trailing edge (i.e. gurney flap).
Ryan has shown that even a low rise spoiler makes a ~2sec difference... For the folks that want it higher riser/spacers (maybe 4-8" tall) can be sold to raise the effective height of the wing as DDozier suggested.
I would buy something like this personally mostly because it looks stock and is more functional.
BTW.. I took a look at my NRG R wing today. Although it has much better trailing edge than the Seibon the overall shape underneath could be better. Thanks for pointing that out Billy.
* Why not have someone remake the mold in the NSX-R style wing but with an optimized airfoil design and a very aggressive (perhaps removable?) trailing edge (i.e. gurney flap).
Ryan has shown that even a low rise spoiler makes a ~2sec difference... For the folks that want it higher riser/spacers (maybe 4-8" tall) can be sold to raise the effective height of the wing as DDozier suggested.
I would buy something like this personally mostly because it looks stock and is more functional.
BTW.. I took a look at my NRG R wing today. Although it has much better trailing edge than the Seibon the overall shape underneath could be better. Thanks for pointing that out Billy.
So what would the constraints be? That it is no taller than the NSX-R wing? I would say that it needs to blend into the existing lines as well as possible and could be a bit taller and a bit wider perhaps. Since I don't have a -R wing, I can only go from what I've heard but aren't they somewhat obstructive of the rear view, such that a taller wing would actually be better? At some point it looks terrible. I would say the -R wing doesn't look nearly as good as the stock wing, but if the point is to get more downforce, then creating additional separation from the decklid is likely important.
A removable Gurney flap seems like a reasonable idea.
9doors asked above when a Gurney flap becomes a rear spoiler. It is my understanding that, despite looking somewhat similar, they are quite different. A spoiler sits on a surface over which air passes. It turns the air up as it leaves that surface. Because of the curvature of the flow, you get a pressure gradient such that the pressure is lower against the surface. A Gurney flap sits on the high-pressure side of the trailing edge of an airfoil (air passing top and bottom). It moves the stagnation point towards that high-pressure side, which give some more curvature to the flow on the low-pressure side, creating a larger pressure gradient. So fundamentally, both help give you curvature in the flow. But the spoiler doesn't have to worry about separation because there is no flow on the underside. If you imagine an extremely large Gurney flap (like ryneen's above), it will cause curvature on the top, high-pressure surface, and therefore increase the force there. But I'm guessing that it will cause massive separation on the bottom flow, which means a big drag penalty. It's like running a wing at too-high an angle of attack. At some point, the bottom flow separates from the wing much earlier than the trailing edge, resulting in loss of efficiency. I will confirm my understanding of all this.
The goal is to have an efficient design, not to brute force some downforce.
A removable Gurney flap seems like a reasonable idea.
9doors asked above when a Gurney flap becomes a rear spoiler. It is my understanding that, despite looking somewhat similar, they are quite different. A spoiler sits on a surface over which air passes. It turns the air up as it leaves that surface. Because of the curvature of the flow, you get a pressure gradient such that the pressure is lower against the surface. A Gurney flap sits on the high-pressure side of the trailing edge of an airfoil (air passing top and bottom). It moves the stagnation point towards that high-pressure side, which give some more curvature to the flow on the low-pressure side, creating a larger pressure gradient. So fundamentally, both help give you curvature in the flow. But the spoiler doesn't have to worry about separation because there is no flow on the underside. If you imagine an extremely large Gurney flap (like ryneen's above), it will cause curvature on the top, high-pressure surface, and therefore increase the force there. But I'm guessing that it will cause massive separation on the bottom flow, which means a big drag penalty. It's like running a wing at too-high an angle of attack. At some point, the bottom flow separates from the wing much earlier than the trailing edge, resulting in loss of efficiency. I will confirm my understanding of all this.
The goal is to have an efficient design, not to brute force some downforce.
THis is absolutely true. At one point I didn't know a cop was following me for a long while because the R wing takes up about 30-40% (i'm guessing) of the overall rear view in that key center section of the window. If a car at a certain distance from your bumper they are difficult to identify but you still know a car is there. It's not terrible but it's annoying.
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If the wing were kept at the same height and moved back like 2 inches it would still be further away from the trunk lid as due to the downward slope of the lid and efficiency should be increased seeing as how some of the low pressure area is now moved off of the trunk lid. The wing could have similar aesthetics to the R wing this way and help bridge the gap of the R and GT wings.
Another addition to help stir the creative juices. This is the Comptech wing. It's rather aesthetically pleasing but probably produces little to no downforce.
lol......design by an internet committee will never get off the ground.......the "wing" on the kremer car is the way to go.The lateral supports would have a sliding design one inside the other to just lift up to desired height,or pushed down to R standard height.You could lock it into to various height levels with locking cotter pins or the internal spring button mechanism like on the expandable handle of that floor jack you have in your garage.
Something like that--with telescoping tubes or with sliding side plates--would be functional but my hesitation is that I don't imagine it looking so great. Once I'm at that point, why wouldn't I forget about trying to make it stock width and go for a larger wing? I liked ryu's idea of a fixed, molded design that would better suit the car, perhaps with a Gurney flap to adjust downforce if desired.
LOL, thats why I still have a Voltex selected as a backup. Yes, Billy needs to eventually decide on what he wants to create and then go for it. Some of us will want one, some of us won't, like every other mod ever created for the NSX.
I do like the simplicity of the cotter pins/spring button to serve the varying height needs.
OK I have thought about this for a day or so and have a few ideas. I need to pull my OEM wing and take some measurements to validate the ideas I have from just looking at the pictures and listening to what others want from a design goal.
I have a design that will:
1. allow for the new wing to mount without modifying the deck lid.
2. It will allow for both front and rear AOA adjustments to the wing.
3. It will allow for the height adjustment without the need for tools or additional hardware.
4. When in the low position it will be very close to the OEM NSX-R location and width, when in TRACK MODE the wing height will be almost double the normal height.
5. The wing end-planes will be removable so that when in the low position the wing ends will mimic the OEM NSX-R profile but when in TRACK MODE the ends of the wing could be removed and new end-plane units attached that allow the wing element to be the full width of the car for maximum down-force.
6. Once up the wing will be supported by 4 slide adjusters that will allow for a wide range of adjustment to both the front and rear mounts of the wing element, by adjusting the front and rear points you will have at least 4-6 adjusting points from neutral to MAX AOA.
7. The uprights will be CNC machined from aluminum with provisions made in the uprights for a Carbon Fiber cover to hide the mechanical bits and keep the weight down vs a solid CNC part.
If this is what you guys want these will become the design goals and I will invest some time into some drawings and maybe do some CAD work on the hardware. I can do all this in house but I can not make any of the Carbon pieces or the wing element. I could machine one out of AL or ABS for someone that needs a plug to make a mold but I do not have the knowledge to design the wing element shape.
Any other things to add before I move forward or should I wait for more input before I move ahead.
Dave
found this... the site is kind of suspect but this is along the right path. Not sure how wide the Type R wing is but this one could be shortened/lengthened if need be to make it work. It's even motorized (or motoriced as it says on the page...LOL)
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/racing1/motoricedundercover.html
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/racing1/motoricedundercover.html
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Boom! This looks like it (from my humble standpoint) with one question. #4. Does double the R height get us into the clean airflow? I know the Voltex height is 245mm. What is 2xR height?
I might have to bow out of this guys. I can't picture a scenario where this will look good.
Will certainly keep following and provide opinions if needed.
Dave - functionally I think you're going in the right direction. I'd like to see a conceptual rendering for additional feedback though.
Will certainly keep following and provide opinions if needed.
Dave - functionally I think you're going in the right direction. I'd like to see a conceptual rendering for additional feedback though.
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anyone seen the new Voltex Swan Neck GT Wings....
http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/10/evasive-frs/
They look pretty nice, but I don't see how these can be adapted to the NSX. Apparently it has more aerodynamic properties according to the buzz.
http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/10/evasive-frs/
They look pretty nice, but I don't see how these can be adapted to the NSX. Apparently it has more aerodynamic properties according to the buzz.
This is actually not a new wing. It's a Voltex Type 7 with a custom bracket built for the Evasive car. And to Rope's point, we're trying to bridge a gap here satisfying both Type-R and GT wings with one product.
As for Voltex for the NSX, we generally have Type 4 which Evasive sells and Type 5 which Evasive can get, and is the one I'll most likely purchase if this project never happens.
Had time to play on the computer today, here is what i came up with.
Dave
Dave
I know little to nothing about designing the air foil, but the top surface will need to be nearly flat unless it is extended past the existing trailing end of the wing. The body line of the car should be considered into the profile of the car if possible. Because of the interchangeable end cap design the wing between the two uprights can be almost any shape and work.
The end caps will use two long rods per cap to slide into the wing body and lock in place. There should be no issue with strength as these rods and inserts can be made of AL tubing. The width of the track wing can be made any width we would want and would be the same profile or different than the center section.
Dave
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