reviews are out

fastaussie said:
...once again a tester mentioned that the car was better to drive in automatic mode than manually with the paddles. that's been said a few different times now, and i find that a very peculiar thing to say about a Supercar... :confused:
Click to expand...

I've no experience driving any supercar (yet!), but as an electronics and computing engineer, it makes real sense to me that a car with this level of tech is going to be damn good at predicting the optimum change points. Perhaps a professional driver might have the refined intuitive senses that can out-perform the computers to gain those extra tenths that can win a race, but I'm betting for most amateurs the car is going to do just fine on it's own. Am I right?

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Yet another Aussie review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br5IAPjp6uU
 
fastaussie said:
surprisingly, once again a tester mentioned that the car was better to drive in automatic mode than manually with the paddles. that's been said a few different times now, and i find that a very peculiar thing to say about a Supercar... :confused:
Click to expand...

As an owner of a car with an eight-speed flappy-paddle gearbox, here's what I've found: With so many gears significantly more shifting is required than with a six-speed manual, and there's a distinct lack of feedback about what gear you're in despite a number being displayed on the dash. This makes it somewhat of a PITA to drive around town normally, and the car is really good on its own at picking times to shift in that situation.
 
Elistan said:
As an owner of a car with an eight-speed flappy-paddle gearbox, here's what I've found: With so many gears significantly more shifting is required than with a six-speed manual, and there's a distinct lack of feedback about what gear you're in despite a number being displayed on the dash. This makes it somewhat of a PITA to drive around town normally, and the car is really good on its own at picking times to shift in that situation.
Click to expand...

Thank you for chiming in to confirm what I've always felt myself, and suspected from other drivers, about paddle-shift "manual" cars. Yes, I have driven (never owned) a few paddle-shift exotics myself.

So, in other words, and for ALL practical purposes, it IS an automatic transmission car! Because, just like ANY automatic transmission vehicle ever made, while you "could" manually shift it through each gear (D1, D2, D3 and D), WHY on Earth would you?

R.I.P. manual transmission...


Meanwhile, for grins:

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?mai...6&products_id=12&zenid=k8Z1fX38jU9hOM9LgP,4F3

:D

.
 
kendallj said:
I've no experience driving any supercar (yet!), but as an electronics and computing engineer, it makes real sense to me that a car with this level of tech is going to be damn good at predicting the optimum change points. Perhaps a professional driver might have the refined intuitive senses that can out-perform the computers to gain those extra tenths that can win a race, but I'm betting for most amateurs the car is going to do just fine on it's own. Am I right?

You are absolutely correct that this transmission is smarter that most drivers.!
The brief drive I got around the track, with an Acura engineer, he said, that the transmission down shift, based on input from various sensors from the car. Therefore, it can down shift several gears when entering a corner, based the inputs without upsetting the balance, thereby allowing the driver to be in the correct gear to drive out of that corner, with maximum accelerate.
I believe, that most Folks think, that they have better control, when they shifts themselve, however, with these new breed of DCT, with lighting fast computers and logic that is built into the software it is just amazing.

Bram
Click to expand...
 
GBL1 said:
So, in other words, and for ALL practical purposes, it IS an automatic transmission car! Because, just like ANY automatic transmission vehicle ever made, while you "could" manually shift it through each gear (D1, D2, D3 and D), WHY on Earth would you?
Click to expand...
There are some big practical differences between modern DCTs and classic automatica transmissions, however. First, manually shifting through each gear on a classic auto was an exercise in frustration because they were so freaking slow. Slow to respond to inputs, and slow to actually execute the shifts. DCTs are quick and responsive - responsive enough to feel like the direct mechanical connection of a manual transmission. Also, DCTs while in a specific gear offer the same direct mechanical connection between engine and wheels as a manual transmission. So unlike previous automatic transmissions, DCTs offer the same immediate response as manuals.

I haven't tracked or autocrossed my 8spd, but I have driven it spiritedly - and in that situation I prefer to have the car in manual mode because it seems to do casual urban driving and highway driving well, but doesn't quite know what to do in 7/10ths driving when I'm on it at times and relaxed at times. Having super-quick response for requested gear changes is actually quite enjoyable.
 
They (manual tranny's) may be faster & all that "Kool-Aid jazz", but I will not go quietly into the night.

You can have my manual transmission car after you cut off my left leg, and when you pry the shift knob from my cold, dead hands. ;)

.
 
GBL1 said:
So, in other words, and for ALL practical purposes, it IS an automatic transmission car! Because, just like ANY automatic transmission vehicle ever made, while you "could" manually shift it through each gear (D1, D2, D3 and D), WHY on Earth would you?
Click to expand...

As far as I know the difference between a traditional clutch/manual transmission and a DCT is the DCT has two clutches to allow for preloading of the next gear for faster shifting up or down.
Instead of a pedal to work the clutch it's done with solenoids and solenoids change the gears.
Otherwise it's a direct connection from the engine through the clutch and transmission and on to the wheels.
No torque converters are used.

So we end up with a faster shifting clutch/gearbox set-up.
And yes you can choose to select each gear on your own or let a computer select gears for you.
Either way the shift itself will be faster than you can perform with a floor shifter and a clutch pedal.

I'm old enough to remember using "three on the tree" with sloppy linkages and changing gears was a busy job.
Seems to me modern performance cars are so much faster that it's much safer to have two hands on the wheel instead of one hand on the wheel, the other on a shifter, and a foot working a clutch.
I think this evolution of the clutch/gearbox drive system is one of the great innovations of late.
 
Bram said:
kendallj said:
I've no experience driving any supercar (yet!), but as an electronics and computing engineer, it makes real sense to me that a car with this level of tech is going to be damn good at predicting the optimum change points. Perhaps a professional driver might have the refined intuitive senses that can out-perform the computers to gain those extra tenths that can win a race, but I'm betting for most amateurs the car is going to do just fine on it's own. Am I right?

You are absolutely correct that this transmission is smarter that most drivers.!
The brief drive I got around the track, with an Acura engineer, he said, that the transmission down shift, based on input from various sensors from the car. Therefore, it can down shift several gears when entering a corner, based the inputs without upsetting the balance, thereby allowing the driver to be in the correct gear to drive out of that corner, with maximum accelerate.
I believe, that most Folks think, that they have better control, when they shifts themselve, however, with these new breed of DCT, with lighting fast computers and logic that is built into the software it is just amazing.

Bram
Click to expand...

JD Cross said:
As far as I know the difference between a traditional clutch/manual transmission and a DCT is the DCT has two clutches to allow for preloading of the next gear for faster shifting up or down.
Instead of a pedal to work the clutch it's done with solenoids and solenoids change the gears.
Otherwise it's a direct connection from the engine through the clutch and transmission and on to the wheels.
No torque converters are used.

So we end up with a faster shifting clutch/gearbox set-up.
And yes you can choose to select each gear on your own or let a computer select gears for you.
Either way the shift itself will be faster than you can perform with a floor shifter and a clutch pedal.

I'm old enough to remember using "three on the tree" with sloppy linkages and changing gears was a busy job.
Seems to me modern performance cars are so much faster that it's much safer to have two hands on the wheel instead of one hand on the wheel, the other on a shifter, and a foot working a clutch.
I think this evolution of the clutch/gearbox drive system is one of the great innovations of late.
Click to expand...


O.K., O.K., O.K...."maybe" I might be a bit quick to judge.


I'm going to need an NSX 2.0 (w/ the keys), a twisty track, and at least the better part of an afternoon to make a proper judgement on this topic.

:D
Click to expand...
 
GBL1 said:
They (manual tranny's) may be faster & all that "Kool-Aid jazz", but I will not go quietly into the night.

You can have my manual transmission car after you cut off my left leg, and when you pry the shift knob from my cold, dead hands. ;)

.
Click to expand...

Moderate power:weight + RWD + stick = fun

Lots of power:weight + AWD + fancy auto = fun

This has been my experience. I like stick as well but there is no way I would want one in my NSX or RS7.
 
I don't race competitively so I could care less about tenths of a second. I enjoy the pure driving fun of a manual gearbox.

I prefer to drive the car rather than have the car drive me. I hope to always keep a manual around as long as I can. I may eventually succumb to DCTs but it won't be a choice as much as a lack of options.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
While DCT shifts mighty fast, it also has 3 shafts w/ full gears. Its reported that the Porsche DCT weights ~265lbs and according to the current EVO article Adrian Newey on the AM-RB001, he stated many DCT are in the 150kg range and the weight is often at the end of the car. If a racing series where DCT is the norm for faster shifts =lower lap time and the purse is high, then it matters. The DCT in the new NSX and the McLaren are very large and heavy. Drove a 650 in speed, the computer is doing everything for you quick and fast and it feels less human. Drove a Lotus 7 with a hayabusa, the sequential box is much more involved and quick to shift as well. It was a blast...for us.

Here is the box we hope it will come to fruition.

http://autoweek.com/article/technol...ed-lightweight-clutchess-hybrids-transmission
 
While the debate between traditionalists who enjoy manually shifting a gearbox, heel and toeing and working a clutch pedal and those who enjoy a modern DCT type transmissions continues I think the major point being missed is safety.

We all understand the feeling of coming hot into a corner in an older manual NSX ( Miata, older 911 Porsche etc), doing all the heel and toeing etc, getting it just right, and coming out of the corner feeling like a racing God.

It's another when the car is a new Porsche Turbo, 488, R8 V10, Mclaren etc. any of which are significantly faster than an older NSX.
At the end of a straight the NSX is doing 90 mph while the 488 is doing 135 mph.
And at 90 mph in the approx 1 second the NSX driver is coping with deceleration forces with one hand on the wheel while the other appendages dance around heel/toe, clutch, gear shifter the driver is not in complete control of the car.

Now try doing all that at 135 mph.
In that 1 second the 488 has covered an additional 66 ft , deceleration forces are much higher and, assuming he had a traditional manual, still one hand on the wheel and busy with shifting activity.
To maintain the same amount of control as the NSX the 488 driver has to be much stronger physically and the price of a missed shift etc. is much higher.
In short you're asking the 488 driver to be a superman.

I think manufacturers of today's supercars realize a traditional manual set-up in a supercar is not safe in the hands of the average driver.
You need full control of today's supercars and that means two hands on the wheel and one foot on the floor to support the increased body weight from deceleration forces.
Couple that with quicker shift times from the automated clutch/shifter in a DCT and you have a safer faster car.
A win-win from my point of view.
 
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I agree with all that, but would add a couple of points:

I don't think DCT (or slushboxes for that matter) are inherently "safer," as such, but they allow average drivers to drive closer to the car's limit at a given level of safety. You can always use a longer braking zone and take your time with a manual--- it's just slower.

Another manifestation of safety/speed is mid turn upshifts. Manual drivers often need to go a gear higher into a turn to avoid hitting the redline before they are at the track-out of the turn (and facing a dangerous "too much going on" shift. Modern automatics are happy and safe shifting under significant lateral G-loads.

Finally, in defense of the humble slush box, a lot of the reason why today's automatics are faster (and safer) is due to (i) more ratios and (ii) smart software. Even if a 9-speed manual were mechanically feasible, if would be even easier to miss a shift (indulging a 5-->2 "money shift", for example) and harder to know what gear is optimal. Today's software is smart enough to keep you in the right gear all the time. This is even true, for example, with the humble "traditional" A8 auto in the Z06. In practice, on the track WOT upshifts are not appreciably faster or smoother in this car versus a "real" DCT. And speed of downshifts is rarely significant. The advantages are software and more gears to optimize around. (For street driving, however, real DCTs are miles ahead and a real joy versus old-school autos).
 
I agree that a DCT in itself is not safer.
But driving with two hands on the wheel is.
Can you imagine today's F1 driver trying to control his car with one hand on the wheel?

I guess a manufacturer could have installed a clutch pedal that operates an engage/disengage switch and a nice gated 6/7/9 slot shifter on the console that also activates electrical switches to make the gear changes.
Would still end up with one hand on the wheel, slower shifting and not as safe, but the traditionalist could say he's doing all the driving not the car :smile:
 
anyone can say whatever they want about DCT's. one fact is that they are faster and better in every way than a traditional old school manual gearbox. i personally love each, but i am not in denial as to which is far technically superior.

the other fact, and most important one, is when less than 2% (Ferrari) or less than 5% (Porsche) of your customers order a traditional manual gearbox in their car, it's really not worth their time to continue to produce such an offering...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm6HUoRBV-8&list=PLZ3sjBXcmvOzgMkFWLSYeQNXufM7HIho1

another creative review in German

this guy appears to have some real driving skills

he was having fun time on the road himself, then gave rides to a guy coming off a high end bicycle and then another guy coming off a Honda sport bike.

i really liked the slam the brakes part.

then he hit the track, did some laps with drifting and then raced a guy on a Honda sport bike
 
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