Ford has sold about 87,000 Mustangs year to date 2016 in North America so I don't think the NSX and Mustang are in the same category.
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Ford has sold about 87,000 Mustangs year to date 2016 in North America so I don't think the NSX and Mustang are in the same category.
That wasn't my question.
Sorry shouldn't have posted as I'm not familiar with the current Mustang line-up.
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American Honda tells its Acura dealers the NSX is coming back. It's gonna do this and this. It's gonna compete against this and this. It's gonna be great! You want to sell them?
Of course! Where do we sign up?
Whoa whoa whoa guys. This is not just a garden variety Honda. This is a bonafide supercar. Which has supercar service needs and client expectations.
Yeah we know. You said that about the last one back over 25 years ago and we got the job done and sold a lot of units.
Well that was then and this is now. We've determined that all of you are grossly under equipped to handle this new machine. If you want to be a dealer for this new car we'll need you to buy this new tire machine and this new alignment mach...
But we just bought a state of the art alignment machine only a few years ago.
Nope. That one isn't good enough. You will need this brand new one. Along with all this other equipment. Oh and you'll also need a $20,000 display center for your showroom. But don't worry. Everyone will want this car so much that you can recoup the cost for all this stuff in the first year with your market adjustments.
Well ok I guess *shells out $140k for equipment, tools, training, merchandise, and yes...furniture*
(half a year or so later)
Ummm hey everyone. You know that $50,000 alignment rack that we said was the only one that would work with the car? Well turns out the car doesn't actually fit on it. But don't worry, we'll send you retrofit parts so the car will fit properly.
So why couldn't we have just retrofitted our old one then?
Uhhhh. Ooo look something shiny! Bye!
Hopefully you all got a little chuckle out of that. But it really isn't that funny to the dealers. They were forced to buy so much unnecessary stuff, it's veiled extortion. So yeah, the dealers are getting a bit at odds with Honda's goals. "Greedy stealership with their markups" blah blah blah. Hopefully this little picture I just painted sheds a little light on why the dealers are trying to markup as much as possible so it doesn't take them a dozen cars deep just to even break even selling at sticker.
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On the other hand Honda is trying to reposition the Acura marque in North America and bringing the NSX back is the first step in that strategy.
So Honda invested millions in design costs, millions in a new engine/driveline, millions in testing, and millions in new factory costs.
A successful NSX launch benefits every single Acura dealer in goodwill and brand image far beyond any dealer upfront costs.
The only thing missing is an order file for the car.
And that order file has been frustrated by dealers wanting a short term gain at the expense of a long term increase in value of their franchises.
Does anyone think there won't be more Acura's coming along with advanced drive trains and technology?
A smart dealership principal doesn't look at the one-off margin he can make on a relatively scarce car.
He looks at his franchise moving upmarket into $150-200K plus cars en route to competing with other high-end marques.
And the dealership also expects Honda to continue to invest millions/billions in new models so the dealership can increase sales and margins.
I can only imagine how upset senior executives at Honda are with their short-sighted dealers messing up the beginning of a long term corporate plan.
A plan that will benefit Honda and of course their dealerships.
NSX's on eBay, NSX's flipped to a Chev dealer and other non-Acura dealers?
Meanwhile real customers, who ordered an NSX years ago, sit and watch the stupidity and the cheapening of the Acura and NSX marque.
A product launch that should become a case study in "how not to market a product" at better business schools across the land.
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Of course this new halo car will spawn some new advancements for the rest of the carlines. Matter of fact, you'll see that in about a year.
But let's talk about margins. Personally, I would love to take the Saturn and Scion dealer franchise model. Every Acura store everywhere just charges straight sticker. Nothing more, nothing less. I'd be just fine with that. But unless a ton of add ons (warranty, overglorified wax job, LoJack, etc) get sold with the deal, we go in the red with every new car deal. It's absurd how many people come in and refuse to pay one penny more than $500 under invoice and still think we're ripping them off. People seem to think that the sales associate, sales manager, F&I manager, detailer, receptionist, and all the other people associated with selling that car all work for minimum wage. The lights and A/C run for free and so on. "Oh you guys probably get some volume discount so my invoice price is probably way higher than what you really pay. Plus you guys still get like thousands from the 'holdback' thing." Uhhh no. It ain't like that. If it wasn't for pre owned vehicles and fixed operations (service and parts), no Acura dealer could stay in business. So now we finally get a car that's supposed be the cat's meow, exclusive, and all that other jazz. Do you seriously think that if you were the dealer principle, you wouldn't try to wring every bit of profit out of it you could? And why is this such an egregious thing that dealers are trying to get a MA?
How is this any different than any other flavor of the month gotta have it car? Every time there is a new Shelby Mustang, dealers ask (and get) $10-20k over. Twenty! Off a starting MSRP of $60k! Demand for the GT350 is starting to cool so you can probably get close to a sticker deal now, but when the GT500 comes out in a year, it will be massive profit taking time again. Or when the Viper first came out, there were stories of the car going for $100k over. And the thing was maybe only $60k on the sticker back then. Every new generation of Corvette, that first month or two everyone pays a healthy premium over sticker just to have it first on their block, even though the base Corvette will be far from anything exclusive and eventually they'll be everywhere.
It's the same story here with the NSX. They are getting while the getting is good. Fact is, it's still very new. You all here may think the 30 or so cars that you know about that are unsold means there's less demand. But 30 cars in "national inventory" really isn't a lot. Even for a car that expensive. I bet there's an awful lot more Ferrari 488s on the ground open to buy right now than 30 cars. Maybe even still some 458s too? So until there's a couple hundred unsold NSXs around, most dealers (whether they are new untitled cars at Acura stores or "used" ones that a third party dealer is trying to flip) will hold fast on their markup. They're counting on some filthy rich person just cruising by and seeing this new thing in the showroom and just has to have it, and doesn't care what it costs. It happens more often than one might expect. So a dealer is willing to tie up the capital and sit on a car for several months if he has to, in the hopes of a wild impatient fool just falling in their lap. If the car sits for longer than say half a year? Ok maybe time to start caving in the MA amount. But right now, not really much has been on the ground longer than 30 days. So while you all think we're greedy dealers and we're "ruining" Acura's good name, the profit taking shall continue easily into 2017. It's a crappy reality that you true enthusiasts who may have been waiting years, if not a whole decade, for the car have to sit by (and maybe even were bumped off a wait list because they refused to pay over sticker) and watch less worthy people get the car first because they are willing to be ripped off. This is not short sighted dealership operation. While you forum users are very much in tune to the happenings of the car and what cars are where and how much they cost, you are easily outnumbered by people who are so clueless they don't even know the NSX is even out yet. Or that the car is an Acura NSX...period. So yeah, you'll have to sit and wait for prices to stabilize...while we sit and wait and hope some football player just walks in and pays $300k without blinking an eye. He doesn't want to try to price shop another car at another dealer 500 miles away, he doesn't want to wait for the next one, he just wants this one right now and he'll pay whatever the add on sticker says to take it home right now. This is the way dealers have operated for many many years. But like I said, I'd think it'd be much better for everyone involved if every dealer just charged MSRP and held firm on everything. I like that world a lot better.
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Nice story and understandably frustrating for the dealers as long as the equipment of the dealer is up to date.
Was it really Acuras intention to serve every single dealer with the car? I think No. The so called 150k investment is just a means to restrict the no. of dealers (in the 2nd priority) and to guaranty a very high level of customer service to people having higher expectations than the average Acura buyer (1st priority).
A side effect of this is that part of the investment will have an effect and will be used on the other Acuras as well, raising the brands/dealers name in general. The tool xy it's not reserved for the one and only car, it can be used for others as well.
It should be understood/accepted that the official price of this car is nothing more than a benchmark price. With low supply (at the moment) dealers who got one ask for a markup. The dealers task is to use their time (wait) for the right buyer at the highest price. Totally ok. If an impatient guy is willing to pay a high markup, what's wrong with that? The US economy is capitalism, not socialism.
Of course it's frustrating for a buyer to wait for a car at MSRP and seeing cars at other dealers with markups. But nobody is forced to buy the thing. If you want it you have to play the game at the markets rules.I think you hit on the key points here. But I don't believe that it that it will
work the way Acura would like, in the sense I don't think making a dealer
pay $100k+ to get in the game will ensure that they provide good service.
These are car dealers and they don't change their spots just because
this is a supercar and they have a lot of skin in the game. If I were buying
a new NSX I would be amazed if I was treated well, i.e. without being
lied to or otherwise insulted at some point along the line as is routine
when I've been at dealerships.
It's not dishonorable to ask the price you want to get but it is toIt should be understood/accepted that the official price of this car is nothing more than a benchmark price. With low supply (at the moment) dealers who got one ask for a markup. The dealers task is to use their time (wait) for the right buyer at the highest price. Totally ok. If an impatient guy is willing to pay a high markup, what's wrong with that? The US economy is capitalism, not socialism.
bump a customer who had an agreement to buy the dealer's first unit.
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Nice story and understandably frustrating for the dealers as long as the equipment of the dealer is up to date.
Was it really Acuras intention to serve every single dealer with the car? I think No. The so called 150k investment is just a means to restrict the no. of dealers (in the 2nd priority) and to guaranty a very high level of customer service to people having higher expectations than the average Acura buyer (1st priority).
A side effect of this is that part of the investment will have an effect and will be used on the other Acuras as well, raising the brands/dealers name in general. The tool xy it's not reserved for the one and only car, it can be used for others as well.
It should be understood/accepted that the official price of this car is nothing more than a benchmark price. With low supply (at the moment) dealers who got one ask for a markup. The dealers task is to use their time (wait) for the right buyer at the highest price. Totally ok. If an impatient guy is willing to pay a high markup, what's wrong with that? The US economy is capitalism, not socialism.
Of course the new $50k alignment machine gets used on all the other cars. The kind of volume the NSX will be? A dealer would never pay for it in 100 years just doing NSX alignments. But the point is that there was no reason to buy a new machine. Most dealers are still aligning cars with a tape measure. I've seen plenty of really good technicians who can perfectly align a vehicle with a 20 year old machine However...the $20k display case with the tv in it? Really? Was that really necessary to sell a paperweight or a carbon fiber money clip? Seriously, you should see the "merchandise" they made us stock. It's all stuff that's just waiting to go in the latter of a P&L sheet. Or many of the NSX specific special tools? As rare as the car is, I don't forsee the need to R&R a lot of engines. Yet every NSX dealer now has thousands worth or tools and fixtures to do just that. American Honda could have simply kept a few sets in the local training centers and just loaned them out as needed to the dealers.
Ferrari does intentionally build short of demand in order to maintain their aura of exclusivity. The new CEO Sergio Marchionne wants to make as many as about 40% more cars to better meet demand, it'll be interesting to see how that affects demand and residual value for Ferraris going forward.
As far as how Ferrari is able to keep demand so high, it's pretty simple really. They've been building the brand for over 50 years, have always been in Formula 1, they've been the standard bearer in supercar style for decades, and they make emotionally appealing cars. Ferrari is one of the most valuable brands in the world and as such is a global status symbol for wealthy people. Ferrari's high levels of demand now, are largely the result of their actions in the last 2 or 3 decades.
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I saw a thread about that here and thought about posting in it but it's old and I have a feeling they would just want to tar and feather me for saying this in there.
Unless it is in writing that you are buying the first unit at MSRP, all your deposit (however long ago you put it down) entitles you to is first rights of refusal once they have a car to sell to a customer. This is why so many coverage units are unclaimed right now. Car was available to order, customer who was first on the list was told it's going to be XX over sticker, they were under the impression that they'd get a sticker deal since they have been waiting so long, nope not how the game of "new gotta have it cars" works so no deal, and they get bumped/passed up, and the dealer just keeps the car for themself and/or orders a spec that they hope will eventually sell to a walk in willing to pay their MA.
so true!
interesting reading if you have nothing to do
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...10-000-and-refusal-to-honor-agreement-at-MSRP
interesting reading if you have nothing to do
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...10-000-and-refusal-to-honor-agreement-at-MSRP
I agree with you that the agreement has to be specific.
And I agree that it is good practice to get it in writing,
although breaking a verbal agreement is also dishonorable.
fastaussie
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hard to say, i don't know their sales numbers or expected annual output? but McLaren has a lot of models that seem to be selling well overall. they may have some hanging on showroom floors, but they also didn't hype the shit out of their only exotic model either.
i think Nero can make that assumption, because not only himself, but another local has also made the same decision to drop their NSX. and as we know from these forums, so have many other prospective buyers. maybe it's the lack of exotic excitement, maybe it's bad brand management, maybe it's price gouging, maybe it's a several years-too-long wait, maybe it's the shitty paddle shifters?
there are a lot of excuses, but bottom line, the new NSX is not selling well. in some cases not at all...
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Fully agree with your fear. But it is the customers task to find a dealer which cares for his car most (positive thinking, you could also think the other way around). The 100k+ investment is mainly a means to exclude some of the (smaller) dealers. But as the tools for the car are in the shop it's more likely that your tires won't be changed with 50 years old crappy tools at least. And you get a 'personal tech' for the car who does all of the work. It won't ensure your car gets babied at every single dealer but Acura US can't do more here. It's the dealers business and responsability. If a dealer buys a ticket to sell the car he wants to see 'the show'. The first customers will have to pay off the investment of the dealer. The customer knows that if he visits their glass palaces he has to pay for it.
Like MasterNSXTech mentions there is absolute no sense in having tools everywhere to do seldom tasks (having 3 tools for engine R&R with a specialised national crew going to the dealer would be sufficient enough) but again: Acura US defines the rules for the dealers and Acura US gets paid for the tools. Doing that excludes some part of the dealers and makes the car more special. On the other hand: how many Acura dealers didn't jump on the running train? If I was a Acura dealer could I afford NOT selling the leader ship car of the brand? Acura US knows too that most of the dealers can't pass on the new car. Even a different way of thinking: does the new NSX have such a big impact on Acura sales overall? Let's assume you have a customer in the house for the new NSX but he's not convinced to buy it. What do you offer him? The next best car of the line is a Sedan or a SUV at 1/4 of the price. Not so at the Ferrari dealer where you can choose between three different models if you don't like the new 488. But in the end a Ferrari gets sold, regardless which. Having no real alternative in the glass palace puts a lot of pressure on the Acura dealers. The first two years will be the 'silly season' like we see now.
I guess that MasterNSXTech's hits the nail (#61). I didn't see an agreement so far but I guess that there wasn't a statement like: you get the car for $$$'$$$ as there were no prices released back then. Maybe a high proportion of the 'orphaned' cars are the result of customers backing out, not willing to pay the markup. The other part are dealers with fake buyers just to get an additional car to cope with the investments.
Of course, I would feel sad if a dealers turns me down and I might never go back there again. And the longterm 'costs' of doing so could be bigger for Acura than the markup they get get in the shortterm.
One addition as I've read McLaren: they are the best example to canibalise their cars. Every year a new model. McLaren sells as much as they can, they don't care about resale value (ok, they don't have to). They just maximize their revenues with their strategy. The owner takes the biggest hit due to not being able to sell his 'old' car for a reasonable price. Nothing wrong with that, a McLaren owner just has to be aware of the high depreciation.
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fastaussie
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Ferrari has got their shit sorted right, no question. Honda has definitely not.
perhaps Ferrari's greatest attribute is what you said in your second paragraph, "they make emotionally appealing cars"...
According to buyers on the McLaren owner's forum you could get 40-60k discounts off brand new 650S's as recently as this year. McLaren has moved a decent number of units but fact is that at any given time there are 570S's and 650S's sitting on the lot. If you're saying the existence of some dealer principal NSX's on lots is proof of failure, then McLaren is failed as a brand since all they sell is supercars.
People cancel orders of cars in this class all the time. There are people who custom ordered 570S's and got fed up with multiple of delays and went elsewhere. There are people who get tired of waiting on a Ferrari to come in, there are people who change their mind when their number comes up on a GT3RS. It's a bit presumptuous to look at a few anecdotal cancellations in one city and declare the sky the is falling. The car has only been in production for 2 months and very few cars have been delivered, no one can declare success or failure beyond a WAG at this point.
Recently was informed that my local Acura dealer principal loves to drive his new NSX......do I care?
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No it doesn't. I know of a few dealers that are bigger than others that passed on the NSX. "Just not worth the trouble" is what they say.
Exactly this. Who revives a legendary nameplate to try and stir up fond emotions of the original car, yet designs the car to completely ignore its namesake with no lineage other than the seed of the idea. A company who doesn't understand themselves much less the exotic car market. Severing the emotional connection we were looking for while exotics are hugely driven almost entirely on emotional appeal. I believe the upward trajectory of gen 1 values is firmly rooted in this failure as well- concours level MY05 are reaching $130k per Hagerty market reports which says there is competition from buyers able to buy both, that emotionally prefer the original. I thought I would have to wait a couple of years for the new car hype to die down and let this car be judged by the market in this way so I was a little surprised to discover this all happening so soon.
Could lose the deposit, but I highly doubt it. The dealer is still getting a product to sell while the customer is getting no product. It's unfortunate, but the inverse of a buyer buying a car off the lot that they didn't spec. I doubt the dealer could keep the deposit unless the agreement was in writing with those terms. But I'm no attorney-
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Depends on the state the dealer is in. In some states a "non refundable deposit" is illegal. So conceivably you could order a Nord Grey with no FIFs other than the polished interwoven wheels (eww) and then back out and st ok the dealer with a less than favorable spec to sell on the open market.
The thing about lineage is that if you took a supercar made in 1991 and compared it to the current incarnation of that car, you might find something so different that one could say it ignores it's namesake. The Ferrari 488 is much bigger, heavier, turbocharged, controlled by computers, has no manual tranny and is less raw than the 348 of 1991. The only things they have in common is the prancing horse and that they're V8's. If Ferrari hadn't updated the 348 for about 15 years, then followed that with the 488, there would be a bunch of people bitching in disgust. Hell, there are Ferrari owners bitching right now about the 488 and how the turbo engine sounds like ass and unfun compared to the 458.
So with the NSX it seems like it doesn't follow the lineage because it has been an eternity since the last one was conceived, there weren't intermediate iterations to provide a line of evolution to present. No intermediate fossils so to speak. But the NSX still represents Honda's concept for a livable sports car that incorporates the company's technology and thinking.
Now one can argue that the new NSX is not as compelling as the first one. For some people that is the truth. But that is not so much about lineage, it's about the end result. The thing a continuous lineage does is build and sustain a following over time so that there are loyal customers waiting to buy the new model every 5 years or so. That is something Honda has so far failed to understand with sports cars, they make something great then let it die on the vine. You can't build a passionate following by only throwing enthusiasts a bone once every 10-15 years.
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In the market of high volume cars like a Civic they produce the first batch loaded with options as demo cars. The buyer has the choice then:
1st: take one with him immediately but with options he wouldn't like to pay for, so he pays too much for what he actually wants.
2nd: custom order one but wait half a year.
In the high end market where buyers are so sensitive to ask for zero miles on the car it's an even higher restriction if you have to buy a car loaded with an option you dislike and missing an option you would like to have. Ok, this could be corrected by the Price but the dealer looses money then. Without a high demand and no compromising buyers of 'orphaned' cars the penalty of a potential buyer stepping out should be something like 20-30% as this is the depreciation rate in the first year of the car.
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