S/C NSX That Much Faster Than Stock?

[02SilverNSX]

Thanks for all the info. There was a question about how I was coming up with the $25K. I was looking at the complete CTSC package:

CTSC = $11K
Headers = $1.5K
Exhaust = $1.2K
High Flow intake = $0.7K
There's $14.3K + labor ($4k) = $18.3K.

I'm assuming if I want to maximize the power to the pavement I'll need wider tires (and new rims to fit the tires) = $4K. I like the Volk TE37's but am still figuring out what makes sense for a high quality tire/rim combo. Afterall, that's why I own an NSX -- for the exceptional quality. And of course for the beautiful lines of car and performance!

I also assume I'll need a stronger clutch ($2K + labor) and better brakes (Brembo + labor) = $5K if I want to control the power safely.

Finally, I'll at least need a sway bar or some slight suspension mods (another $500?) for stability.

So, that's how I'm coming up with numbers in the $25K range. I figure if I really want to do it right that's what it will cost. If someone has a different roadmap of how best to proceed please let me know as I'm still very much in research mode.

I'm an electrical engineer so I typically approach things analytically. And the numbers I was seeing from a stock NSX to an NSX with a CTSC kit just weren't adding up. I was trying to determine where the 100hp+ was showing up. Since it didn't seem to be at the low end I was assuming it must be more at the top end. I'll think the thing to do is to ride in one that has an SC kit or turbos and just see what it feels like.

I'm in Redondo Beach if anyone with a modifed NSX is just passing through...

I appreciate the time each of you took to comment. Very informative.

 

[NetViper]

Thanks for all the info. There was a question about how I was coming up with the $25K. I was looking at the complete CTSC package:

CTSC = $11K
Headers = $1.5K
Exhaust = $1.2K
High Flow intake = $0.7K
There's $14.3K + labor ($4k) = $18.3K.

I'm assuming if I want to maximize the power to the pavement I'll need wider tires (and new rims to fit the tires) = $4K. I like the Volk TE37's but am still figuring out what makes sense for a high quality tire/rim combo. Afterall, that's why I own an NSX -- for the exceptional quality. And of course for the beautiful lines of car and performance!

I also assume I'll need a stronger clutch ($2K + labor) and better brakes (Brembo + labor) = $5K if I want to control the power safely.

Finally, I'll at least need a sway bar or some slight suspension mods (another $500?) for stability.

So, that's how I'm coming up with numbers in the $25K range. I figure if I really want to do it right that's what it will cost. If someone has a different roadmap of how best to proceed please let me know as I'm still very much in research mode.

I'm an electrical engineer so I typically approach things analytically. And the numbers I was seeing from a stock NSX to an NSX with a CTSC kit just weren't adding up. I was trying to determine where the 100hp+ was showing up. Since it didn't seem to be at the low end I was assuming it must be more at the top end. I'll think the thing to do is to ride in one that has an SC kit or turbos and just see what it feels like.

I'm in Redondo Beach if anyone with a modifed NSX is just passing through...

I appreciate the time each of you took to comment. Very informative.

With a CTSC, you don't need to worry about a new clutch -- at least not right away. A lot of people run the stock clutch until it gives out.

You don't need bigger tires or sways.

All of that stuff will help, but its not necessary.

Still, the angus kit for $6795 will blow away any CTSC, and if you get bored with the power, it is much easier to make more. (though you need an engine build)

 

[yamahaSHO]

Still, the angus kit for $6795 will blow away any CTSC, and if you get bored with the power, it is much easier to make more. (though you need an engine build)

After looking at the CTSC kit, I would definitely recommend taking the above advice and going with a turbo setup. $10k is a little excessive for the power advertised.

 

[s14_tat]

Who ever runs a 13.2 with a CTSC nsx really needs to learn to drive since we have seen some people run 12.8 n/a. Also the type of super charger matters a lot. The older style lysholm super charger was not very efficient and did not add much power over stock. However when they switched to either the autorotor style or the kenny belle style, thats when your hitting 400whp on high boost. Theoretically speaking if you can trap 115-117mph in the 1/4 mile you shouldl be running mid to low 12 seconds. That puts the NSX on par with the first gen lambo gallardo's and can beat all the vipers until it became the SRT10.

 

[ken sampson]

If I was to start all over today I would have Hogan build me an IC intake to retain my targa in the engine compartment. Then purchase a 2.9L Whipple SC with and after market computer. This is an easy 500HP set up. I have not had mine tune with this setup only the 2.3L Whipple. That was 520Hp at the Flywheel. If you go to the calculator and input HP to weight this would be the estimated 0 to 60MPH.0-60 times that are calculated should be reasonably accurate for most cars.

http://www.060calculator.com/
Horsepower (at the flywheel) 520hp
Curb Weight 2950 lbs Drive Type RWD
Transmission Manual Automatic Dual Clutch
Power / Weight Ratio: 0.176
0-60 mph: 3.073 seconds
At 600 HP 0 to 60 are 2.76

Total cost should be around 12K

I would say a SC adds one hell of an increase.

 

[ANYTIME]

Who ever runs a 13.2 with a CTSC nsx really needs to learn to drive since we have seen some people run 12.8 n/a. Also the type of super charger matters a lot. The older style lysholm super charger was not very efficient and did not add much power over stock. However when they switched to either the autorotor style or the kenny belle style, thats when your hitting 400whp on high boost. Theoretically speaking if you can trap 115-117mph in the 1/4 mile you shouldl be running mid to low 12 seconds. That puts the NSX on par with the first gen lambo gallardo's and can beat all the vipers until it became the SRT10.

My old lysholm on my 3.2L dynoed at 379 RWHP, which pretty much sucks :biggrin:

 

[s14_tat]

My old lysholm on my 3.2L dynoed at 379 RWHP, which pretty much sucks :biggrin:

Those are really good numbers. I remember seeing Jeff Ling's numbers and they were very very very low for a super charged NSX, and if I remember correctly most dyno in the low 300 range which is why comptech switched to the auto rotor style. How big was your lysholm blower?

 

[ozone]

If I was to start all over today I would have Hogan build me an IC intake to retain my targa in the engine compartment. Then purchase a 2.9L Whipple SC with and after market computer. This is an easy 500HP set up. I have not had mine tune with this setup only the 2.3L Whipple. That was 520Hp at the Flywheel. If you go to the calculator and input HP to weight this would be the estimated 0 to 60MPH.0-60 times that are calculated should be reasonably accurate for most cars.

http://www.060calculator.com/
Horsepower (at the flywheel) 520hp
Curb Weight 2950 lbs Drive Type RWD
Transmission Manual Automatic Dual Clutch
Power / Weight Ratio: 0.176
0-60 mph: 3.073 seconds
At 600 HP 0 to 60 are 2.76

Total cost should be around 12K

I would say a SC adds one hell of an increase.

Who exactly is Hogan? Retaining the targa cover top holder would be a nice bonus.

 

[ken sampson]

http://www.hogansracingmanifolds.com/

I hand built mine to do all the same and works great. you can see mine on the link below. targa fits like stock. I run a 2.5" thick standard whipple cooler.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90136&page=2

 

[BATMANs]

For 25k you could be around 500 rwhp.

If that $25k includes opening up the engine with forced induction, I would think that the NSX can afford more boost and 600rwhp seems more attainable.

come for a ride in mine , science of speed supercharger, their full intercooler kit and comptech headers and exhaust stock intake there is no camparison it is a beast set for low boost about 390hp at the wheels , i find this the best power to weight ratio for my taste. the car still feels factory refined . it is sick as you know what campared to stock. i live in the sullivan county catskills you are open to come for a test ride

I'm making 405rwhp with my SOS SC (smog legal with cats). Supporting mods (minus the STMPO straight pipes) would be in my signature. What's different about your setup?

Just took a ride on track in my friends NSX with a SoS Kennie Bell system that Chris sells. The kit runs for just under $11k with the AEM EMS. The car is identical to mine 91 Blk/Ivory 50,000 miles. Cost to install and tune was about $2,500 it puts down near 370whp. It feels so nice you wont believe it. He has the stock gearing in and the Advanced headers and exhaust from SoS........

Same question here. What other mods do you have?

What is considered high boost with autorotor?

going from 6-7 to 9-10 lbs?

This sounds about right.

It sounds like 400 is the magic number on many a thread on Prime. Any more and then you have to get into the engine.

400rwhp - 450rwhp is a sweet spot for a street NSX (and even some tracks). I can't imagine using any more HP than that on the streets with 275 rear tires running something like Z1 Star Specs. It would be just silly tire spin all day long....... unless that's what people are looking for.

.....when I was at 380ish on 6psi, i tho it was freakin fun until I crank up the boost to 8psi and made a bit over 450. WOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!!!!! That's all I can say.

Which SC and mods do you have?

.....the best part about the turbocharger is that it has no limits.....

I think you meant to say there are higher limits or the flexibility of being able to adjust the boost on the fly from the cockpit.

Not sure if anyone knows this, but a 2.1 liter Kenne Bell SC that SOS uses in their SC is good for up to 26psi. I can't imagine a street faring turbo'd NSX running 26psi all day long (esp with pump gas).

 

[BATMANs]

Who ever runs a 13.2 with a CTSC nsx really needs to learn to drive since we have seen some people run 12.8 n/a. Also the type of super charger matters a lot. The older style lysholm super charger was not very efficient and did not add much power over stock. However when they switched to either the autorotor style or the kenny belle style, thats when your hitting 400whp on high boost. Theoretically speaking if you can trap 115-117mph in the 1/4 mile you shouldl be running mid to low 12 seconds. That puts the NSX on par with the first gen lambo gallardo's and can beat all the vipers until it became the SRT10.

My old lysholm on my 3.2L dynoed at 379 RWHP, which pretty much sucks :biggrin:

Those are really good numbers. I remember seeing Jeff Ling's numbers and they were very very very low for a super charged NSX, and if I remember correctly most dyno in the low 300 range which is why comptech switched to the auto rotor style. How big was your lysholm blower?

I believe that the first Lysholm SC for the NSX was a smaller displacement one. couple that and what typically is one less screw blade than the Autorotor/kenne bell SC and there are definite power issues.

 

[TurboD16]

For 25 grand you could have a new SOS twin turbo kit and built 3.2l, doing 600whp.

Look more into the 12 grand area for a good safe S/C kit with the laminova

 

[3.5lnsxr]

I had read throughout the thread and seem like turbo produce more power than supercharge, but why supercharge is more expensive than turbo? Anyone care to answer this for me?

 

[DucatiCraig]

I had read throughout the thread and seem like turbo produce more power than supercharge, but why supercharge is more expensive than turbo? Anyone care to answer this for me?

Well, I'll take a stab at this one.

Let me rephrase that... A supercharger is more expensive than a turbo FOR ANY GIVEN POWER LEVEL. (eg. a 400hp with a supercharger is more expensive than 400hp with a Turbo, as is 500, 600, etc.)

I'll give you 4 reasons:

1.) For starters, the fixed cost of the differing components (a turbo vs. supercharger) is slightly higher for a supercharger.

2.) Once you crack about 425ish hp, you are looking at some kind of intercooling, which is cheaper to do with a turbo (which can use an air to air or air to water intercooler in various locations), versus a SC which must get the job done between the SC and the intake valves, which is more expensive real estate, and inherently an air to water affair, with the requisite pumps, lines, etc.

3.) Whatever intercooling you do for a turbo will probably result in a charge air temperature that is lower than for a supercharger aftercooler, as you are very limited in your heat exchanger core size in a SC aftercooler, which may I add is mounted in the intake manifold which will soak up heat from the motor as well as from the intake charge. Certainly per unit of cost, you will get a much lower charge air temp for a turbo than a SC, which will allow you to tune for more power.

4.) And, for any given power level, you are looking at probably 10% - 15% parasitic losses to drive the supercharger, so a 400hp SC setup is actually a 450hp setup with 50hp going to drive the SC and not the rear wheels.


The $1,000,000 question then is why on earth would anyone (like me) waste their time with supercharging, unless (unlike me) they have money to burn???

:biggrin:

 

[BATMANs]

Well, I'll take a stab at this one.

Let me rephrase that... A supercharger is more expensive than a turbo FOR ANY GIVEN POWER LEVEL. (eg. a 400hp with a supercharger is more expensive than 400hp with a Turbo, as is 500, 600, etc.)

I'll give you 4 reasons:

1.) For starters, the fixed cost of the differing components (a turbo vs. supercharger) is slightly higher for a supercharger.

2.) Once you crack about 425ish hp, you are looking at some kind of intercooling, which is cheaper to do with a turbo (which can use an air to air or air to water intercooler in various locations), versus a SC which must get the job done between the SC and the intake valves, which is more expensive real estate, and inherently an air to water affair, with the requisite pumps, lines, etc.

3.) Whatever intercooling you do for a turbo will probably result in a charge air temperature that is lower than for a supercharger aftercooler, as you are very limited in your heat exchanger core size in a SC aftercooler, which may I add is mounted in the intake manifold which will soak up heat from the motor as well as from the intake charge. Certainly per unit of cost, you will get a much lower charge air temp for a turbo than a SC, which will allow you to tune for more power.

4.) And, for any given power level, you are looking at probably 10% - 15% parasitic losses to drive the supercharger, so a 400hp SC setup is actually a 450hp setup with 50hp going to drive the SC and not the rear wheels.


The $1,000,000 question then is why on earth would anyone (like me) waste their time with supercharging, unless (unlike me) they have money to burn???

:biggrin:

The main reason why Superchargers are big with the NSX is that they were pretty much the first and (for a while) the only FI solution that was "safe" in terms of passing emissions and the boost (at the time when they first came out) was relatively low.

In the case of the Twin Screw SC (and especially the Autorotor/Kenne Bell) there is ALOT more CNC Machining to produce one. Turbos and Centrifical SC (the ones that look like a turbo) are cheaper to make.

 

[kookoo4nsx]

Craig,

Excellent post.

 

[NetViper]

The main reason why Superchargers are big with the NSX is that they were pretty much the first and (for a while) the only FI solution that was "safe" in terms of passing emissions and the boost (at the time when they first came out) was relatively low.

In the case of the Twin Screw SC (and especially the Autorotor/Kenne Bell) there is ALOT more CNC Machining to produce one. Turbos and Centrifical SC (the ones that look like a turbo) are cheaper to make.

The reason I think is because fuel management was a big issue. Comptech nailed it with their kit -- nobody else did.

Today is a different world with AEM/AEM-FIC. That has brought a lot of different options to the NSX world.

The main reason to get a CTSC today would be if you had to pass emissions, which all other kits fail.

 

[ozone]

The reason I think is because fuel management was a big issue. Comptech nailed it with their kit -- nobody else did.

Today is a different world with AEM/AEM-FIC. That has brought a lot of different options to the NSX world.

The main reason to get a CTSC today would be if you had to pass emissions, which all other kits fail.

Doesn't the SOS-Laminova SC pass? I think somebody mentioned in a earlier thread it passed emmissions. Not sure about CARB (dont' have that in NY).

 

[BATMANs]

Doesn't the SOS-Laminova SC pass? I think somebody mentioned in a earlier thread it passed emmissions. Not sure about CARB (dont' have that in NY).

Virtually any FI an be made to pass the sniffer with proper tuning and cats, but the SOS SC does not have the CARB EO# and thereforce it's technically smog illegal.

Since it visually looks identical to the untrained smog tech eyes, one can tell them the CTSC EO# for their references and it should pass.

 

[omega2]

Thanks for all the info. There was a question about how I was coming up with the $25K. I was looking at the complete CTSC package:

CTSC = $11K
Headers = $1.5K
Exhaust = $1.2K
High Flow intake = $0.7K
There's $14.3K + labor ($4k) = $18.3K.

How come labor is $4k? Is the engine or transmission getting rebuilt? I wouldn't obsess too much over which system produces the most power, since your main limitation will be California emissions requirements (CARB) and the factory engine. Even with the CTSC, you'll have more than enough performance for most applications. You'll probably nail the speed limit a lot faster than before and get stuck in traffic again.

I read an article in import tuner where other states will or already have adopted the CARB requirements. So far all non-Californians, enjoy the test pipes and turbo kits while you can:biggrin:

 

[ANYTIME]

Those are really good numbers. I remember seeing Jeff Ling's numbers and they were very very very low for a super charged NSX, and if I remember correctly most dyno in the low 300 range which is why comptech switched to the auto rotor style. How big was your lysholm blower?

The blower that comptech supplied with the kit, as in the normal one everyone got. I am running low boost also :biggrin:

 

[02SilverNSX]

To Omega2's question on why $4K for labor. Although my NSX just turned over 20,000 miles it is 8 years old. The Acura dealer recommended changing the timing belt which is probably a good idea. The dealer's price for replacing the timing belt is $2,800. I've called a couple of shops to get quotes for changing the timing belt, installing the CTSC kit and a new clutch. The price is around $4K. Does that seem too high?

 

[SexyRed]

Those are really good numbers. I remember seeing Jeff Ling's numbers and they were very very very low for a super charged NSX, and if I remember correctly most dyno in the low 300 range which is why comptech switched to the auto rotor style. How big was your lysholm blower?

Jeff Ling's car dyno 360 1.6L blower high boost with a 3.0L motor. It is on par for a 3.0 motor. 3.2L usually dyno 20 horse more.

Of course all that change when he went with the bigger blower.

 

[s14_tat]

He must've been on low boost when they did a article on his car a few years back.

edit: nevermind, I found the article. He made 309whp at 9psi, something must be wrong with this car during that test. Here is the link to the article

http://www.modified.com/features/0412_sccp_1992_acura_nsx/index.html

 

[RYU]

I'm in Redondo Beach if anyone with a modifed NSX is just passing through...

I appreciate the time each of you took to comment. Very informative.

You're in Socal. Actually, right near me. If you go to the Socal meets 1 out of 5ish NSXs (shooting from the hip) that attend are boosted.

I've personally had the pleasure of driving a CTSC Autorotor/Laminova vs. Angus' kit. You can do all the bench racing for initial research purposes but nothing beats a live test drive even if just to be a passenger.