Simple brake upgrade(?)

[DutchBlackNsx]

After reading: http://www.nsxhelp.com/brakeupg/index.html and also wanting to do something about my own brakes (thats why i read it), i wondered if anybody ever tried to put larger discs (read: fit in 17 inch wheels) on the front and rears, using the stock callipers with brackets.

Besides that the car would respond on braking (much ?) better (arm x force), would this also keep the temp right down? Thus less fading?

I know people 'thought' of doing it, but did anyone try it. I know there are rearsets avaible.

Larger discs would probably stick outside the heatshield, which would also give better cooling for the discs.

Or would the whole thing just be to expensive to do, and would a aftermarket brakeset (AP, Tarox, Brembo..) be the way to go.

On the tracks i see all these people with well-preped cars with Brembo and AP sets on, but also some with just stock brakeparts, winning races.

Anyone any experience ?

 

[Edo]

Brake upgrades are a HUGE subject and terribly ambiguous since there are a million ways to go about things.

The first thing you need to make clear is *why* you are doing a brake upgrade. Do you want a stiffer brake pedal? A grabbier brake feel? Are your brake's fading at the track? And if they are fading, do they become normal again after they cool off? or do they stay mushy?

In answer to your question though...Science of speed has a brake spacer kit for the rear and I'm sure you could manufacture one for the front. Since the Rotors have a larger diameter you'd have more leverage and consequently more braking power, along with the ability to absord more heat. Of course, keep in mind that braking is also limited by tire friction, so if your brakes lock your tires now, your car certainly won't stop any faster after the brake upgrade.

Now..onto my list of things to do.
If you haven't already, I would bleed your brake's with a High performance synthetic fluid, and change the pads for a more aggressive compound like Hawk HP+ or Porterfield R4-S, or an Axxis Ultimate.

This alone should make a huge difference in braking feel. Removing the dust shields and getting brake air deflectors or ducts should also help considerably in keeping the temperature down. Stainless Steel brake lines help, but don't make a huge impact in my opinion.

After doing all of this if:
1) Your pedal still feels mushy at the track but gets better after you cool off, go to a more aggressive pad (Higher operating temp like Hawk Blue or Carbotech XP) Keep in mind, overly race oriented pads are *NOT* streetable.

2) If your rotors warp and start to shake alot, go to 2-peice rotors or 2-peice floating Rotors in order to let your rotors expand and contract a little.

3)If your pedal gets mushy and never gets better you are boiling your fluid. In this case you need bigger Rotor's and calipers. Well..you could use them in any of the other cases, but unless this is happening you don't really *need* them.

While you can just space your calipers out, getting a front brake kit certainly doesn't hurt. The calipers are lighter than stock and the 4 piston setup of the Brembo/Tarox/AP Racing kits offer significantly higher levels of clamping force than the stock calipers not to mention the added mechanical advantage of larger rotors.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I'd be happy to help you out. Private me if you'd like.

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

Thankx Edo for replying with all the information.

I didn't reply any sooner, coz i was waiting for some more feedback about the calliperthing, but none so far (nobody??).
The reason i'm looking at some brake improvement is that i have problems on the track with my brakes. Mostly loosing all the braking power (fading), returning to normal after a cooldown, but it sort of keeps me from entering track events, coz if i'm gonna go out on the track, then i really want to go for it, and not have to be carefull with anything (sort of), so if my brakes might not stop me at the end of the straight, then i won't bother at all.
So i did put some other pads in (the Ferodo 2500's), which are sort of the best things you can get here, just the ones before the pads are getting really agresive (Ferodo 3000's), but these will eat youre wheels.
I found these a big improvement, it didn't increase the stoppingpower, but it did give a lot less fading, though a lot of brakedust.
I'm not looking for better brakefeel, or better stopping power, thats just fine, all i need is the discs not burning up, and the fading to go away. The tires are up to the task.

I did the fluid, and i really don't want to remove the stoneguard, coz they are there for an important reason. I also installed new wheels (Advans 7), which are a lot more open then the other wheels i had on.

The second reason i thought of moving the callipers out, is that the stock discs seem to get the small cracks in them pretty fast. I don't know if it's normal with discs, but i don't like it, and i haven't seen it on other cars a lot (non NSX). The discs i'm running are not even one year old, and they already show cracks all over.

Another thing is the look of the Stock NSX brakes. Especially in my 17 and 18 inch Advans they look like mickey mouse brakes.

So i thought by moving the callipers out i could get less heat, thus no cracking of the discs, better cooling and better looks.

Offcourse a nice AP set would do the job, but i think my drivingskills are not i that league.

I'll suppose i'll do i short post on NSXSC as well, maybe someone got some more info on it, and if it's any good.


Let me know youre thoughts.

 

[Edo]

Well, the only thing sort of moving to the bigger discs and calipers like the AP racing Kit is to remove the dust shields and install cooling ducts. (All of the BBK's necessitate remove the dust shields as far as I know. But this could be wrong)
OR if you are really handy with tools, you can create brake ducting and cut a hole in the dust shield the exact size of the hole and thereby retain the protectiveness of the shields yet gain more cooling. The key factor is to keep your brake's as cool as possible.

If the brake's go back to normal after getting cold, you need more aggressive pads just for the track (Aggressive pads do not eat rotors that badly when hot..only when cold and below operating temps, so change them after going to the track). If you get aggressive pads just for track use, you can probably get away with only changing the front pads at the track, and then changing back aat the end of the day. As much of a Pain in the butt as it is, it may be your only option...

The only other thing I can think of is, that you need to get better quality Rotors. I've found that Honda's Rotors get small hairline surface cracks in them. They don't seem to be really detrimental the the performance of the rotor unless they develop into larger cracks that go out to the edges.

I have *heard* that American made rotors are of higher casting quality and material quality than similar European rotors. The only experience I have with this, is when I switched to Wilwood Rotors, I got much more even Rotor wear and no cracking on the Rotor at all.(Previous rotors were Brembo)

Whether this was an isolated incident or influenced by some other factor I do not know. I did not get a chance to gather more info before having to sell my NSX.

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

Thankx Edo for the prompt reply again.

I thought of modifying the original stoneshield, and i think it's a good option, together with putting the deflectors on.

What i mean with the agresive pads, is that the dust from these pads is so hot, that it will destroy your alloy wheels. I know one geezer who needs to get the rear of his NSX resprayed because of it.

Thankx again,

Mich

 

[Ponyboy]

Edo has some good ideas. I had some similar brake issues and solved them pretty well.

My local track is pretty heavy on braking (110mph braking to around 25mph on some corners) and I'd experience some overheating. Especially during the summer. Here's what I've done to maximize my braking performance.

1)Take off dust shields
2)Install SS brake lines
3)Install track brake pads, Carbo Panther+'s
4)Mount Kumho Ecsta V700 tires, stock '91 sizes
5)Switch to high temp brake fluid, Motul 600
6)Install Dali air deflectors
7)Install slotted rotors front and rear
*after a few track days "spider cracks" began to appear
8)Re-installed OEM rotors, thought more mass would soak up more heat, spider cracks appeared after one track day
9)Bought 2 used RM chin spoilers with brake ducts, later taken off involutarily by any and all changes in elevation (read: speed bump on the way to the track)
10)Bought front Aerorotors from Dali, not mounted yet.

So far the braking capability of the car is beyond my driving ability. I let Johannes Van Overbeek drive my car at a recent HPDE day and he commented on how strong the brake were. Umm, he brakes better than I do! He said he was only applying the brakes in an "endurance" style rather than in a "qualifying" style. So there was performance in reserve there. The biggest improvments were the addition of the brake pads and, mostly, the tires. I'm expecting good things out of the Aerorotors - I'll let you know next season.

 

[nsxtasy]

Also, try the StopTech two-piece AeroRotors. See comments here.