The other impression I had about the nsx community was that, they were prime candidates of much of the pharmacutical commercials that I see between the car commercials.
S/C NSX That Much Faster Than Stock?
- Thread starter 02SilverNSX
- Start date
The other impression I had about the nsx community was that, they were prime candidates of much of the pharmacutical commercials that I see between the car commercials.
As a wise man once said:
:biggrin:
For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard, an't shall go hard.
lol......double entendre bonus points!! :wink:
You don't need to replace the intake to a $.7K high-flow unit as you mentioned. The OEM NSX intake is one of the most efficient intakes made. PD Cunningham uses OEM NSX intakes on his TSX race cars.
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And 4K labor? More like $1500.
I was gonna say... For four g's I will drive out, replace your tb, wp, accessory belts, hoses, install the CTSC kit, headers, and exhaust, make you coffee, give your dog a bath, and fix steaks on the grill. (You supply the oem parts, ctsc kit, aftermarket headers, exhaust, and all gaskets, the coffee beans, the dog shampoo, the dog, the steaks, and the grill and gas and/or charcoal.)
This thread has taken on a rather ugly tone here and there. Personally I am inclined to give 01blacks4 a lot of slack since he is a true pioneer. Same for Batman because I always enjoy his posts. The rest of you, if you want to rant about how great and/or evil the enthusiasts of the NSX and/or other marquis are, please do it in some other fourm and/or some other web site altogether.
In return I promise never again to use the "and/or" phrase in future posts.
Well that's a pretty fu_ _ _ _ _ good start.I do resent you're perception of who we are on this forum and find it to be quite different. I've driven most cars out there in one way or another and have gotten to know a lot of people in their respective automotive marques, but I've found no group more open, friendly and even extremely technically savvy. It's just some of us don't have to wear it on our shoulders as some form of badge for everyone to salute. If anything, I find most people who do have that knowledge are more than willing to share it will little or no agenda on their parts. This is a great community to be involved with if you love this car. Enough said.
Al T.
Haha, I stopped reading Prime for like 5 years because I was sick of the know it alls that really didn't know anything... This time around I have found there appears to be way more technical savvy users posting. This time around it is much more fun.
Heheh, I'm going to smoke a whole bunch of elitist fools (Japanese or Euro, don't matter) with my FF Honda for 2012. Nothing beats smoking mega dollar hardware with an econobox FF car.
Heheh, I'm going to smoke a whole bunch of elitist fools (Japanese or Euro, don't matter) with my FF Honda for 2012. Nothing beats smoking mega dollar hardware with an econobox FF car.
i'd wager the guy in the lambo, FGT or 911 turbo has a pretty big grin on his face as he steps into his garage to drive off in his car, regardless of whether or not some dude in a civic beat him on the track
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Haha, I stopped reading Prime for like 5 years because I was sick of the know it alls that really didn't know anything... This time around I have found there appears to be way more technical savvy users posting. This time around it is much more fun.
Holy 1+ year bumpage:tongue:
Cozmo,
I have been considering an Angus turbo for my currently stock 96 NSX.
I have been hesitating about any FI option other than CTSC for emissions and maintenance reasons.
How does you car do with WA state emissions with the Angus turbo?
You also mention that you get Lovefab to tune.....Is there a local reliable option in Seattle?
Thanks,
SC vs Turbo
In regards to the original question....
There is no "right" answer to this question. There have been many, many threads on this subject; unfortunately, you have to filter A LOT for a few valuable and informative tidbits.
I agree with all quoted above except his last statement. I recently faced this choice, and I chose a SOS SC.
The choice IS a compromise:
PERSONAL FACTORS---Hassle, time and money
My car had not been driven for almost 8 years! I was an early adopter of a BBSC. I recognized the significant limitations of the fuel management system and did not drive it until I corrected the issues with an AEM. Unfortunately many other life issues got in the way and my "project" dragged on for years. The final rub was someone broke into my garage, stole my tools, and unbolted the blower from my car. I choose to get rid of the BBSC and start-over...since BBSC, the options have dramatically improved but the question remains: turbo vs SC.
After 8 years I am over it. I want a car that have some Woo Hoo BUT will be as reliable and hassle free as the day it came off the lot. I am over the constant hassle that some aftermarket changes create.
The CT and SOS SC are the only option for this. Bolt on, tune and DONE
By all accounts, the vehicle drives like a daily and is rock solid reliable.
This is not the case with any turbo kit. My impression is turbo will require constant fiddling and has a much higher hassle factor. There is a shop in Orlando well known to FL NSX owners, First Coast Automotive. The owner, Nabil, reported that he is constantly dealing with turbos problems, rarely if ever a SC.
If you have the time, interest and the hassle factor is not an issue then turbo is still an option.
THE NUMBERS GAME
Do you want to play horsepower wars and have bragging rights? Turbo will have much greater power potential. The CT SC gives only a modest boost of HP (not Woo Hoo) but it is the least hassle (bolt on and go.) SOS SC with aftercool will get you 400-420 rwhp with AEM and tuning. The SC is a Keene Bell. This system probably has a hp ceiling of 500 but SC efficiency is not optimal at this level.
Now, you can never have too much power. You will get used to that 420 HP quickly and you probably might want more (worse than crack.) The big hp numbers (>500) are with the turbo, but there is always a price..major more hassle, time and money. You are now into major lower end engine revision ($8-10K) plus you really do need to beef up the rest of the car (transmission, cooling system, oil, intercooler, clutch, etc.)
It again comes down to your personal situation. I have owned my car since 1995. My desires at 53 are different then they were at 36 years old. I do not care about bragging rights, I am not going to become a street racer, drag racer or part-time semi-pro track racer. I just want to drive my car and have some fun without having to spend my weekends constantly messing with it.
I also do not like the driving characteristics of the typical turbo. Lag is an issue with turbo. My daily driver (Audi A4 with reprogramed ECU) is a turbo. I have to drop down two gears to spin up the turbo to get into power. Gearing is also a factor, I would presume that this situation would be worse with the earlier 5-speed gearbox. While many claim their set-ups have minimal lag, I would highly recommend driving one before taking the leap. What happens when you floor the accelerator at 1500 rpm in 4th gear? The plus side is the big WOO HOO when the turbo does go to boost.
Conversely, the SC is more like a big V8. Very linear power band, very responsive and a controlled throttle response. I chose the SOS SC with laminova aftercooler and AEM. I am finishing the install so I cannot yet relate perception with experience.
In regards to the original question....
There is no "right" answer to this question. There have been many, many threads on this subject; unfortunately, you have to filter A LOT for a few valuable and informative tidbits.
I agree with all quoted above except his last statement. I recently faced this choice, and I chose a SOS SC.
The choice IS a compromise:
PERSONAL FACTORS---Hassle, time and money
My car had not been driven for almost 8 years! I was an early adopter of a BBSC. I recognized the significant limitations of the fuel management system and did not drive it until I corrected the issues with an AEM. Unfortunately many other life issues got in the way and my "project" dragged on for years. The final rub was someone broke into my garage, stole my tools, and unbolted the blower from my car. I choose to get rid of the BBSC and start-over...since BBSC, the options have dramatically improved but the question remains: turbo vs SC.
After 8 years I am over it. I want a car that have some Woo Hoo BUT will be as reliable and hassle free as the day it came off the lot. I am over the constant hassle that some aftermarket changes create.
The CT and SOS SC are the only option for this. Bolt on, tune and DONE
By all accounts, the vehicle drives like a daily and is rock solid reliable.
This is not the case with any turbo kit. My impression is turbo will require constant fiddling and has a much higher hassle factor. There is a shop in Orlando well known to FL NSX owners, First Coast Automotive. The owner, Nabil, reported that he is constantly dealing with turbos problems, rarely if ever a SC.
If you have the time, interest and the hassle factor is not an issue then turbo is still an option.
THE NUMBERS GAME
Do you want to play horsepower wars and have bragging rights? Turbo will have much greater power potential. The CT SC gives only a modest boost of HP (not Woo Hoo) but it is the least hassle (bolt on and go.) SOS SC with aftercool will get you 400-420 rwhp with AEM and tuning. The SC is a Keene Bell. This system probably has a hp ceiling of 500 but SC efficiency is not optimal at this level.
Now, you can never have too much power. You will get used to that 420 HP quickly and you probably might want more (worse than crack.) The big hp numbers (>500) are with the turbo, but there is always a price..major more hassle, time and money. You are now into major lower end engine revision ($8-10K) plus you really do need to beef up the rest of the car (transmission, cooling system, oil, intercooler, clutch, etc.)
It again comes down to your personal situation. I have owned my car since 1995. My desires at 53 are different then they were at 36 years old. I do not care about bragging rights, I am not going to become a street racer, drag racer or part-time semi-pro track racer. I just want to drive my car and have some fun without having to spend my weekends constantly messing with it.
I also do not like the driving characteristics of the typical turbo. Lag is an issue with turbo. My daily driver (Audi A4 with reprogramed ECU) is a turbo. I have to drop down two gears to spin up the turbo to get into power. Gearing is also a factor, I would presume that this situation would be worse with the earlier 5-speed gearbox. While many claim their set-ups have minimal lag, I would highly recommend driving one before taking the leap. What happens when you floor the accelerator at 1500 rpm in 4th gear? The plus side is the big WOO HOO when the turbo does go to boost.
Conversely, the SC is more like a big V8. Very linear power band, very responsive and a controlled throttle response. I chose the SOS SC with laminova aftercooler and AEM. I am finishing the install so I cannot yet relate perception with experience.
There are nsx owners with superchargers that have had issues. There are nsx owners with turbo systems that have had no issues.
It really does come down to what you want from the car and, how much money you want to spend. What i WANT is always MORE than i can afford!!!
Angus turbo and Lovefab turbo's are probably the least expensive turbo system and are proven. Heck, lovefab gives you headers and all.
A bbsc properly tuned is the least expensive way to 400 hp.
For RESALE the autorotor type s/c'ers sell fast!
It really does come down to what you want from the car and, how much money you want to spend. What i WANT is always MORE than i can afford!!!
Angus turbo and Lovefab turbo's are probably the least expensive turbo system and are proven. Heck, lovefab gives you headers and all.
A bbsc properly tuned is the least expensive way to 400 hp.
For RESALE the autorotor type s/c'ers sell fast!
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Your first statement is a VERY, VERY BIG generalisation. Or let my say (no offense), your first statement says nothing, your last statement tells it all: CT kit sell fast because they are safe and fast enough for most people out there. :wink:
Re: SC vs Turbo
What happens is you should blip the throttle, downshift, and take off like a rocket. :wink: Guess what, you'd be doing that in a stock NSX too (only it'd be even worse since there's no huge wave of torque coming).
I've actually had people suggest that I should've bought a supercharger based on how I drive (keeping it at lower rpms most of the time). Having had my Angus turbo on my car for 3 years now I can safely say that with the smaller exhaust housing I put on mine the lag isn't bad at all. I bought a 2009 Forester XT and a 2011 STi and it made me realize that the Angus turbo isn't as laggy as I had originally thought (having had no prior experience with turbos). The NSX has way more balls on the low end than the STI does. I can put my foot to the floor in 1st gear in he STI and it doesn't move much until it hits 3200rpm. In the NSX if I put my foot to the floor I'd just be smoking the tires or going sideways off the road :biggrin:
My car is 400hp to the wheels, and I haven't yet wished it had more. I'm kinda hoping that I don't ever want more since it is a huge investment in a motor that I don't want to make. I'd rather buy a Murcielago than dump $20k into the motor in my NSX.
Notice how all 3 of the cars I own now are turbocharged? That's not a coincidence.
What happens is you should blip the throttle, downshift, and take off like a rocket. :wink: Guess what, you'd be doing that in a stock NSX too (only it'd be even worse since there's no huge wave of torque coming).
I've actually had people suggest that I should've bought a supercharger based on how I drive (keeping it at lower rpms most of the time). Having had my Angus turbo on my car for 3 years now I can safely say that with the smaller exhaust housing I put on mine the lag isn't bad at all. I bought a 2009 Forester XT and a 2011 STi and it made me realize that the Angus turbo isn't as laggy as I had originally thought (having had no prior experience with turbos). The NSX has way more balls on the low end than the STI does. I can put my foot to the floor in 1st gear in he STI and it doesn't move much until it hits 3200rpm. In the NSX if I put my foot to the floor I'd just be smoking the tires or going sideways off the road :biggrin:
My car is 400hp to the wheels, and I haven't yet wished it had more. I'm kinda hoping that I don't ever want more since it is a huge investment in a motor that I don't want to make. I'd rather buy a Murcielago than dump $20k into the motor in my NSX.
Notice how all 3 of the cars I own now are turbocharged? That's not a coincidence.
Another important fact that was not mentioned here is that not all "comptech package" cars are equally equipped.
Some cars have the SC, headers and exhaust and to some (especially a dealer selling you the car) the car automatically becomes a CT package car. If my car has the CTSC, headers, exhaust, F+R sway bars, targa compartment and intake box then what do I have? Extended package?
I am not 100% sure but I do remember reading here that someone bought a "full CT package" car for $120k that had all the stuff I have plus brembo BBK on all 4, CT coilovers and much more.
Good example here:
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124669&highlight=expensive+brembo+comptech
Some cars have the SC, headers and exhaust and to some (especially a dealer selling you the car) the car automatically becomes a CT package car. If my car has the CTSC, headers, exhaust, F+R sway bars, targa compartment and intake box then what do I have? Extended package
? I am not 100% sure but I do remember reading here that someone bought a "full CT package" car for $120k that had all the stuff I have plus brembo BBK on all 4, CT coilovers and much more.
Good example here:
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124669&highlight=expensive+brembo+comptech
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My statement was really in response to those saying the CT supercharger is bolt on a s/c and no problems. The CT is good for but for 11k it has competition.
A properly tuned bbsc, boostzilla
OR any turbo system out is just a safe and reliable as the CT s/cer. Plus they are cheaper. With the tuning options out today, it really boils down to what you want and how much you want to spend.
Re: SC vs Turbo
The lag in most other turbo cars can be an issue, but in the NSX the stock gearing is a plus for our cars, we are geared very low for a street car. 4.062 Ring and Pinion is quite low for a street car. This lets the car rev very quick and spool even quicker. Almost any turbo will spool by 3-4k rpms and a variable-vain will spool even quicker.
My CTSC was a HiBoost setup making 8.4 lbs peak boost my Turbos are set to make 8lbs with a 8.5lbs peak boost at 8k RPM and I am making similar boost at 4000 rpms with my twin turbo setup as I was with the CTSC by then the race is over because for every 1k rpm the CTSC just keep loosing ground to the turbos. So while the CTSC will beat my car from 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm from 4000 rpm to 8000 rpm my turbos will always be ahead of the CTSC setup. I have setup my car using twin variable-vain turbos, I am still playing with the vain controllers to tailor the torque curve to match my needs but now the limiting factor to a very quick spool is my clutch, the stock clutch will not hold through the shift if the turbos stay spooled at lower RPMs so untill I have time to drop in the new clutch I have the turbos set to spool as slow as possible.
This means that the same peak boost is achived but the time it takes to spool can be shortened by adjusting the controller. In my case on a typical 2k rpm 4th gear dynojet dyno (not load control) run I am making 2lbs at 2800 rpm, 2.5lbs at 3200 rpm, 3.0lbs at 3450 rpm, 3.5lbs at 3750 rpm, 4.0lbs at 4000 rpm, 4.5lbs at 4150 rpms, 5.0lbs at 4350 rpms, 5.5lbs at 4500 rpm, 6.0lbs at 4600 rpm, and target 8lbs of boost is reached at 5150 rpm. This makes a very linear like boost curve during the spooling of the turbos, similar to the CTSC. I can change this boost curve by adjusting the vain controller to move the target boost level hit at a earlier RPM. When the clutch is replaced I will be able to play with the controller and move the target boost down the RPM range. This will make them spool to peak boost quicker but my fear is it will spoil the feel of the car. After having the CTSC I like the feel of the twin screw at lower RPMs but love the turbo up top. I sort of have both now so I may keep it this way after I do some more testing.
I am running the FIC now and am waiting on AEM to release the new Infinity EMS so I can use it to run the DBW and the vain controller, then I will have a programmable boost peak and curve without piggy backing on the OEM ECU.
Dave
The lag in most other turbo cars can be an issue, but in the NSX the stock gearing is a plus for our cars, we are geared very low for a street car. 4.062 Ring and Pinion is quite low for a street car. This lets the car rev very quick and spool even quicker. Almost any turbo will spool by 3-4k rpms and a variable-vain will spool even quicker.
My CTSC was a HiBoost setup making 8.4 lbs peak boost my Turbos are set to make 8lbs with a 8.5lbs peak boost at 8k RPM and I am making similar boost at 4000 rpms with my twin turbo setup as I was with the CTSC by then the race is over because for every 1k rpm the CTSC just keep loosing ground to the turbos. So while the CTSC will beat my car from 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm from 4000 rpm to 8000 rpm my turbos will always be ahead of the CTSC setup. I have setup my car using twin variable-vain turbos, I am still playing with the vain controllers to tailor the torque curve to match my needs but now the limiting factor to a very quick spool is my clutch, the stock clutch will not hold through the shift if the turbos stay spooled at lower RPMs so untill I have time to drop in the new clutch I have the turbos set to spool as slow as possible.
This means that the same peak boost is achived but the time it takes to spool can be shortened by adjusting the controller. In my case on a typical 2k rpm 4th gear dynojet dyno (not load control) run I am making 2lbs at 2800 rpm, 2.5lbs at 3200 rpm, 3.0lbs at 3450 rpm, 3.5lbs at 3750 rpm, 4.0lbs at 4000 rpm, 4.5lbs at 4150 rpms, 5.0lbs at 4350 rpms, 5.5lbs at 4500 rpm, 6.0lbs at 4600 rpm, and target 8lbs of boost is reached at 5150 rpm. This makes a very linear like boost curve during the spooling of the turbos, similar to the CTSC. I can change this boost curve by adjusting the vain controller to move the target boost level hit at a earlier RPM. When the clutch is replaced I will be able to play with the controller and move the target boost down the RPM range. This will make them spool to peak boost quicker but my fear is it will spoil the feel of the car. After having the CTSC I like the feel of the twin screw at lower RPMs but love the turbo up top. I sort of have both now so I may keep it this way after I do some more testing.
I am running the FIC now and am waiting on AEM to release the new Infinity EMS so I can use it to run the DBW and the vain controller, then I will have a programmable boost peak and curve without piggy backing on the OEM ECU.
Dave
I don't think any nsx owners with a ctsc said the ctsc is the best out there. Most ctsc owners chose them due to smog issue, especially in CA.
CTSC really does have a nice curve. We could not tell where the VTEC was engaging. Could you?
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<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Dyno_Comp_of_BBSC_Turbo_CTSC_stock_8lbs.jpg" />
This is the best way I can show the differences between a CTSC, BBSC, and Turbo. All these were from the same dyno, all cars are running very similar boost levels 8-8.5 lbs, all are on pump gas, all are not running meth, the turbo is a 3.2l and the CTSC & BBSC are 3.0l, all are stock bottom ends, all are running similar AFR's but due to IAT timing numbers are very different on each setup. I have included the base line stock pull from the 3.2l for refference.
I have seperated the torque and HP graphs to make things easier to see, draw from it what you will but this is the best way to see how each system effects HP and Torque throughout the rev range.
Dave
This is the best way I can show the differences between a CTSC, BBSC, and Turbo. All these were from the same dyno, all cars are running very similar boost levels 8-8.5 lbs, all are on pump gas, all are not running meth, the turbo is a 3.2l and the CTSC & BBSC are 3.0l, all are stock bottom ends, all are running similar AFR's but due to IAT timing numbers are very different on each setup. I have included the base line stock pull from the 3.2l for refference.
I have seperated the torque and HP graphs to make things easier to see, draw from it what you will but this is the best way to see how each system effects HP and Torque throughout the rev range.
Dave
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