Revisited Gen1 NSX vs R8 -- Long-Term Value

[oldnews]

If could get an NSX for US$18.5k I am buying it on the spot...let me know when you are bored

One was listed up here with very high miles for CDN$23k but the seller never responded to me...

...I can see why people have to wait to find the right deal!

You're only a few years behind. About 6 to 8 I think.

 

[95nsxtc]

I was referring the R8 overall, not pricing for any specific variant. However when I do a search on autotrader.com I see this....

R8 manual = 104 cars
R8 auto = 216 cars

Unlike the NSX the majority of original R8 buyers actually wanted an automatic! While I am sure there are enthusiasts who will pay extra for a manual, there were simply too many manuals made for it to ever be considered rare. Thus the R8 manual will probably never have the same level of demand as something like an F430 manual.

The current asking prices for used R8s on autotrader.com confirm what I'm saying.....

Manual R8 - $150K (high), $102K (avg), $56K (low)
Auto R8 - $198K (high), $113K (avg), $65K (low)

The above stats are misleading, try looking to see at what lower price bound the majority of cars begin. I see the majority of cars beginning at around $70K regardless of whether it's a manual or automatic. So there is no evidence that I would have to pay more for an manual if I were buying today.



I don't think so. An early NA1 coupe with higher miles is $35K and a mint R8 will be $80K to $100K. That would require an insane amount of mods to equal the difference. I paid $4500 for my seats and only $500 for the NSX-R door panels.

As far as resale value goes, I have no plans to sell. However everything I have done is easily reversible. If was forced to sell my car due to unforeseen circumstances I would likely put all the stock pieces back into the interior and then sell the NSX-R parts separately. The rare and discontinued NSX-R parts are likely to appreciate in value, even if used. You can already see this on Japanese auction sites. Discontinued parts such as the floor mats, suspension, and motor mounts are already fetching insane prices.

And I would rather have NSX-R seats than the stock R8 seats which are nothing special. The stock R8 seats are the same as the seats from the RS6 sedan. Almost nobody on r8talk.com appears to be overly impressed with them. Even the stock NSX seats are more comfortable. How much will it cost to buy the seats that come with the R8 GT? If I owned an R8 I would have to get those.

Likewise the R8 infotainment system is beginning to look long in the tooth. Not surprising since the design is 10 years old. While it's certainly better than the NSX's lame Bose cassette system, long term that's of little consequence. If I owned an R8 I'd likely be looking to update the infotainment system too, same as my NSX.

Actually that is not the truth regarding the manual. The R8 was released with only an automatic (r-tronic, everyone hated, single clutch, later used in aventador) the demand for a manual was so high they made it an option later.

Also worth mayb noting, the r8 came with 2 seat options, the flat ones (idk the real name) and the buckets. I have the buckets which are crazy soft leather and provide more than enuf support on a race track for me

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[95nsxtc]

I was able to step into my high mileage 1993 Coupe for $18.5K in November. I am not complaining...I just get tired of cars no matter how cool they are after a couple years. The NSX was a deal that I couldn't pass up and I love it, but it isn't the dream car of mine. My brother though...that's a different story lol.

Plans for my NSX are to improve the performance side of brakes, suspension, and interior/exterior wear and tear. I have no desire to boost the performance in any terms of FI (especially after blowing multiple engines) for the NSX.

The R8 interests me in the fact that I believe it is the way I thought the NSX would go. Also, a gated shifter mated to a mid-engine V8 is awesome.

Im not positive of this bc i havent taken the time to look but i think the R8 is the only manual, mid engine, awd v8 car in existance.

If that holds any value to you ha

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[fastaussie]

Unlike the NSX the majority of original R8 buyers actually wanted an automatic! While I am sure there are enthusiasts who will pay extra for a manual, there were simply too many manuals made for it to ever be considered rare. Thus the R8 manual will probably never have the same level of demand as something like an F430 manual.

everyone wants a paddle shift automatic these days, that's why it's now the only transmission available in virtually all Supercars.

The current asking prices for used R8s on autotrader.com confirm what I'm saying.

there is no evidence that I would have to pay more for an manual if I were buying today.

you'd have to compare the prices of manual R8's from a few years ago to now, not auto's versus manuals from present day...

 

[AnywhereInTX]

You're only a few years behind. About 6 to 8 I think.

I just got extremely lucky. It is a high mileage car, but service records are there and a major service done at SOS in mid-2014 put me at ease with purchasing my NSX. Though the exterior and interior are a little rough, it's nice owning a driver quality car that I can afford to fix up. The seller listed the car for more, but he was put at ease knowing it was going to someone who would appreciate the car and take it to where it needed to be. Also helps it was for sale here in Hawaii and everybody was afraid to pay for a ticket out here to check it out.

Im not positive of this bc i havent taken the time to look but i think the R8 is the only manual, mid engine, awd v8 car in existance.

If that holds any value to you ha

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I am in envy of your car list. Though I do like the V10 performance in the R8, I am not impressed with the maintenance costs on the Lambo V10. When the R8 came out and I saw those blades, I fell in love and hope to one day have one. Between it and a 911 GT3...the R8 seems more attainable as they are not being held as close as the GT3's.

When I was spending time on the track, I was passed many times by exotics and very few made a huge impression on me besides saying in my head "That's cool." But I still remember to this day a guy had his R8 V8 out there and was the worst driver (in terms of braking too early, horrible racing lines, and overall bad track ettiquette). However, despite all his fallacies I couldn't keep up with him despite having more power and experience. That car was wicked fast on the track and it will stick in my head for a while until I get one.
y,

 

[95nsxtc]

I just got extremely lucky. It is a high mileage car, but service records are there and a major service done at SOS in mid-2014 put me at ease with purchasing my NSX. Though the exterior and interior are a little rough, it's nice owning a driver quality car that I can afford to fix up. The seller listed the car for more, but he was put at ease knowing it was going to someone who would appreciate the car and take it to where it needed to be. Also helps it was for sale here in Hawaii and everybody was afraid to pay for a ticket out here to check it out.



I am in envy of your car list. Though I do like the V10 performance in the R8, I am not impressed with the maintenance costs on the Lambo V10. When the R8 came out and I saw those blades, I fell in love and hope to one day have one. Between it and a 911 GT3...the R8 seems more attainable as they are not being held as close as the GT3's.

When I was spending time on the track, I was passed many times by exotics and very few made a huge impression on me besides saying in my head "That's cool." But I still remember to this day a guy had his R8 V8 out there and was the worst driver (in terms of braking too early, horrible racing lines, and overall bad track ettiquette). However, despite all his fallacies I couldn't keep up with him despite having more power and experience. That car was wicked fast on the track and it will stick in my head for a while until I get one.
y,

Thank you very much! I appreciate that, just been lucky

And yes the v10 maintenance does sky rocket compared to the v8. However i was lucky to get the APR car which has more power than the v10s. I also confirmed this today again by going to test drive a v10 tt and my car was easily quicker thru the lower gears, the 850 hp ripped by later tho. Also idk how tru this is but one of the guys who worked for audi always told me that the v8 is the faster of the 2 as a track car at the r8 driving academy. I forget which track they use, must be really curvy lol

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[fastaussie]

the V8 R8 is more balanced and neutral than the V10. also a fair bit lighter. but the V10 easily makes up on the straightaways anything it loses in the twisty bits.

all in all, they're very good cars. they won't let you get in any serious trouble...

 

[BB]

you'd have to compare the prices of manual R8's from a few years ago to now, not auto's versus manuals from present day...

Ideally yes, but I could not locate historical sales data anywhere. However I'm certain that used R8 prices are lower today than they were a couple years ago. I recall looking then and could not find any in good condition for less than $90,000. Today that amount has dropped to around $70,000. Even the original poster of this thread was considering the R8 due to the recent depreciation. Yet you claimed the price on these cars is rising, specifically the manuals. By saying this you implied the manuals were rising in price relative to the autos, suggesting I needed to look at a specific model of R8 in order to see these price increases. That's why I was showing that there is no obvious price difference between autos and manuals.

Does anyone here really believe the long term trend for 1st gen R8 prices is up from here? That seems very unlikely since it appears there's currently an oversupply of used ones for sale. If I wanted to buy one today I can be insistent on my preferred model, color, and transmission and quickly find many cars to choose from. Entirely the opposite of trying to buy a used NSX today.

And unlike the NSX, the 2nd gen R8 is an evolution of the original. Because of this the 1st gen R8 will never be as special and as rare as it could have been. Many 1st gen R8 owners will upgrade to the 2nd gen R8 since the car is similar enough to entice them-- i.e. it's a worthy upgrade as opposed to being an entirely different car. These upgraders will help ensure that there is a healthy supply of used 1st gen R8s for sale.

 

[B-E-A-S-T]

Ideally yes, but I could not locate historical sales data anywhere. However I'm certain that used R8 prices are lower today than they were a couple years ago. I recall looking then and could not find any in good condition for less than $90,000. Today that amount has dropped to around $70,000. Even the original poster of this thread was considering the R8 due to the recent depreciation. Yet you claimed the price on these cars is rising, specifically the manuals. By saying this you implied the manuals were rising in price relative to the autos, suggesting I needed to look at a specific model of R8 in order to see these price increases. That's why I was showing that there is no obvious price difference between autos and manuals.

Does anyone here really believe the long term trend for 1st gen R8 prices is up from here? That seems very unlikely since it appears there's currently an oversupply of used ones for sale. If I wanted to buy one today I can be insistent on my preferred model, color, and transmission and quickly find many cars to choose from. Entirely the opposite of trying to buy a used NSX today.

And unlike the NSX, the 2nd gen R8 is an evolution of the original. Because of this the 1st gen R8 will never be as special and as rare as it could have been. Many 1st gen R8 owners will upgrade to the 2nd gen R8 since the car is similar enough to entice them-- i.e. it's a worthy upgrade as opposed to being an entirely different car. These upgraders will help ensure that there is a healthy supply of used 1st gen R8s for sale.

Meanwhile the price is too great for the average Gen1 NSX buyer to leap to the Gen2, regardless of it being an entirely different automotive experience.

People used to talk this way about the Nissan GT-R in terms of never depreciating but then a step function drop seems to have occurred.

A $20-25k 91-94 NSX Coupe is where the value lies...but everyone seems to be after this!

 

[docjohn]

A $20-25k 91-94 NSX Coupe is where the value lies...but everyone seems to be after this!

this is the crux of the matter.Those days are over.....

 

[B-E-A-S-T]

this is the crux of the matter.Those days are over.....

Well I think, if your going to buy a car with very very high miles you are clearly not doing it for meaningful investment appreciation, so the Salvage/Rebuilt titles cars will trade at that level OR you'll find someone that has done the mods you would have and pay an all-in value higher but the implied value of the base car will be the same...

 

[docjohn]

when destroyed cars on copart are commanding 15k and desperate buyers are willing to overlook "branded" titles for cars that look good..your pool of roadworthy coupes for 20-25k are quite shallow...

 

[B-E-A-S-T]

when destroyed cars on copart are commanding 15k and desperate buyers are willing to overlook "branded" titles for cars that look good..your pool of roadworthy coupes for 20-25k are quite shallow...

I agree, $20k is never happening anymore but I think $25k can happen...we'll see, this could all be a bit of a bubble as well. The amount of cars that have come out of the woodwork since this little price hike tells me that there are still lots of sellers at various price points, spring is always a bad time to buy cars let's see what the fall brings...these cars have been around forever so the burning rush to acquire one makes no sense...

 

[docjohn]

It is interesting to see some real low mile beauties coming to market now....there is definitely some new nsx hype that has turned up the heat on gen 1....I don't see that changing for the next 2 years....seasonal pricing will still play a small role as it always does.

 

[B-E-A-S-T]

When the '08 R8's hit $50k in a couple of years there will be compression at the high end of the pricing range, then we'll see what happens to the low end...I suspect it will stay flat...

 

[BB]

2. Idk anyone who considers their R8 to have a numb feel.

"the steering feel is a little numb.... There's basically no feedback, either."
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/30/2010-audi-r8-5-2-fsi-v10-review/

"But then comes the slight disappointment of the steering... it is nothing like the feedback the Porsche can offer."
"The lack of feel is one thing – you can live with it"
http://www.motoring.com.au/audi-r8-v10-plus-2013-launch-review-33376/

"The steering, while hydraulic and nicely weighted, is a bit numb in terms of outright feel."
http://jalopnik.com/saying-goodbye-to-the-audi-r8-v10-plus-the-best-modern-1697415792

"compared to its competitors it isn’t as fun to do drive due to its numb steering feel."
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/audi/r8/2015/

"the R8's drawbacks include less steering feel"
http://www.edmunds.com/audi/r8/2008/st-100866765/review/

"the steering was numb"
"As far as the steering, it was precise. I just didn't get any feedback from the road."
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10383706

"I want steering feel. And I can tell you, there's not a lot of it. I can't really feel what I'm doing actually."
From this video....

 

[95nsxtc]

"the steering feel is a little numb.... There's basically no feedback, either."
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/30/2010-audi-r8-5-2-fsi-v10-review/

"But then comes the slight disappointment of the steering... it is nothing like the feedback the Porsche can offer."
"The lack of feel is one thing – you can live with it"
http://www.motoring.com.au/audi-r8-v10-plus-2013-launch-review-33376/

"The steering, while hydraulic and nicely weighted, is a bit numb in terms of outright feel."
http://jalopnik.com/saying-goodbye-to-the-audi-r8-v10-plus-the-best-modern-1697415792

"compared to its competitors it isn’t as fun to do drive due to its numb steering feel."
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/audi/r8/2015/

"the R8's drawbacks include less steering feel"
http://www.edmunds.com/audi/r8/2008/st-100866765/review/

"the steering was numb"
"As far as the steering, it was precise. I just didn't get any feedback from the road."
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10383706

"I want steering feel. And I can tell you, there's not a lot of it. I can't really feel what I'm doing actually."
From this video....

Let me help you out as you apparently like beating dead horses, if you want something the people you keep quoting consider a direct steering feel, go get an alfa 4c and tramline all over the place. Hell yea the R8 is numb compared to that type of stuff bc its actually nice to drive and not a trip down anxiety road, but you kno what...

The NSX has a worse/number steering feel than the R8... there, i said it, smite me o nsx gods, but its tru

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[docjohn]

I SMITE YOU......:biggrin:

 

[BB]

The NSX has a worse/number steering feel than the R8... there, i said it, smite me o nsx gods, but its tru

Absurd. You're asking us to believe that an all wheel drive car with power steering (from a brand that is renowned for its numb steering) provides more feedback than a rear wheel drive car with manual steering. Additionally half the reviews for the R8 mention this lack of feedback, yet none of the early NSX reviews ever say something similar.

How can you possibly explain this discrepancy? Last time you attempted to explain it by saying the reviewer was an idiot, but now we see there are dozens of reviewers saying the same thing! If we were to believe that the reviewers were comparing the R8 to something like the Alfa 4C as you suggest, then the earliest NSX reviewers must have been comparing the NSX's steering feedback to a 1980's vintage Cadillac. That might explain why they never felt the need to point out the NSX's otherwise obvious steering feedback deficiency.

Perhaps you are comparing the R8's steering to an NSX-T with power steering (instead of a coupe with manual steering). In terms of pure sports car the NSX-T is a compromised design.

Another possibility is that the R8 steering is so good in most aspects that you overlook the lack of feedback. Even the reviews that mention this lack of feedback will often praise the car's steering in all other areas-- precision, weighting, accuracy. The BMW forum thread I linked to discusses this issue.

 

[B-E-A-S-T]

This article talking about chassis flexing and squeaking...I am already convinced a coupe is the way to go for me but this furthers the feeling, they picked it over the Alpha 4C...wonder if anyone did a comparison with a Lotus Evora? http://www.autoguide.com/car-comparisons/2015-alfa-romeo-4c-vs-2005-acura-nsx



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[jwmelvin]

This article talking about chassis flexing and squeaking...I am already convinced a coupe is the way to go for me but this furthers the feeling, they picked it over the Alpha 4C

That article is funny. My brother bought a 4C instead of an NSX because he wanted something nicer than an Exige (his former fun car) and didn't want the hassle of maintaining an older car. I've driven the 4C couple of times and the chassis rigidity is staggering; it really seems to act as a rigid body with a very tight suspension. My NSX (10k/8k springs) felt like it was made of rubber when I returned to it. While a coupe must be an improvement, it seems undeniable that modern chassis have come a long way, especially those that are carbon monocoques.

 

[B-E-A-S-T]

That article is funny. My brother bought a 4C instead of an NSX because he wanted something nicer than an Exige (his former fun car) and didn't want the hassle of maintaining an older car. I've driven the 4C couple of times and the chassis rigidity is staggering; it really seems to act as a rigid body with a very tight suspension. My NSX (10k/8k springs) felt like it was made of rubber when I returned to it. While a coupe must be an improvement, it seems undeniable that modern chassis have come a long way, especially those that are carbon monocoques.

"The chassis in my car squeaked over bumps", "For all the talk about how hard Honda worked to stiffen the chassis, it also feels surprisingly soft over cracked pavement"

You are telling me that even if you have a coupe you would be in no meaningful better position?

 

[jwmelvin]

You are telling me that even if you have a coupe you would be in no meaningful better position?

I can't speak to the difference between an NSX coupe and targa but I am willing to bet that even the coupe pales in comparison to a modern carbon chassis. There aren't many of those, however.

 

[s14_tat]

I have driven targas and the targa flexs and I can feel it flex and hear it creek just by going into a driveway in a angle. My coupe never does that. I have never driven a more modern machine so I cannot comment. But to those that states you can't feel a difference in a couple and targa in day to day driving, I beg to differ. I was actually surprised by how noticible it was.

 

[B-E-A-S-T]

I can't speak to the difference between an NSX coupe and targa but I am willing to bet that even the coupe pales in comparison to a modern carbon chassis. There aren't many of those, however.

Okay fair point, remove carbon tub chassis cars from comparison but if you look at the Lotus Evora and Audi R8 Coupe they are both aluminum, so time notwithstanding from a materials standpoint apples to apples...I would love to hear from someone that has driven those two vehicles and a NSX coupe and provide us with thoughts...