Repainting front bumper (not for the weak stomake :))

[LJSB]

Matching a red paint on plastic and metal is quiet a challenge.

Any dead panel matching is a challenge but metal to metal, plastic to plastic, plastic to metal it really is all the same.
If the substrates are adequately covered all you are seeing is the color.
The notion that rubber/plastic bumper covers and metal parts can't match because of the quality of the underlying material ie., fiberglass, steel, aluminum, plastic, is a popular myth.

Think of it like a blanket. If the blanket is such that you can't see through it, the color is the same regardless of what lies beneath.

If they use a color-spectrometer and compare the color it should have (I give them a fender with the right color for comparison) and the 'new' painting they do it shouldn't go wrong, no?

Possibly. The photo spectrometers available for the field in the collision paint industry are only about 75% accurate. It's a good tool to start with.
If you gave them an example of the adjacent color they have what need need if they are capable of seeing and properly identifying the deficiencies or over-saturations of the tints within.
This assumes that the brand of paint they are using provides the tints need to correctly move the color.
On your red, they should be OK. I'll be dollars to dough-nuts that if your fender on the right is the OEM color, it is tri-stage red and the non OEM fender color, the left one is two stage. Make sure they use the Tri-Stage method on your Formula Red car.

As for your avatar, the only way I get a woman that young to sit with me is if it is my daughter.:smile:

 

[goldNSX]

The notion that rubber/plastic bumper covers and metal parts can't match because of the quality of the underlying material ie., fiberglass, steel, aluminum, plastic, is a popular myth.

Think of it like a blanket. If the blanket is such that you can't see through it, the color is the same regardless of what lies beneath.

Agree with you. What I've heard and seen is that plastic produces gases that change the color over time.

 

[LJSB]

Agree with you. What I've heard and seen is that plastic produces gases that change the color over time.

If a painted material releases gas you'd have bubbles and peeling.

Color change over time is due to the photochemically reactive nature and quality of the paint or clear used.

 

[goldNSX]

If you gave them an example of the adjacent color they have what need need if they are capable of seeing and properly identifying the deficiencies or over-saturations of the tints within.

That's what I hope too. An interesting thing is that all NSX that I've seen in person which were repainted had an orange touch in the repainted parts. I wouldn't accept such differences. Seems like they just took the R77-color code and forget everything about painting.

This assumes that the brand of paint they are using provides the tints need to correctly move the color.
On your red, they should be OK. I'll be dollars to dough-nuts that if your fender on the right is the OEM color, it is tri-stage red and the non OEM fender color, the left one is two stage. Make sure they use the Tri-Stage method on your Formula Red car.

You'll win the bet. It's three-stage-red. Anybody knows what kind of red was used in the middle clearcoat? Does this explain the orangish difference I saw on every repainted red NSX.

I'll give them my right fender which is OEM color as an color-example. If the compare the colors in Neon- and Sunlight every difference should be found out, no?
Actually, how does a painter match the color? He doesn't paint the entire part first. He only paints a small area, compare them, change the nuances in the mixing-computer, paints again until the color matches. How many steps are needed usually?

As for your avatar, the only way I get a woman that young to sit with me is if it is my daughter.:smile:

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

Any dead panel matching is a challenge but metal to metal, plastic to plastic, plastic to metal it really is all the same.
If the substrates are adequately covered all you are seeing is the color.
The notion that rubber/plastic bumper covers and metal parts can't match because of the quality of the underlying material ie., fiberglass, steel, aluminum, plastic, is a popular myth.

Think of it like a blanket. If the blanket is such that you can't see through it, the color is the same regardless of what lies beneath.

I absolutely agree, however a large percentage of the NEW cars i see here have huge discoloration in the different underlying materials, specialy on the silver and the red ones, its very obvious. So, you can paint it the same color, but how do you prevent it to discolor over time.

About 3 or 4 weeks ago i looked at a new F430 at the dealership, it was black.... i swore it was painted in 2 colors, i realy did. Why cant they get it right, its a 200.000 euro car.

 

[goldNSX]

About 3 or 4 weeks ago i looked at a new F430 at the dealership, it was black.... i swore it was painted in 2 colors, i realy did. Why cant they get it right, its a 200.000 euro car.

Ferrari's paint finish of the earlier modells (till the 355) was not the best, but not as worse as Porsche.

 

[LJSB]

The problem is that many parts on a car, like the bumpers, vents, pillar garnishes on the NSX for example, are painted at different times and places at the factory than the rest of the car.

The reasons why bumpers and other painted parts don't match from the factory are any one or, any number of the following combined.

Different color lots.
Painted at a different time and/or location.
Different clear.
Different base
Different color substrate.
Different application and/or curing temp.
Different application methods or different technician.
Different mechanical set up: pressure, air/material volume, distance to panel etc..
Number of coats or depth of coverage.
Different reducers.


I'm sure I'll think of some more later but you get the point.

The different parts can be painted so that they match. The trade off is the changes they would have to make in their manufacturing/assembly process might be cost prohibited to do so.

They know that for most people the slight variation on color does not stop the sale.

Here in the field it is a daunting task to come up with a refinish strategy because customers often demand and expect a product that exceeds what the factory delivered.

IMO I have not seen any Ferrari that has a finish on it that equals the NSX finish, especially the NSX's built in the 90's.

I am always surprised that on a Enzo you can see the paint sinking into the carbon fiber pieces looking like little red waffle sections.
If I had the money to buy a Enzo that wouldn't stop me.

Gotta go. Dinners ready and I haven't had macaroni all year.

 

[goldNSX]

Gotta go. Dinners ready and I haven't had macaroni all year.

The year just begun.

 

[MikeW]

...It's three-stage-red. Anybody knows what kind of red was used in the middle clearcoat?

:smile:

 

[goldNSX]

:smile:

So it's the same color mixed with the clear coat? But how much means small amount?

 

[MikeW]

So it's the same color mixed with the clear coat? But how much means small amount?

I am sure it's the same color otherwise the color would be mentioned.
I guess this will have an effect to obfuscate the colors appearence.

A small amount..., if you would ask my ex it would be more than three-quarters...:tongue:

I have no idea. I think this should be determined empirical to match the shade of the other parts.

Regards Michael :biggrin:

 

[goldNSX]

So if the color in the clear-coat is the same there's no big deal to match the color, right? The appearance will be touched by the amount of color in the clear-coat, right?
Again, as I have to explain the painting stages to my painter in detail, what coates are used: 1. color 2. colored clear-coat 3. clearcoat OR 1. color 2. colored clear-coat?

What to fuss about the color matching process! Best I can do is to strip the hole painting to the aluminium of the body parts, just clear-coat them and have a little Mercedes-'Silber-Pfeil' as the naked fender looks so sexy. :tongue:

 

[LJSB]

The mid or "top" coat is not the same color as the base mixed into some clear. That is not what the bulletin shows.

What this bulletin shows is that DuPont, ICI and PPG, had tri-stage formulas and the mid coats, if you carefully read the formula numbers, were different.

The mid-coat was not the base color mixed in with same type of clear as used in the final clear coats but a single tint in a clear colored binder/balancer mix.

This bulletin is over 10 years old and most of these "tri stage" formulas do not exist in their respective company's current color library. The original tri-coat formula has been converted by every paint company I have found into a base/clear formula. They have eliminated the old mid-coat formulas.
Even when I call their tech lines they come up blank. It's sounds silly but it's gone.

At my shop we still do it with the tri-stage. I make my own mid-coat from a formula of my own which uses a magenta colored tint in the mid-coat. If your shop has any experience and "know how" they can make one too as long as they have a in house mixing bank.

To my eye, it is absolutely necessary to include the mid coat to achieve the correct depth and, in particular, the side tone that the original color presents. In the past four years I've added some painters and at first they feel this mid coat is not needed and wanted to do the Formula Red in base/clear method. When I show them a paint sample done my way they always say "yeah" or "wow" and without hesitation concede that it is what the color needs to look correct and is the way.

It not something everyone sees or feels important otherwise the paint companies would have not have eliminated the mid coat formulas from their libraries. If you can see the difference you may not be satisfied with anything less. I'm not.

Gold, if they run into a wall PM me. Include the brand of paint they use
and I'll come up with something to get them on track. Bet they can figure it out themselves.

BTW, you have some cool older metal there Mike.:wink:

 

[goldNSX]

pbassjo, thanks very much for the explanation.

After reading this I think I've ruled out looking for an alternative to the BIG-$$$ professional I know. He was the guy who told me about the mid-layer so I think he's one of the few people here in Europe who know how to do it.

Why does this car has to be that complicated? Even a camaeleon color would be simpler.

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

Just a silly question, but since the UK only this year needs to use waterbased paints, how is it in the US?
The old type paint is not allowed here anymore for years.

 

[LJSB]

As far as I know only California has environmental laws requiring the use of water-based paints in automotive refinishing.

This mandated use of water base paints dos not include the clear coats.

 

[goldNSX]

Would you do something like this or is it too sporty?

 

[MikeW]

Would you do something like this or is it too sporty?

I would go for it, but not with this kind of perforated sheet.

Ask an anodizing company for meshed-metal electrodes made of titanium.
Those are commonly used in the chlor-alkali electrolysis. They are very rigid not too expensive and they don't just look like titanium :smile:

I guess it's exactly what you are looking for, with the decent shade of titanium.

Regards Michael

 

[goldNSX]

More of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
I broke a small piece while removing the side skirt.

Another problem is that the OEM doesn't fit 100%. Needs some work.

 

[goldNSX]

this fender is for sale. Another JPM new one too.

 

[OLDMNSX]

Would you do something like this or is it too sporty?

gold Take a look at what I did for additional protection for the radiator and condensor coils. I used what is called "Hardware Cloth" it has openings that are about 1/8 in. I cut it so that it fit under the radiator duct, just infront of the radiator bracket. Take a look at my pictures in the gallery.

Brad

 

[goldNSX]

Type-R stabilizer installed. Just have a look how tight it is.

Thanks, OLDMNSX. I've bought already a radiator shield but don't know if I should install it.

 

[goldNSX]

Can this be OEM quality? The fender definitly has some fitment issues and needs some work by a professional.

 

[elsilvan]

hey thomas

nice work. it's a good thing to have experienced people nearby. :wink:

as for the mesh (or grid? whats the english word?), a friend of mine uses to say: 'if I was air, I wouldn't want to pass meshes at all'... if you install one, consider something darker - the one on the pics looks somewhat cheap IMO.

btw. why did you change the fender? looks ok on the pic - just because of the color?!?

cheers. silvan

 

[goldNSX]

I've painted the mesh black. It's an aluminium mesh. I only use the mesh on the lower half of the bumper. There should be enough drain through the upper not-meshed half. I'll have an eye on the air flow capabilites. The Type-R-bar already reduced it by some amount. But the NSX cooling system is said to be a good one with reserves. I don't track of vmax her so there are no problems expected I think.

hey thomas

nice work. it's a good thing to have experienced people nearby. :wink:

as for the mesh (or grid? whats the english word?), a friend of mine uses to say: 'if I was air, I wouldn't want to pass meshes at all'... if you install one, consider something darker - the one on the pics looks somewhat cheap IMO.

btw. why did you change the fender? looks ok on the pic - just because of the color?!?

cheers. silvan