One company I'm talking to makes really nice s2000 splitters for $650 including the mounting hardware. I inquired about the addition of a front diffuser added to their design.
Stock vs. NSX-R wing vs. GT Wing vs. Hybrid? - On track
- Thread starter stuntman
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The problem is that every splitter I have seen is a joke when it comes to actual aero design.
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WOuld the NSXR wing coupled with the TK gourney flap prove to be sufficient?
How so?
The one i'm talking to uses a foam core and is much thicker and stronger than most of the 'tuner' stuff on the market and shouldn't need strut supports.
Edit: I just spoke with them and they showed me a nice 2pc corvette splitter and integrated diffuser that they made. From our chat, he's projecting around $1,000 for the front splitter with integrated diffusers. Is anyone interested in a front splitter/diffusor or just a splitter alone at ~$650?
Sufficient for what? Better than stock? -probably. Better than NSX-R wing alone? -maybe/maybe not. Better than a real wing? -probably much closer to an NSX-R wing.
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since this is the track forum, lap times talk; Billy can you post some vids of your driving with different aero.
keeping my finger cross to watch your amazing in car footage..
more seriously, people put lots of focus on aero, how many of you know to drive with all the aero aids? When R34 came out, Best motoring did a topic with one of their 2nd tier pro driver, who does not have any experience in formula driving. They found out he drives better with part of the underbody being taken off because of the way he drives at the braking zone.
case in point, Jeremy Clarkson had driven a formula car and he said at 200km the car will just take that sweeper but if you chicken and enter the corner slower, you will be ended up crashing it.
Billy's Fxmd car was very purposed built for the best lap time, I bet the car handle quite differently than your street car
keeping my finger cross to watch your amazing in car footage..
more seriously, people put lots of focus on aero, how many of you know to drive with all the aero aids? When R34 came out, Best motoring did a topic with one of their 2nd tier pro driver, who does not have any experience in formula driving. They found out he drives better with part of the underbody being taken off because of the way he drives at the braking zone.
case in point, Jeremy Clarkson had driven a formula car and he said at 200km the car will just take that sweeper but if you chicken and enter the corner slower, you will be ended up crashing it.
Billy's Fxmd car was very purposed built for the best lap time, I bet the car handle quite differently than your street car
Great topic. I've wanted to take the OEM (non NSX-R wing) a step further by turning it into a retractable "active" wing similar to the 911 TT or the LFA. I just can't think of a way to properly secure the wing base to the chassis since to fit the lifting mechanisms would likely require drilling thru the trunk lid and mounting somewhere on the monocoque/"frame" and water sealing it. There's also some added weight of the mechanism.
To NSXDreamer2's point. I'm looking to find ways to make my car easier to drive fast even if it means its not the fastest out there. Don't have the experience on massive aero packages but I do like the noticeable difference with the R wing.
Thinking something like this. I've built more complicated stuff before so this can be done.
To NSXDreamer2's point. I'm looking to find ways to make my car easier to drive fast even if it means its not the fastest out there. Don't have the experience on massive aero packages but I do like the noticeable difference with the R wing.
Thinking something like this. I've built more complicated stuff before so this can be done.
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I don't really have any video A-B comparisons of a stock vs. NSX-R wing or a NSX-R vs. GT type wing. However there are a lot of people who do notice the difference going from OEM to NSX-R. There is a bigger jump going from NSX-R to the wing i'm proposing or a GT style wing. The S2000 is a great example where people can drop 2-7 seconds with the addition of a rear wing for stability (the better drivers would be closer to the 2 second difference while less experienced drivers have the stability and comfort to close the gap to a much better driver).since this is the track forum, lap times talk; Billy can you post some vids of your driving with different aero.
keeping my finger cross to watch your amazing in car footage..
more seriously, people put lots of focus on aero, how many of you know to drive with all the aero aids? When R34 came out, Best motoring did a topic with one of their 2nd tier pro driver, who does not have any experience in formula driving. They found out he drives better with part of the underbody being taken off because of the way he drives at the braking zone.
case in point, Jeremy Clarkson had driven a formula car and he said at 200km the car will just take that sweeper but if you chicken and enter the corner slower, you will be ended up crashing it.
Billy's Fxmd car was very purposed built for the best lap time, I bet the car handle quite differently than your street car
I'm not sure the details of that BM video with the GTR, but adding rear downforce will most always make the car more stable and result in faster times for the driver when compared to stock. The NSX isn't as unstable as the S2000, but it too would gain a significant amount in lap times for the driver -which is again why i'm proposing this less visually extreme option that will deliver significant performance and have the adjustability to be very mild appearing.
That's a pretty significant undertaking and even the aeromotion wings are much more involved than I would like to do. I'd love to see someone make an adjustable wing, but with the electric and hydraulic servos, arms, pistons out there, i'm personally not that interested and am looking for a less intrusive, simple design like in the original post.
The ~$650 straight one or the ~$1,000 one with front diffusers?
(both would have a foam core, VERY rigid, could extend 1-4" from the front bumper (as ordered) depending on the owners requirements and NOT need any front struts.
(both would have a foam core, VERY rigid, could extend 1-4" from the front bumper (as ordered) depending on the owners requirements and NOT need any front struts.
Because the splitters I have seen are simply splitters, they are not proper underwings. There is a huge difference. I'm taking about a real aerodynamic component, but I understand that not many people care enough to pay for one; maybe nobody. In any event, I will continue development efforts to see where it leads us.
Regarding the comment above about nonlinearity from an aero-heavy car, that is highly unlikely in a road car. The effect is not one of speed but one of sensitivity to pitch or ride height. When a car is sensitive to those, it is possible to enter a corner with it outside the ideal range and suffer accordingly.
since this is the track forum, lap times talk; Billy can you post some vids of your driving with different aero.
keeping my finger cross to watch your amazing in car footage..
more seriously, people put lots of focus on aero, how many of you know to drive with all the aero aids? When R34 came out, Best motoring did a topic with one of their 2nd tier pro driver, who does not have any experience in formula driving. They found out he drives better with part of the underbody being taken off because of the way he drives at the braking zone.
case in point, Jeremy Clarkson had driven a formula car and he said at 200km the car will just take that sweeper but if you chicken and enter the corner slower, you will be ended up crashing it.
Billy's Fxmd car was very purposed built for the best lap time, I bet the car handle quite differently than your street car
You make it sound like people should save their money and stray away from aero parts. Adding aero to a car is like anything else. You should add aero and grow upon what you have on your car as your skills advance. You don't know if you aren't ready for something until you try it first though. There is nothing wrong with formula 1 type aerodynamics making their way on to street/weekend track cars. As far as your analogy, if you were to drive a formula 1 car as a daily driver then the brakes, tires, power, and steering would make you crash long before the aero ever got a chance to from traffic light to traffic light.
When I think of splitters, I think of WTAC cars and their aero designs. Aero designs by privateers have drastically changed over the years, and for the better I might add. Instead of just disregarding something, show examples of what you prefer to describe as your idea of proper front splitter design. The internet is loaded with plenty of good and bad aero designs for most cars.
Billy, I think the price sounds good. I would still have to see a design before I agree to purchase such a thing however. No offense. I am very optimistic. Is the company the same company that does the s2000 underbody?
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I think you are confusing a splitter with a front diffuser/"underwing".
For front downforce, the simplest device is a vertical Air Dam (which prevents air from going under the car and creates a low pressure area (downforce) under the front of the car) -used in NASCAR for decades.
Next would be a splitter which 'splits' the air and creates a high pressure zone on top of it's "shelf" -which is the extended portion in front of the car that everyone knows as a splitter. Ideally, there is a big flat portion or 'flat-bottom' at the same height as the splitter to keep the airflow under the car moving quickly for low pressure = downforce.
Finally, the addition of an upward sloping sections aft of the front bumper within the splitter (the front diffuser/'underwing') slows down the air which has a sucking effect and speeds up the air from the leading edge of the splitter, to the start of the diffuser. This faster moving air by nature is of lower pressure which = downforce.
Here's a great article by aerodynamicist Simon McBeath:
http://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...tter-question-splitters-diffusers-airdams-pdf
However he only covered a NASCAR-spec splitter, one with a 'step' aft of the front bumper. Most splitters have a decently long section of a flat-bottom aft of the front bumper which greatly improves its efficiency.
Point being: while there are tons of flimsy, flexible splitters in the market, a pure flat design is no less a "real aerodynamic component". I am a fan of front diffusers that are designed properly and would love to see what you come up with
No offense taken. Would you be interested more in the flat bottom or diffusered splitter?
I plan on getting them my car to make the first one so they'd have the templates to produce them if anyone is interested. They do make S2K splitters, canards, diffusers, etc... I just met them recently and have been impressed with their price points and their work.
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Not knowing much about this stuff, I have to ask questions.
Is the rear wing, either OEM or TypeR limited by the angle of attack of the wing or by being too low and in turbulent air.
If it is the angle of attack in the wing would a simple wedge on either side of the wing mount to change the angle be effective. If so it could be installed at the track in a matter of min. by opening the trunk, loosening the 6 mounting bolts holding the wing down and sliding in the wedges.
Dave
Is the rear wing, either OEM or TypeR limited by the angle of attack of the wing or by being too low and in turbulent air.
If it is the angle of attack in the wing would a simple wedge on either side of the wing mount to change the angle be effective. If so it could be installed at the track in a matter of min. by opening the trunk, loosening the 6 mounting bolts holding the wing down and sliding in the wedges.
Dave
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I think you are confusing a splitter with a front diffuser/"underwing". . . . Point being: while there are tons of flimsy, flexible splitters in the market, a pure flat design is no less a "real aerodynamic component". I am a fan of front diffusers that are designed properly and would love to see what you come up with
Front aero:
Fair enough, a splitter that extends forward from the bumper will bothe move the stagnation point upward and create a surface for the low-velocity, high-pressure air to push on and create downforce. Then we can talk about what happens under the car. If you are suggesting a flat-bottomed structure that extends back and then ends, that will create a controlled zone of relatively high velocity air. Because the stagnation point is higher than the splitter, the velocity through the tunnel will be higher than the car's velocity. That creates a low pressure and makes downforce. But when your flat tunnel ends, there is a lot of loss from the sudden expansion. The next step is to profile the tunnel, resulting in what I consider a front underwing. This helps the expansion of the flow, so that we don't waste its energy. My understanding is that it therefore pulls in additional flow, creating additional downforce. This more than balances the area in which the expansion zone has a lower velocity (because the flow is expanding).
What jones83 points out below is what I am talking about: a splitter leading into a tunnel and a controlled expansion zone. Arron's remark was that the design jone83 posted looks a bit crude but it is the basic idea. He is concerned that I won't like my car on the street once I put real aero on it because I will need stiffer springs to support the aero. In any event, front downforce is an attractive idea.
Rear aero:
Billy, regarding the rear wing, which is what started this whole discussion: what about a wing that moves back to overhang the rear trunk lid? The problem with the current location and one reason that wings work better when higher, is that the low pressure under the wing (downforce) also creates a low pressure on top of the trunk (lift). By moving the wing back, this effect is greatly reduced. To me, a moveable wing might as well move back, perhaps in combination with moving up.
We can also discuss whether we are looking for maximum downforce or need a way to dial back for the street. I think that would be useful. It could be just angle of attack or a movable piece like a Gurney flap. That TK Gurney flap that some others on here are using looks hideously ugly to me but will probably help make downforce.
I appreciate this discussion and hope that others find it useful.
My car is a track/everyday car. I would like a splitter, like my big wing , that I put on and off for the track. I damage the high front that comes with the car.
Lance
Lance
I actually had created about 80% of a working 3d model for a retractable wing "LFA" style for the NSX. I stopped modeling it after I realized it just seems like it would cost a lot to make this for a limited number of people interested in it. Pretty neat and would work well. It would not to take up too much space in the trunk either.
For the retractable wing, did you have the mechanism pass through an existing bolt hole or entirely outside the trunk? Or did you plan on cutting a hole in the trunk?
That's what I didn't finalize. I had an idea of how I wanted it. The less intrusive design to trunk space would require cutting/modification of the trunk, wing, and the frame to have the retractable supports as far out as possible. I never really started modeling out the rear trunk area of the NSX to fully implement it. I was working on more of the retracting mechanism/wing assembly.
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My DIY splitter. Sticks out 2", no supports needed. Made of Alumilite. This is the max you can build out the "diffuser ramps", any higher and you have to guy the A/C and the front of the fender liner.
I don't think the front diffusers make a difference, easier to just make it flat.
<img src="http://media.caranddriver.com/images/12q3/474669/2014-mclaren-p1-photo-476968-s-1280x782.jpg"/>
<img src="http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/paris-2012-mclaren-p1-hypercar-concept-live-photos_8.jpg" />
I don't think the front diffusers make a difference, easier to just make it flat.
<img src="http://media.caranddriver.com/images/12q3/474669/2014-mclaren-p1-photo-476968-s-1280x782.jpg"/>
<img src="http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/paris-2012-mclaren-p1-hypercar-concept-live-photos_8.jpg" />
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The issue is the NSX-R wing is not a true airfoil. It's downforce is minimal and drag is significant (relative to its downforce). BUT its downforce is subjectively a noticeable benefit for lower experience drivers up to pros and delivers a time benefit over OEM on track.
Mounting the wing higher will make it more efficient but the biggest thing is to replace the NSX-R wing with a true airfoil "wing" element.
I'm struggling to follow you...
While I agree that having the low pressure area of a wing above a decklid does have a bit of cancellation going on due to lifting the top of the trunklid, and I agree that moving the wing rear of the decklid would reduce this issue, these concerns are beyond the scope of my original post and idea of a true airfoil (since the NSX-R wing is not) -that creates more downforce but having the same width as stock and having the adjustability to be the same height as stock-or NSX-R and have the ability to adjust much higher into free-stream air for efficiency and downforce for track use.
Basically something that bridges the gap between the NSX-R wing and a "GT" type wing while delivering close to GT downforce for close to NSX-R styling. When the wing is mounted further away from the trunk, the lifting effect on the trunk becomes less -which is why my proposed idea could be adjusted to be very high.
I'm all for seeing new ideas and developing them for the NSX, but the idea of having a wing sticking out the rear of the car, or an electronic adjustable gizmo is not what I had in mind.
I was looking to build a splitter like this but out of lighter carbon, and with front diffusers that are more optimized in shape and start much further forward -at the leading edge of the bumper. While they won't make as big of a difference as the splitter itself, a properly designed diffuser nets a gain.My DIY splitter. Sticks out 2", no supports needed. Made of Alumilite. This is the max you can build out the "diffuser ramps", any higher and you have to guy the A/C and the front of the fender liner.
I don't think the front diffusers make a difference, easier to just make it flat.
Here's a thread to discuss Splitters: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/178760-NSX-Splitter-Designs
Lets keep this thread focused on rear wings and everyone's thoughts on the proposed "Hybrid" design.
Other than Ryneen, Rope, and Greg-TT, does anyone else like/want the hybrid design?
Lets keep this thread focused on rear wings and everyone's thoughts on the proposed "Hybrid" design.
Other than Ryneen, Rope, and Greg-TT, does anyone else like/want the hybrid design?
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