Science of Speed Twin Turbo

[b00sted]

i´ll have to say this seems to be a very complete kit, i was wondering it this can be sold with journal bearing turbos to keep the costs a little lower?

 

[NSX-Files]

I love the setup. The only concern I see (and maybe it's addressed but not visible in the pictures) is that you're doing away with the oem main beam running left to right behind the fuel tank. This beam holds the front engine mount. Does the replacement bar you've designed also support the front of the engine?

 

[docjohn]

I love the setup. The only concern I see (and maybe it's addressed but not visible in the pictures) is that you're doing away with the oem main beam running left to right behind the fuel tank. This beam holds the front engine mount. Does the replacement bar you've designed also support the front of the engine?

yes look carefuly at Chris responses.look at post 7 here http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138895

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

i´ll have to say this seems to be a very complete kit, i was wondering it this can be sold with journal bearing turbos to keep the costs a little lower?

The Irony in your statement is hilarious... I'm not making fun of you... but trying to use two journal bearing turbos to save money on a 12k kit is the exact opposite of history.

Twin Turbo Designs started dwindeling into the past when Dual ball Bearing turbos were invented... Followed by Electronic technology to eliminate the use of FMU's and better control with one turbine and Programable EMS's.

The biggest benifit was faster spooling turbos and the ability to control them.... oh yeah... and A HUGE DROP IN PRICE.

Twin Turbo Supras made more power with a single turbo... Supra owners removed the factory twin to instal a single...

Technology today is still advancing with the single turbo design....

Regards

 

[NSXGeek!]

Twin Turbo Designs started dwindeling into the past when Dual ball Bearing turbos were invented... Followed by Electronic technology to eliminate the use of FMU's and better control with one turbine and Programable EMS's.

The biggest benifit was faster spooling turbos and the ability to control them.... oh yeah... and A HUGE DROP IN PRICE.

Twin Turbo Supras made more power with a single turbo... Supra owners removed the factory twin to instal a single...

Technology today is still advancing with the single turbo design....

Regards

Twin turbochargers old technology? Sorry, I don't follow the logic. Technology advances that benefit a single turbo (like ball bearing cartridges) will benefit a twin setup - because the same technology is in each of the two turbos.

Here's an example of the latest technology:

Twin turbocharged 24 valve V6, sound familiar?

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Turbocharger technology has definitely improved over the years. However, as mentioned, these advances benefit single or twin turbochargers equally as well - not single systems alone. The fact remains that placing the compressor as close to the exhaust port as possible is the most efficient use of the exhaust gas energy exiting the engine. A single design will compromise this ona V engine. A Supra uses an inline 6 cylinder engine. You can place one single turbocharger much closer to all exhaust ports than a V6 engine. Mounting the turbocharger near the exhaust ports improves performance (as well as emissions) and is enabled by a twin configuration. It is why we and OEM manufactures, like Nissan with the V6 GT-R mentioned, have selected the configuration we have.

thanks,
-- Chris

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

i´ll have to say this seems to be a very complete kit, i was wondering it this can be sold with journal bearing turbos to keep the costs a little lower?

Honestly, the price is negligible, less than a 3% difference.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I love the setup. The only concern I see (and maybe it's addressed but not visible in the pictures) is that you're doing away with the oem main beam running left to right behind the fuel tank. This beam holds the front engine mount. Does the replacement bar you've designed also support the front of the engine?

A new chromoly tubular brace is included with the kit. This allows us to install the front turbocharger, attach the front engine mount, attach the shifter cables, and improve cooling to the turbocharger.

 

[NetViper]

What is the typical install cost for a set-up like this? Is it the same price if you use your own exhaust vs using the sos high-flo exhaust?

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

Twin turbochargers old technology? Sorry, I don't follow the logic. Technology advances that benefit a single turbo (like ball bearing cartridges) will benefit a twin setup - because the same technology is in each of the two turbos.

Here's an example of the latest technology:

Twin turbocharged 24 valve V6, sound familiar?

NSXGeek...

I love answering your "I know everything" posts... OLD TECHNOLOGY with internal gates have been trumped bro.... cost vs performance... GTR's use mad electronics and use the twin for the V6 with it's 3800 lbs...

SAVE MONEY is the point... the technology is OLD to make hp cost effectivly....

GTR -

485 bhp at 6400 rpm - we shift at 8000

9.0 compression motor - 10.5:1 on our cars...

so drop 12 g's on a twin turbo... another 12 g's on a motor... or call angus...lol


Regards

 

[NSXGeek!]

NSXGeek...

I love answering your "I know everything" posts... OLD TECHNOLOGY with internal gates have been trumped bro.... cost vs performance... GTR's use mad electronics and use the twin for the V6 with it's 3800 lbs...

SAVE MONEY is the point... the technology is OLD to make hp cost effectivly....

GTR -

485 bhp at 6400 rpm - we shift at 8000

9.0 compression motor - 10.5:1 on our cars...

so drop 12 g's on a twin turbo... another 12 g's on a motor... or call angus...lol


Regards

I use the GT-R as it is a prime example of the latest automotive technology, and is the most relevant example to a twin turbocharged NSX. For your information, the turbochargers used on the GT-R are internally wastegated and use the same "mad technology" electronic solenoid method for boost control that the Science of Speed kit uses.

Internal wastegates require proper sizing to work properly, and knowledge of how to do this is important as they must fit into the turbine housing of the turbocharger. Internal wastegates function the same way as an external wastegate - external wastegates aren't "new technology". They are definitely easier to use, but there is no advantage if turbine control can be maintained with an internal gate.

I don't know everything, however some of the posts I have seen from vendors lately include erroneous details either for self promotion or plain ignorance. This forum is better than that. These statements should be vetted out by NSXPrime readers before they are accepted as internet fact. The NSX compression for example is 10.2:1 not 10.5:1.

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

I use the GT-R as it is a prime example of the latest automotive technology, and is the most relevant example to a twin turbocharged NSX. For your information, the turbochargers used on the GT-R are internally wastegated and use the same "mad technology" electronic solenoid method for boost control that the Science of Speed kit uses.

Internal wastegates require proper sizing to work properly, and knowledge of how to do this is important as they must fit into the turbine housing of the turbocharger. Internal wastegates function the same way as an external wastegate - external wastegates aren't "new technology". They are definitely easier to use, but there is no advantage if turbine control can be maintained with an internal gate.

I don't know everything, however some of the posts I have seen from vendors lately include erroneous details either for self promotion or plain ignorance. This forum is better than that. These statements should be vetted out by NSXPrime readers before they are accepted as internet fact. The NSX compression for example is 10.2:1 not 10.5:1.

There are 15-20 single turbo cars made at the factory for every 1 twin...

I'm stating price... you steer around it...

80 grand - GTR

12 grand - 400 hp NSX - non turbo stock cats that cost a ton to replace

25 grand - 500 hp - NSX with hiflow cats... but you spent 25 grand

im not even piping my turbo kit here... but 20 minutes long distance or call angus in canada from a cell phone for free...

6 grand - 450 hp

Regards

 

[angus]

There are 15-20 single turbo cars made at the factory for every 1 twin...

I'm stating price... you steer around it...

80 grand - GTR

12 grand - 400 hp NSX - non turbo stock cats that cost a ton to replace

25 grand - 500 hp - NSX with hiflow cats... but you spent 25 grand

im not even piping my turbo kit here... but 20 minutes long distance or call angus in canada from a cell phone for free...

6 grand - 450 hp

Regards

UMMM - THANKS - I think...

 

[NSXGeek!]

There are 15-20 single turbo cars made at the factory for every 1 twin...

The context of the discussion is twin turbochargers on a V engine, not engines in general. The point is that a V engine has separated exhaust ports on either sides of the engine - unlike an inline engine. For V engines, twin turbochargers are the most efficient use of exhaust energy.

I don't doubt that Angus has a nice kit probably designed with specific goals in mind including a target price.

 

[NetViper]

UMMM - THANKS - I think...

LOL:biggrin:

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

The context of the discussion is twin turbochargers on a V engine, not engines in general. The point is that a V engine has separated exhaust ports on either sides of the engine - unlike an inline engine. For V engines, twin turbochargers are the most efficient use of exhaust energy.

I don't doubt that Angus has a nice kit probably designed with specific goals in mind including a target price.

ok... well lets discuss ... you said...

twin turbochargers are the most efficient use of exhaust energy.


Efficiency would then be measured on a dyno...

so here is a twin turbo set up... on a 6k motor build

and here is a single T-3 turbo dyno.. on an identical (forged piston swap) motor build

I'm curious to where all of the efficiency is... All I see is higher numbers across the board...


Except for cost... which I dont think higher cost is very efficient.

 

[b00sted]

stmpo,

My question was simply based on the price tag for this kit after checking some dyno sheets with single turbos.

I do think the kit is quite expensive, for some users this price tag might be ok for the amount of "oemish" parts that can be used.


Besides the nsx i have a boosted itr and i tried a few turbos.

I´ve seen tests comparing the gt30 to a bw s256 (which is not a bb) and the spool time is pretty much the same.

As for the transient response gt turbos give, personally it didnt feel that different to me.

I can see most want to go with single turbos, in fact, it is cheaper but can you make a kit that will retain your favorite exhaust?

 

[JLCoolman]

ok... well lets discuss ... you said...

twin turbochargers are the most efficient use of exhaust energy.


Efficiency would then be measured on a dyno...

so here is a twin turbo set up... on a 6k motor build

and here is a single T-3 turbo dyno.. on an identical (forged piston swap) motor build

I'm curious to where all of the efficiency is... All I see is higher numbers across the board...


Except for cost... which I dont think higher cost is very efficient.

How much psi is being used for the second dyno?

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Looks very good although i'd like to know who the lag is

 

[BATMANs]

Just curious the BMW 335i are twin turbos and with an inline 6 right?

I'm conjecturing that they went this route for a more immediate boost reponse as opposed to a larger single turbo, right?

 

[NetViper]

Just curious the BMW 335i are twin turbos and with an inline 6 right?

I'm conjecturing that they went this route for a more immediate boost reponse as opposed to a larger single turbo, right?

They WERE twin turbo, but now they are using a single turbo.

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

they were twin turbo, but now they are using a single turbo.

priceless

 

[NSXGT-R]

priceless

335is and z4sDrive35is are staying with the twin-turbo set up. Both are 2011 models.

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

How much psi is being used for the second dyno?

I guess you can say it's unfair... the dyno chart I used has less boost than the twin turbo dyno.

Less boost and more power at every rpm range...

I love the OEM'ness coment.

Like the removal of the OEM Front Sub-frame, The removal of the OEM computer, the use of OEM - NON TURBO CATS (yes there is a difference),

The NON-OEM water pump for the WTA, and the best of all... The OEM High compression motor... maybe honda made a high compression motor designed for a turbo while all the other car makers made OEM low compression motors... because Honda is that good... there OEM NA Motors are OEM turbo motors

Regards

 

[NetViper]

335is and z4sDrive35is are staying with the twin-turbo set up. Both are 2011 models.

I thought the 335is was a a special edition though and would be going away soon.... after reading more, I guess it is not going away soon.

The 335i is now using a single.