RS*R Ran Up tested on my CTSC NSX (pics, dyno graphs, and overall disbelief inside)

[nsxnut]

What is the purpose of the oil in the supercharger unit? To reduce friction between the internal SC gears.

What would happen if one was able to further reduce the frictionr? The SC would spool up faster, and make more boost. And that's exactly what happened.

Or, let's go in the other direction - what if you were to increase the drag between the gears?

We went into this dyno session with hypotheses, and these were the results.

To call the results for boost bogus when we had TWO separate instruments measuring boost is rather bold on your part.

Nope.

Unless the belt slips there will be NO difference. Simple physics.
Lube doesn't cause the supercharger to spin faster...

with every rotation the supercharger put out x amount of air. the lube doesn't cause the supercharger to rotate faster. It doesn't change the drive ratio.

If the belt is slipping than there may be an effect if after the lube it doesn't slip. Slipping will occur with higher boost pressure. "more load"

I didn't say the rest of the data was bogus...
Just that the boost pressure doesn't look correct.


Later,
Don

 

[Ponyboy]

Wow, numbers look promising. The variation is too high to be attributed to temperature, etc. IIRC, Turbo or Import Tuner did a "Fact or Fiction" test on this a year ago and had good results. The whole increase in boost efficiency is strange though.

It's natural that people are skeptical but if the results are there, it's difficult to reasonably refute. Kudos for performing the testing.

 

[kaede]

These guys are local...interesting...

You should check it out >=] If indeed it is similar materials then RS-R is REALLY making a huge profit @ $50 a pop.

 

[FastraxTurbo]

As Greenberet stated, I think the pressure increase is not directly due to the additive itself, but the degree of belt slippage based on the coefficieednt of drag of the supercharger. The additive probably did reduce the drag of the supercharger, which allowed for better grip of the belt.
I once tuned a car with a SC and peak boost was about 6psi. Customer claimed he has a high boost pulley, so I tightened the tensioner slightly. Boost then came up about 1 psi throughout the rpm range. Another half turn or so of the tensioner raised pressure another 1 psi. Kept going and ended up about 9 psi. I didnt have a tensiometer, but belt tension felt pretty high.
As long as the additive doesnt have long term detrimental effects, I believe it would greatly enhance longevity of the supercharger by reducing bearing load and lowering frictional losses.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I think you guys are nuts. If this thing had any real value you'd see it in the mix of every oil manufacturer's oil. The thousands of chemists and engineers at penzoil, castrol, valvoline, Mobil, aren't stupid. They probably see this kind of thing all the time, I am sure they test similar things.... and unlike these guys, they can be sued and are responsible for the engines of millions of cars from Prius's to Bugattis. I just can't believe you guys read an article or two on the internet or in "import tuner" and think this little bottle will deliver you power without long term bad effects. Sold by who.... Basically a nobody in the oil world. How does that make sense. I bought some goofy spark plug years back when I was a stupid 19 year old that promised more power, tested by turbo magazine. Instead of the standard L tip, it had a ring that surrounded the electrode. Made by some new company and fully dyno tested. I bought the snake oil and the tip came off and logged itself into my piston. I found it after I pulled the head off because some crap had travelled through the motor, into the turbo, and blown up the turbine. Cost me about $6000. Are you all too young to remember slick 50? How many oil passages it blocked over time and all the law suits that went with it?

You're really willing to just put some untested shit into your NSX motor for a supposed 3-5 HP?

 

[greenberet]

I’d guess a positive displacement supercharger that shoves, say, two liters of air into an engine that would only inhale 1.5 liters per revolution in naturally aspirated form requires a certain amount of energy to shove that air in per revolution. The torque should remain pretty much constant at all engine speeds until it starts increasing at higher rpm when the air resistance past the intake valves, etc. really starts going up exponentially. If the belt is already slipping at low rpm I can see how reducing the friction in the blower can reduce belt slip and therefore increase boost throughout the rev range. If the belt is already slipping at 3000 rpm that would suck, though.

What’s more puzzling is why the chart shows a 1.5 psi increase in boost at all rpm when something was done to the engine oil. What oil is in the engine should have no impact on how fast the supercharger is spinning, should it?

 

[liftnot]

As Greenberet stated, I think the pressure increase is not directly due to the additive itself, but the degree of belt slippage based on the coefficieednt of drag of the supercharger. The additive probably did reduce the drag of the supercharger, which allowed for better grip of the belt.
I once tuned a car with a SC and peak boost was about 6psi. Customer claimed he has a high boost pulley, so I tightened the tensioner slightly. Boost then came up about 1 psi throughout the rpm range. Another half turn or so of the tensioner raised pressure another 1 psi. Kept going and ended up about 9 psi. I didnt have a tensiometer, but belt tension felt pretty high.
As long as the additive doesnt have long term detrimental effects, I believe it would greatly enhance longevity of the supercharger by reducing bearing load and lowering frictional losses.

Now Boys and Girls, listen to a real racer. Thx for sharing.

 

[RYU]

Now Boys and Girls, listen to a real racer. Thx for sharing.

My sentiments exactly. Thanks for sharing your thoughts fastraxTurbo.

Once I get a chance to find some open deserted road i'll do another run while the car is not heatsoaked. I have several logs from before the ran-up that shows a steady 7lbs of boost measured with a electronic MAP sensor directly from the IM. Again, as mentioned in my original post, RS*R tapped into one of my vacuum hoses. If my own data logs show 8-9lbs of WOT boost (not heat soaked) then this may get more interesting.

I'll log back in and post those data logs.

 

[Moses]

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_1012_rs_r_ran_up_engine_oil_additive/

 

[nsxnut]

What’s more puzzling is why the chart shows a 1.5 psi increase in boost at all rpm when something was done to the engine oil. What oil is in the engine should have no impact on how fast the supercharger is spinning, should it?

If you look at the three boost curves they all appear to be identical. Just a static offset from each other.
I don’t think slipping would cause this. As the load increases than it will begin to slip.

Why would adding this to the crank case increase boost?

If indeed the boost did increase when added to the crank case, I would be very worried.
What would cause this? This stuff doesn’t change valve timing.

If for some reason this was clogging up your exhaust/cat than boost pressure will increase. :frown:
Same effect as putting a stock exhaust on a boosted car. Back pressure can cause boost presser to increase.

If the rings were not sealing this stuff somehow managed to seal things up than you will see an increase in boost pressure. :frown:

Maybe the valve guides are leaking and this seals things up? What is that whistle? Not likely!

if this magical stuff is good for the crank case than adding to the blower is probably ok as well.
Indeed reducing friction in the blower will also yield more rear wheel power. :smile:

 

[cptnsx]

I think you guys are nuts. If this thing had any real value you'd see it in the mix of every oil manufacturer's oil. The thousands of chemists and engineers at penzoil, castrol, valvoline, Mobil, aren't stupid. They probably see this kind of thing all the time, I am sure they test similar things.... and unlike these guys, they can be sued and are responsible for the engines of millions of cars from Prius's to Bugattis. I just can't believe you guys read an article or two on the internet or in "import tuner" and think this little bottle will deliver you power without long term bad effects. Sold by who.... Basically a nobody in the oil world. How does that make sense. I bought some goofy spark plug years back when I was a stupid 19 year old that promised more power, tested by turbo magazine. Instead of the standard L tip, it had a ring that surrounded the electrode. Made by some new company and fully dyno tested. I bought the snake oil and the tip came off and logged itself into my piston. I found it after I pulled the head off because some crap had travelled through the motor, into the turbo, and blown up the turbine. Cost me about $6000. Are you all too young to remember slick 50? How many oil passages it blocked over time and all the law suits that went with it?

You're really willing to just put some untested shit into your NSX motor for a supposed 3-5 HP?

There is an oil with this stuff in it. The OEM Nissan / Infiniti Ester Synthetic 5w30 Motor Oil. I also have a G37S Convertible and I'm getting ready to try the oil. Maybe I'll buy enough for my NSX. But it cost 12.29 per quart. This is some of the patent summary.

NANOPARTICLE-CONTAINING LUBRICATING OIL COMPOSITIONS

(57) [Object] To provide a nanoparticle-containing lubri-cating oil composition which demonstrates a low friction coefficient and realizes a further fuel economy.

[Solving Means] A nanoparticle-containing lubricating oil composition comprising a base oil, an additive hav- ing hydroxyl group, and nanoparticle. A nanoparticle- containing lubricating oil composition comprising a base oil, an ashless friction modifier having hydroxyl group, and nanoparticle. A nanoparticle-containing lubricating oil composition comprising a base oil, an additive having hydroxyl group, and nanoparticle having a particle diam- eterof1to100nm. A nanoparticle-containing lubricating oil composition comprising a base oil, an ashless friction modifier having hydroxyl group, and nanoparticle having a particle diameter of 1 to 100 nm.

Do a search at bobistheoilguy.com. They have oil chemist who post there about this stuff.

 

[mochanges]

If this thing had any real value you'd see it in the mix of every oil manufacturer's oil. The thousands of chemists and engineers at penzoil, castrol, valvoline, Mobil, aren't stupid. They probably see this kind of thing all the time, I am sure they test similar things.... and unlike these guys, they can be sued and are responsible for the engines of millions of cars from Prius's to Bugattis. I just can't believe you guys read an article or two on the internet or in "import tuner" and think this little bottle will deliver you power without long term bad effects.

You're really willing to just put some untested shit into your NSX motor for a supposed 3-5 HP?

No you wouldn't because every manufacturer has to make compromises to reach volume, cost, nvh and profit goals. These companies aren't going to make a $12 a quart oil or a $1,200 set of headers and expect to keep their shareholders happy. This is why there are huge gains to be made by putting on a set of headers and an intake on a WRX STi or a GT-R. Under your argument there is no benefit to buying any performance part because the big companies have already maximized the performance. We all know that's not always the case. If you took the time to research this additive you'd see that the powder is a well known lubricant.

In regards to relying on magazine articles and trusting others' results, don't most people do that with every power adder? We trust vendors, manufacturers and magazines' dyno results all the time. I'm guessing most people on here trust other posters' dyno results when deciding on which parts to buy, and that's no more reliable than what's been posted here. People aren't dynoing every part to verify gains.

I personally am taking a wait and see approach here. If you have a bad gut feeling so be it but your arguments against this product as articulated aren't persuasive to me.

 

[UnhuZ]

^ i agree... but a set of Headers or a exhaust don't have a chance to damage your engine internals,
oil additives do have that chance.... and while everything seems fine and awesome on these tests,
it makes me think in the long run.... in about 50K, or 100K miles how will be the health of the engine??

i share the same concearns Dave has... and don't get me wrong, because i think that anything that
improves the performance of the NSX is worth take a look into... but with proper precaution on the
consequences..

Nuno

 

[TURBO2GO]

Well with a header you can always take it back off. But you can't take long term engine damage caused by an oil additive back off. I really think if there was some serious benefit every oil maker would jump on it and come up with a premium priced oil for even more profit.

Anyway, just my opinion, I don't mean to sound negative or derail the thread. I would just hate to see any of you regret this. I hope it turns out ok. I'm just skeptical of these things. Seen it too many times.

LOL Nuno we just posted the same thing....

 

[Blacknot]

I'm planning on trying it in my SC. Seems like it would work and being the SC is gear driven. I will be curious to see if it builds boost quicker.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Well with a header you can always take it back off. But you can't take long term engine damage caused by an oil additive back off. I really think if there was some serious benefit every oil maker would jump on it and come up with a premium priced oil for even more profit.

Anyway, just my opinion, I don't mean to sound negative or derail the thread. I would just hate to see any of you regret this. I hope it turns out ok. I'm just skeptical of these things. Seen it too many times.

LOL Nuno we just posted the same thing....

Dave the "magic powder" in Ran Up is WS2 (aka Tungsten Disulfate). It has a long history in industrial applications. Supposedly it has been used ' F1 as well, but I haven't found any evidence of that other than anecdotal.

Why do the auto motor oil companies not use it? Cost. Until recently it was very, very expensive to mill to achieve particles small enough that would stay in suspension and be small enough to flow through oil filters.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So then if costs have come down, we should it become more prevalent? My main concern is build up of some sort over time. Has anyone done LONG TERM test of this in car applications? Everything I've seen so far seems pretty short term so far.

 

[davidf]

Where to purchase a bottle? I'll give it a whurl.

 

[kaede]

Where to purchase a bottle? I'll give it a whurl.

You can order it on various online websites or directly from them right here: http://store.rs-r.com/products/ran-up

On the NSX? Wish me luck as well! I am going to order one first to try it out and then do a UOA on my dad's Van. I won't be putting this thing into my NSX or my DD (335i) just yet... still paranoid about the long term effects, potential build up, etc etc.

 

[davidf]

You can order it on various online websites or directly from them right here: http://store.rs-r.com/products/ran-up

On the NSX? Wish me luck as well! I am going to order one first to try it out and then do a UOA on my dad's Van. I won't be putting this thing into my NSX or my DD (335i) just yet... still paranoid about the long term effects, potential build up, etc etc.

Thanks.

 

[RYU]

I'll be buying a case of this stuff wholesale. I'll have extras.

 

[kaede]

I'll be buying a case of this stuff wholesale. I'll have extras.

Will you be nice to sell to us for cheaper + shipped to WA? haha :biggrin: If so I want two please!!

- - - Updated - - -

http://lowerfriction.com/product-page.php?categoryID=21

Anyone in GTA got a chance to check these guys out? Cause if the essential lubricating substances are the same, then this a much better deal!!

For those who are interested, I will be sending a virgin sample of the RS-R Ran-up to a local chem lab where my brother works to get the break down of everything to see if i can find out what exactly this magic powder is =D UOA will come later~

 

[dablackgoku1234]

Anyone in GTA got a chance to check these guys out?

I emailed them but no response. The address on the site mapped to a residential house. I think the guy is home based and possibly is no longer in business.

 

[davidf]

I'll be buying a case of this stuff wholesale. I'll have extras.

I'll take a bottle from you if your selling. Just LMK how much shipped throught PP. Thanks.

 

[NetViper]

You guys are brave risking your motor on an unproven product. You know what they say, if it sounds too good to be true....