Prime responsibility re Vendors

[comquat1]

Lud, this shouldn't even be your problem. If the people who have been ripped off are so upset, why haven't they taken legal action against the vendor? I'm sure there are laws that protect the consumer that haven't been utilized. Finally, if people really want to take a proactive measure against a certian vendor, the best thing to do is to boycott those services offered to the public. No one has forced anyone to engage in business with any single vendor active on this site.

Look above at RSO 34's posts and you will see how hard is it for someone on the other side of the country much less in a different country to take legal action against Dali (or another vendor with similar geographical settings). With regards to boycotting, I think a number of Prime members already do that can see that what Dali is doing is morally suspect. But I see newer and newer members buy from him without maybe doing a diligent background check on how good a vendor he is, and assuming that because he's advertising on Prime, it's ok to do buisiness with him and he'll take care of you. We can't send a message to every person who comes on this website looking for legitimate vendors to warn them about the bad ones and recommend the good ones.

Also, Lud makes a good point, what is the NSXCA doing to help us out with regards to the complaints lobbied against Dali and still showing some level of support of him as a vendor at NSXPO by allowing his t-shirts to be given away. Hearing this, because it's news to me, makes me see this is more than a "what's being done on prime" thing to how can the NSXCA help members too.

 

[DocL]

Look above at RSO 34's posts and you will see how hard is it for someone on the other side of the country much less in a different country to take legal action against Dali (or another vendor with similar geographical settings).

If a business is not geographically convenient (i.e. different continent) and there is no public address listed for such a company, I don't care who they are associated with, I would not give them one penny of mine. Period!

With regards to boycotting, I think a number of Prime members already do that can see that what Dali is doing is morally suspect. But I see newer and newer members buy from him without maybe doing a diligent background check on how good a vendor he is, and assuming that because he's advertising on Prime, it's ok to do buisiness with him and he'll take care of you. We can't send a message to every person who comes on this website looking for legitimate vendors to warn them about the bad ones and recommend the good ones.

Whenever I purchase a product by sending the funds and then waiting for the delivery, if I haven't received the goods within ten business days I report it to my credit card company or the USPS. A few years ago I sent a check to another NSX Prime member for a part, when I didn't receive it and after numerous attempts to contact him, I filed a fraud complaint with the USPS. I can't tell you how quickly that person responded to me when they got the notification from the postal service that they were being investigated for mail fraud. I just wonder why people don't use the resources that are available to them.

Also, Lud makes a good point, what is the NSXCA doing to help us out with regards to the complaints lobbied against Dali and still showing some level of support of him as a vendor at NSXPO by allowing his t-shirts to be given away. Hearing this, because it's news to me, makes me see this is more than a "what's being done on prime" thing to how can the NSXCA help members too.

I was told by Lud that there was no connection between NSX Prime and the NSXCA and that both entities do not have the power to regulate each other for better or worse. The NSXCA does not support NSX Prime and vice-versa, so why would one entity want to get involved with the other if the situation has no direct impact on the business operations of the NSXCA or NSX Prime.

Unfortunately it is hard to prevent fraud from taking place, especially on the internet. But what we can do as a community is to boycott those who rip us off. Whether or not someone decides to cross the boycott line, well, that is a risk that they can take. I don't like to gamble, therefore I only do business with companies with a relatively stellar business history.

 

[Briank]

I buy and sell on prime all the time and with good communications transactions turn out fine. I do get fly by night offers and they are usually easy to spot. Anyone deal with Blue Bird (-2). People with low post counts and no or negative trader ratings are always suspect of being trolls and scammers. I and others have been in transactions that were not completed where the buyer and seller agree on a deal /price and then the seller/buyer just drops out of sight. It's just an annoying part of doing business here.

I could not do the business I do without NSXprime and I recognize that by donating to NSXprime every month. I think LUD does a great job providing this venue for NSX owners. Also the community of users here are 2nd to none which is a major part of why problems here are few.

The trader rating system works for me and my rating is unblemished up to this point. I work hard to keep it that way but I also buy and sell on EBay and have a gotten a couple of negatives so I don't expect to have no negatives here on prime.

Getting back to the title of this thread; Re: Prime responsibility re Vendors.
Considering there is no cost to use this site I don't expect it to take much responsibility for what vendors, buyers or sellers do good or bad. That being said LUD does watch over what's going on and is interested and does take steps to ban people who are not who they say they are or are up to no good.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[queenlives]

As I have asked several times now, what constitutes "enough complaints"? Everyone says "when enough complaints are filed" but nobody is stepping up to say what that means, yet they seem to expect me to take it on myself to do so.

i believe several of us have suggested probation/suspension when a vendor is accused of taking $'s, not delivering product and then refusing to acknowledge / respond to the customer contact efforts. perhaps we weren't being clear enough: one accusation of this would seem to some/many a reasonable number for you/moderator to contact the vendor and request their feedback; no response to you, suspension.

fwiw, i believe the provider/controller of the site/marketplace is entitled/owns the responsiblity of maintaining good behavior throughout the site. re prime, you've banned members and killed threads when you felt it appropriate; accusations of outright ripping off people should be treated to at least the same extent.

fwiw2, i think the ideas of stickies and vendor complaint forum are an improvement over the current system.

whatever you decide, naturally, will be how things are handled - it's **your site** and you are entitled to do as you wish.

good luck with whatever you decide, remember: no good deed goes upunished

 

[TyraNSX]

I never meant that the small time guys get more slack, simply that their sponsorship fees would be much lower than the big guys. Queenlives has a good point about the # that triggers an action. Maybe 3 unresolved bad deals or ripoffs in any 4 month period triggers suspension a 180 day suspension . 2 suspensions in any 24 month period & permanently banned. I'm just throwing out some #s. The problem becomes who keeps track of all the good & bad deals or just rely on complaint posts? Maybe a sticky in the vendor forum or a standing poll is easier. Everytime you buy or sell something leave feedback & it's always on top in the sticky. I'm out of ideas.

 

[whiteNSXs]

Dali pretty much conducts all his deals through the use of Prime. Everytime Dali gets some attention, it is always that Mark Johnson owes someone's money or parts and he deals with these with his usual lack of response. If Mark does not answer to all his victims, he certainly has to answer to Lud. I once bought from a vender advertized on Panorama magazine. That vendor stiffed me $95 and did not send the parts. I called Panorama and they spoke to that jerk and I got my money back next day. I understand that Lud has no legal responsibility to keep problematic vendor out of the site, but I think by continuing to allow Mark to conduct business on Prime, there is an implied approval. Certainly Lud has better way to spend his time than resolving disputes among traders. But I think when a certain vendor has been repeatedly accused of stiffing Prime members, fortunately so far only a handful of vendors, I think it would be appropriate for Lud to ask Mark to answer to these allegations at least to Lud before he can post things for sale again. I would think Lud would call me if I stiff a hundred people's money for 100 HID kits and asks me what I am up to. Hey, I bet I would get a hundred buyers tomorrow if I make a blow out sale of $250 a kit tomorrow. Similarly, if a scam artist post a car for sale on Prime, and a few member smell a rat, I am sure Lud would delete that post.
Steve

 

[RSO 34]

Bob I respect your opinion, but this brings up another point. At NSXPO events, the NSXCA has for years given Dali Racing a vendor booth when requested and distributed the free Dali Racing T-shirts you mention to participants. Last year, when you were on the NSXPO committee and heavily involved in making NSXPO happen (for which I thank you again), Mark did not attend so there was no vendor booth, but free Dali Racing T-shirts were offered to all participants as usual.

So the club is actively promoting Dali at the NSXPO events, including last year when you were part of the group of people who made NSXPO happen. Am I being held to a different standard? It feels that way.

As I mentioned, I am expressing my personal opinion on the topic right now. And, yes, I was a member of the NSXPO committee as well as being an elected officer of the NSXCA but any opinions I express here are my own and I do not speak for those other entities when I voice my opinion. It would be inappropriate for me to address those other matters on this forum but I can appreciate your point. With the NSXCA and Prime being totally separate entities, I necessarily need to limit my comments to the topic raised herein as a result of my obligations and responsibilities as a Board member.

 

[RSO 34]

If a business is not geographically convenient (i.e. different continent) and there is no public address listed for such a company, I don't care who they are associated with, I would not give them one penny of mine. Period!

For me, 20-20 hindsight may be enlightenting from a philosophical perspective but I still fell "victim" despite having a sophisticated legal and business background simply because I was new to Prime and the NSX community at the time and relied upon recommendations about from whom I should order. At the time, I had no hesitation to place a $1200 order and pay up front because of the advice of many, several of whom to this day recommend Dali highly regardless of the ever-increasing vocality of dissatisfied customers. My concern is that there are other "newbies" each day who could have a similar problem just as easily because I still cannot believe that I allowed myself to "let my guard down" and go against my own business common sense.

 

[RSO 34]

As I have asked several times now, what constitutes "enough complaints"?

Once again, this is just my opinion but I would think the following score would constitute "enough complaints" considering that almost one-third of reporting members have had problematic transactions depite the seemingly high trader rating.

Feedback Score: 15
Positive Feedback: 53.6%
Members who left a positive: 28
Members who left a negative: 13 ​

 

[whiteNSXs]

Once again, this is just my opinion but I would think the following score would constitute "enough complaints" considering that almost one-third of reporting members have had problematic transactions depite the seemingly high trader rating.

Feedback Score: 15
Positive Feedback: 53.6%
Members who left a positive: 28
Members who left a negative: 13 ​

And to be a legit vendor, one should ALWAYS deliver the goods if one cares to accept money from the buyers. If one cannot deliver the good, one quick response with apology followed by refund will do fine. We are not talking about bad customer's services here but a vendor repeatedly stiffs people's hard earned cash. To me it is fraud. We always pride ourselves being better in Prime but we allow such inappropriate person to perpetuate these crime and unacceptable practice. Maybe, that is the reason he is still walking. Perhaps if he pulls these stunts on other "lowly" sites, he would have been confronted with some harsh street justice if he stiffs the wrong guy. Really, how many more times do we need to hear about his victims before we even believe there is a problem here? Lud bans people for their inappropriate behaviors whether it be language, content, and what not. Why is stiffing allowed? Interestingly I looked that his rating and realized that many of his victims are also supporters of Prime including even Hero and Champion. I don't know.
Steve

 

[Racerxjling]

I own my own business like many of you. Therefore, I am also aware that you cannot make everyone happy. HOWEVER, I am also one of the "Dali customers that never had a problem after multiple purchases". Because I am a very frequent visitor of Prime I am aware of the multiple "issues" w/ Dali. I am very reluctant to ever order from Dali. In my opinion, his major competitor SOS has SIGNIFICANTLY less complaints if any. In other words, there is inherently something wrong w/ Dali's business practices due to the high volume of complaints. I do believe Prime should consider demanding a public address/resolutions from Dali or be banned from Prime.

Jeff

 

[Shumdit]

I own my own business like many of you. Therefore, I am also aware that you cannot make everyone happy. HOWEVER, I am also one of the "Dali customers that never had a problem after multiple purchases". Because I am a very frequent visitor of Prime I am aware of the multiple "issues" w/ Dali. I am very reluctant to ever order from Dali. In my opinion, his major competitor SOS has SIGNIFICANTLY less complaints if any. In other words, there is inherently something wrong w/ Dali's business practices due to the high volume of complaints. I do believe Prime should consider demanding a public address/resolutions from Dali or be banned from Prime.

Jeff

Well said. I agree 100%

 

[EIFFEL]

I believe NSXPRIME should stay out of vendor disputes, It is a message board for owners and not a police entity. What happens to buyers are part of everyday business, not are business are catering to 100% customer satisfaction. But most successful business are striving for that goal.

 

[martin]

Hi

After reading almost everything in this thread I have a few comments.

Yes I think there should be a way for a newcomer (or anyone) to find out who is "legit" and who does not deliver.

Complaints filed? Filed where? As many has already pointed out is that members on this forum post their complaint on Prime when they are out of other options.

The thread are then "buried" on Prime and not easy accessable for others.

I agree that we should have sticky thread per vendor. In that thread links to complaints/successstories could be filed.

Maybe a seperate section under Buy/sell for these sticky threads. (Which does not have to be sticky if they have their own section)

Only links and no discussions on the sticky thread. Discussions are deleted by mods. Easier for anyone to get a full picture as you want by going throug the links.

I think the +/- works okey for "private" parties. People like WhiteNSX's (using you as an example since you have posted in this thread) could request a sticky thread in that section if he wants to.

For what to do about Dali? I think he should be banned and/or at least confronted by Lud in some way. What comes out of that, and what should be done before he is allowed back is question I do not have any answer too.

Regards

 

[nsxxtreme]

A suggestion would be to allow one vote for a particular vender per user name. This could be moved to the + or - at will. So it could be plus one day but minus the other, and the other way around also. I dont really need to know about the 30 products a single user bought from a vender. All I care is that the transactions went through for each user. And when the day comes that the vendor no longer delivers that user can choose not to endorse the vendor anymore.

Possibly put the month and year the person voting registered be each vote or just the year. That way it would help weed out possible fakes.

 

[comquat1]

Will someone just come up with a solution for Dali? This is getting rediculous. This whole thread is because of this company's actions towards it's customers. If it's not, will someone point out another company that has done business here that has such a track record to warrant this discussion as well? I just say ban Dali until Prime member's complaints are rectified. Then from there on out Dali can be here on a watched basis.

In the end, and I know I'm repeating, this is about Dali's poor business practices and nothing else. Let's just deal with Dali and not worry about "punishing" other vendors with hoops they must jump through to do business on this site. He made his bed, let him lie in it!

 

[comquat1]

I believe NSXPRIME should stay out of vendor disputes, It is a message board for owners and not a police entity. What happens to buyers are part of everyday business, not are business are catering to 100% customer satisfaction. But most successful business are striving for that goal.

If prime should stay out of disputes then why don't they just let this site become a free for all and not edit anything that posted? It makes good sense for Prime to run a "clean operation." To let this site get a reputation for "putting up with" a classless vendor does not reflect well on the the site. Other sites that allow vendors police the vendor forums as well. I know evolutionm.net did it with one guy who was badmouthing another vendor and was starting fights online when I was there with my evo). Why can't we call a spade a spade and deal with the problem, and I could be wrong, but there really is only one BIG problem at this site with regards to vendors and most (but not all evidently) know who it is.

 

[queenlives]

Will someone just come up with a solution for Dali?

i feel your pain.

having said that, it was only on the 28th of july that lud posted a thread in the vendor section asking for feedback on the subject. since that time, there have been a number of postings in this thread and, i'm betting, private emails to lud on the subject. likewise, i would be surprised if various parties weren't either being contacted or reading this thread to determine a next step for various parties and for prime.

have a virtual beer on me and wait a bit to see how prime evolves.

best,
hal

 

[Da Hapa]

Just some thoughts guys/gals.

Lud is already doing a tremendous amount of work to provide us with this forum for us to enjoy. While it might seem like an easy task to ask him to do more, keep that in mind.

How can he reasonably be asked to filter through complaints and decide what is right and what is wrong? Moreover, a preponderance of complaints can not be enough (in and of itself) for him to act because that allows for the potential of a "smear campaign" to improperly affect someone's business.

I've never bought from Dali but having experienced some less than scrupulous internet vendors in my life, I feel for those of you who claim to have been burned. But... you can't hold Lud responsible.

I think an adjustment to the trader rating system that allows separate pluses and minuses to be a good idea. I also think adding an area where we can discuss vendor disputes is a good idea but one with a potential for serious problems.

 

[queenlives]

Just some thoughts guys/gals.

Lud is already doing a tremendous amount of work to provide us with this forum for us to enjoy. While it might seem like an easy task to ask him to do more, keep that in mind.

How can he reasonably be asked to filter through complaints and decide what is right and what is wrong? Moreover, a preponderance of complaints can not be enough (in and of itself) for him to act because that allows for the potential of a "smear campaign" to improperly affect someone's business.

I've never bought from Dali but having experienced some less than scrupulous internet vendors in my life, I feel for those of you who claim to have been burned. But... you can't hold Lud responsible.

I think an adjustment to the trader rating system that allows separate pluses and minuses to be a good idea. I also think adding an area where we can discuss vendor disputes is a good idea but one with a potential for serious problems.

i don't believe there is a single member who would disagree with opening sentence. as for the 2nd sentence, there's ample evidence that banning an existing user is relatively easy. since this is an approved-member site, filtering for new membership/bogus user priveleges should be relatively easy, too.

gosh, where to begin (again):
he does that wrt other discussion threads; common sense says this could/should apply to multiple allegations of very bad business practices ("took my $'s, won't respond to my contact efforts and won't return my $'s"). btw, there have been many posts to this same effect in this thread so my regurgitating them again is really getting boring.

are you saying you don't want to run the risk of affecting someone's business (only the segment that comes from the area they're conducting bad business practices in (PRIME), btw, but it's ok to continue on with the situation as-is?

i suggest we change the word from "responsible" - i used it when i began the thread and later wished i used "obligation". certainly an approved-members site has the obligation to act on an on-going saga like this, don't you think? for the lastest incident, note: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55205

finally, you don't think PRIME members repeatedly alleging these types of incidents is a serious problem? yikes!

hal
(who is heading out on vacation and will check in as i can)

 

[Da Hapa]

Hal -

I absolutely do agree that this is a serious situation. Don't misunderstand that.

However, I don't think Lud needs to be our police, our jury, and our executioner as well as the provider of this forum.

In this instance (Dali) I would certainly agree with you that you're hard pressed to find any evidence that this vendor is now doing more harm to the community than good and the continued lack of response and poor customer treatment is deplorable.

But... and here's the catch... this is a very slippery slope. It's like the guy saying he knows obscenity when he sees it. Where does Lud draw the line? What is his lithmus test? Starting down this kind of slippery slope could lead to even more problems than we have today.

Lud has to be careful here and I think we should all make sure we take that into consideration when we're pushing for reforms. I seriously doubt, and I'd be hard pressed to think any of you do, that Lud is deliberatly letting this go to screw us the members. He's letting Mark J. continue to behave poorly in the hopes that we will be able to police it ourselves.

 

[queenlives]

Hal -

I absolutely do agree that this is a serious situation. Don't misunderstand that.

However, I don't think Lud needs to be our police, our jury, and our executioner as well as the provider of this forum.

In this instance (Dali) I would certainly agree with you that you're hard pressed to find any evidence that this vendor is now doing more harm to the community than good and the continued lack of response and poor customer treatment is deplorable.

But... and here's the catch... this is a very slippery slope. It's like the guy saying he knows obscenity when he sees it. Where does Lud draw the line? What is his lithmus test? Starting down this kind of slippery slope could lead to even more problems than we have today.

Lud has to be careful here and I think we should all make sure we take that into consideration when we're pushing for reforms. I seriously doubt, and I'd be hard pressed to think any of you do, that Lud is deliberatly letting this go to screw us the members. He's letting Mark J. continue to behave poorly in the hopes that we will be able to police it ourselves.

***
gotcha... and thanks for the thoughts. i think this is a case of where reasonable people can agree to disagree.

clearly, i'm on the other side of the discussion: it's inviting abuse of members who naively (apparently) believe if a vendor advertises and/or posts on prime that s/he is a reputable source for parts. (for the record) i do believe people are responsible for their in/actions and should do searches, caveat emptor, etc; having said that, it's clear from the advertising, google searching, spiders, key words, etc, that prime is becoming more of a business (congrats to lud, btw, he has my respect for this) and since it's becoming more of a business, it needs to implement a form of standards designed to protect the least common denominator buying member.

as i said in another post, my sense is lud will reach some form of reasonable policy that will help protect member's and prime's excellent reputation.

off to tahoe
hal
btw, we're in agreement wrt lud and his intentions.

 

[Russ]

Point taken. This is not a slippery slope situation, however. There is a vast chasm between the systematic unscrupulous business practices of Mark Johnson and the rest of the community. In the rest of the community, we have one-off transactions here & there which have gone awry. Then we have Mark Johnson whose well-documented scorn for our community has caused obvious harm and deep rifts among us.

And well-documented it is. We have clear and convincing evidence from a large number of Prime members who are owed either parts or money by Mark Johnson. This is not an instance where an isolated disgruntled customer badmouths a vendor. No, it is a chorus of voices, each singing a similar song: Mark Johnson is a thief. He is dishonest. If you deal with Mark Johnson, there is a good possibility you will be ripped off.

Could a fine-lined set of rules be fashioned to ensnare the Mark Johnsons of the world without treading on the spirit of free and open discourse? With much thought and effort, perhaps. Or should we recognize this for what it is: an exceptional situation, an unfortunate anomaly, and deal with it as such? I argue it is the latter. I argue that Mark Johnson impugned the dignity of this site. I argue that he has proved, over and over again, that he deserves to be permanently banned from advertising on this site - either directly or through proxies.

 

[SNDSOUL]

He doesnt even like the site members. He talks bad of them regularly. Even on his site he calls us "Sheeple" and says the forum members " dont think much"!! In November of last year I forwarded an email, that MJ sent me, to Lud through PM in which MJ wrote, that he could care less about what anybody says on the forums b/c the only thing the forum is good for is making sales and his sales have doubled this year. His excuse for a "Bad Rap" on the forums is a rant about some lame joke. He dogdes every question of reliablity and accountability with the excuse that he is only one guy that cannot please everyone and his business is just his hobby and therefore we should cut him some slack. I personally think that is a load of garbage and that kind of excuse would never hold water in any other means of buying and selling goods except on the internet where our only method of recourse is boycotting said vendor. I think with an attitude like this and a record such as his, that there is no other course of action than to ban Dali from NSX prime and show him that this forum is good for more than just sales. We are the close knit community descibed on the home page for a reason. I would never let my friends get screwed and I am tired of seeing my NSX patrons get disserve by this individual and then go unpunished.

and yes MJ ripped me off too:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11720&page=3&pp=50&highlight=dali

 

[nsxxtreme]

I have seen all kinds of remarks regarding this vendor. While I haven't ordered anything from him. I have to say some of what I have read I dont always agree with the complainer.

I have heard a lot of people complaining about not getting there core charge for there clutch. When I by-passed all dealers and went to the manufacturer it took 7 months before I ever heard anything back. Even then they screwed a bunch of stuff up.

Not trying to endorse Dali but I know how impatient some people are. NSX owners seems to be more impatient then most. Although I don't agree with shady business practices either, and feel bad for some people that truly get the shaft.

I think what Lud is doing is a step in the right direction. Not just for one vendor but for all of them. Like I said i think someone should only be able to vote once with the option to retract the endorsment at a later date. The trader rating I dont think works well for vendors because you have to search for that user to find them. I would rather see a dealer page with feedback for the dealer, so the name actually fits the dealer.

Possibly also make it so a user has to have a certain amount of posts before they can vote. This would keep someone from registering with a bunch of different emails and voting a bunch of times for one vendor.

*see above for my other suggestions*