NSXPrime Vendor Subscription

[HIJACKER]

Lud,

the flat $500 seems unfair across the Prime Vendors spectrum.

$500 is a dime for a Vendor like SOS, that sells tens of thousands $$ here..

$500 is a fortune to a Vendor that sells like $20 items...

I think that everyone should contribute.

I think members/vendors should HAVE to contribute since they profit from the audience this forum provides...

... but i think it has to be well planned or:

- we will end up with 3 or 4 vendors selling about the same old things

- members like Hugabuga will stop to come up with inventive solutions and new parts, simply because they don't know if they will ever receive in profit what they paid as Prime Vendor Fee.


Although i understand your concearns, and being here only since 2005, and as the NSX will become more rare as time passes, i see all this new policies killing Prime and it will be one more dead Car forum in a not so long future.

Kills me to think of this :frown:

Nuno

This is why I presented a tiered approach, so that the costs can be decided among the vendor based on their income and how much exposure they want.

I would start the tier 1 around $50, $250 for tier 2, and $500 for tier 3. i dunno, I made these numbers up, but you should get the point. Re-read my earlier post.

 

[docjohn]

So does it comes down to cost or principle? or both

 

[RSO 34]

Lud,



- we will end up with 3 or 4 vendors selling about the same old things

- members like Hugabuga will stop to come up with inventive solutions and new parts, simply because they don't know if they will ever receive in profit what they paid as Prime Vendor Fee.


Although i understand your concearns, and being here only since 2005, and as the NSX will become more rare as time passes, i see all this new policies killing Prime and it will be one more dead Car forum in a not so long future.

Kills me to think of this :frown:

Nuno

What established vendors are selling $20 parts and not making enough to pay the fee? And I don't know hugabugas books but it seems to me that he is making enough to travel all over the world to do installs himself so I would think this little business is quite profitable.

As for this vendor requirement killing prime - you're kidding, right!? An amazingly alarmist statement not based in fact or logic. We are such a small part of the automotive world but prime has no competition. This is an interweb monopoly.

Requiring vendors to pay for the right to do business in the only forum that any NSx enthusiast turns to is appropriate. The reason nobody wants to go to fleabay or craigslist is because prime is the market for everything NSx.

If you want to buy or sell, you want to do it here. If you want to benefit from such a monopoly on a broader scale as a vendor, it's time to pay for the privilege.

 

[docjohn]

I agree with Bob.I don't have a dog in this fight,but From my perspective nothing in this country is getting cheaper....some of of us are being told do do more and recieve less:frown: This site being the place for nsx stuff has a running cost.If the owner of the site(who imho is very honest and not relying on the site to turn a profit) feels a tarif is needed from vendors...so be it.The more specific issue is amount.......For that we would have to rely on the site owner.

 

[NSX Prime]

I can only speak for myself. Like i said, i lost money on everything i offered so there was no profiting or getting a free ride. Most of it was things i made for myself and others ask me to make for them so i did. Can someone like sos pay $500 a year, sure but for someone like me it doesn't make sense.

Mike, you are right, it doesn't make sense to pay $500/year for the type and volume of deals you have done in the past. I searched all threads you have started in the Vendor section to see your history there. I found three threads where you were selling two different types of products: Threads in 2007 and 2009 for your LED lighting kits/conversions, and a thread in 2009 for lightweight hood / engine cover stays.

All three of those threads were pretty popular as people expressed interest and you sold stuff, then basically went inactive after about 3 months, to be occasionally revived by people who apparently found them via search and expressed interest. In that scenario under the current system I believe you could have done everything with two 3-month vendor subscriptions without even adjusting your schedule.

With more focused timing to maximize your return you could really run deals like that with a 1-month vendor subscription at $60/mo. Then you could just let your vendor status go inactive during the long periods between projects.

I'm sorry to hear you lost money on these projects as they look nice. I don't think the community can realistically depend on continued innovation from people willing to lose money on these types of projects. That's just not a sustainable model. And if $60 is going to make or break a small scale project like that, I feel the vendor may want to reconsider their pricing. If the project won't sell enough units at a price sufficient to cover just $60 of promotion budget and still end up so the vendor is making a few bucks, it may unfortunately not be a financially viable project.

Yes it's a small market.. In other small markets with sustained aftermarket support, prices are higher, it's just a fact of life because vendors can't spread fixed costs across a large volume of units. It's much healthier for the community to pay a little more and have vendors who are making some kind of profit. If vendors are losing money then the community basically has to depend on people doing it until they get sick of dumping their time into something that loses them money for the benefit of others. How long this takes varies by person but most people aren't going to do it indefinitely.

The same goes for running a site like this. Several other NSX sites have come and gone over the years. Quite a few years ago I started to get tired of paying to run this site out of my own pocket while at the same time dumping a ton of my time into it, so I made a concerted effort to figure out how to get the site to cover costs. In my ideal world I wouldn't run ads on the site at all.. nobody really likes them, including me. But I figured they are probably better than me getting tired of paying out of pocket every month and pulling the plug, so I went with the ads. And I think most people understand that and as a result are at least willing to tolerate the ads. IMO the same applies to charging a few more bucks to make a reasonable profit (or at least not lose money) as a vendor for a niche market.

 

[NSX Prime]

How about a tiered approach? Here's a quick draft of something I had in mind.

I appreciate the suggestion. It's a solid one, and I know a lot of other sites use a tiered vendor model much like you described with great success.

The sites I'm familiar with mostly set their pricing for the "Tier 1" type of access around where I set the vendor rate here. Tier 2 to Tier 3 type exposure is typically in the $100 - $150 per month range.. more on huge forums.

I'm not against a tiered system in the future, I just figured it would be easier to start with something simple and build on it.

 

[NSX Prime]

Because the "information" a vendor may post is subjective, maybe vendors can manage each other... Or notify you only of a vendor that may not be pulling their weight for the forum. Trying to digest all that someone may post up front seems a bit daunting. I think the only way to police that would be ongoing audits.

I like the principle, I just have trouble seeing see a way to successfully and reasonably implement it.

 

[UnhuZ]

Hi,

What established vendors are selling $20 parts and not making enough to pay the fee? And I don't know hugabugas books but it seems to me that he is making enough to travel all over the world to do installs himself so I would think this little business is quite profitable.

all over the world ?! are you assuming that his asking price is 100% profit?? and the thousands he had to spend on molds, etc,etc ?!
Things are not that simple, and i think it's not that difficult to see the difference in profit between Hugabuga business and SOS business.... should they pay THE SAME to bring them Huge differences in profits ?!

As for this vendor requirement killing prime - you're kidding, right!? An amazingly alarmist statement not based in fact or logic. We are such a small part of the automotive world but prime has no competition. This is an interweb monopoly.

Not kidding...not even for a second... had some examples over time, and time will tell if i'm right or wrong... if i'm wrong, i will be thrilled, if i'm right, there isn't much to do then.

About being a monopoly... i see some of you arrogantly saying that, but not Lud... i never saw him with that attitude, and he is the only one that can do it, as this is HIS.... but using the force of being a monopoly to charge whatever he may want, may accelerate the downfall. We aren't talking about Microsoft here :wink:

Requiring vendors to pay for the right to do business in the only forum that any NSx enthusiast turns to is appropriate. The reason nobody wants to go to fleabay or craigslist is because prime is the market for everything NSx.

If you want to buy or sell, you want to do it here. If you want to benefit from such a monopoly on a broader scale as a vendor, it's time to pay for the privilege.

i suggest you read better before you reply. I said:

I think members/vendors should HAVE to contribute since they profit from the audience this forum provides...

this was the last line before your quote on me.

In sequence of what i said, i think:

- the general member can read everything FREE,
- but if you are just a member, but want to buy/sell something on the marketplace, that would be only possible AFTER a donation
- Vendors should have a fee based on a planned scale not to kill the small ones.

and see that this is not my fight, i won't ever be a vendor here, but as an owner, that want to keep buying and have access to parts to maintain and upgrade my NSX, is in my interest that this forum keeps the wide range of offers and not narrow it down. NSX age will do that alone, no need to help doing it faster.


Nuno

 

[RSO 34]

Quite simply if a vendor is so small that he (and I presume it will be a "he" since approximately 98.9% of all owners are male) cannot afford to pay $60 as a "marketing charge" then the "disappearance" of that vendor will have zero effect on this site and, in reality, on the NSX community.

Think about it.

What do you classify as a small vendor? Someone who charges very little or someone who makes only a few parts due to nominal demand.

If it is someone who charges very little, but there is a large demand, that vendor can simply add on a nominal amount to the cost to cover the marketing charge. If a small vendor makes only a handful of parts, then the two or three owners may miss out on their specific wants but that will hardly be a blip in the prime world if that vendor chooses not to pay $60.

There is zero chance that "prime dies" if a couple of hypothetical "small vendors" (none of whom has even posted in this thread) choose not to pay to list here and then cease their operations rather than try other avenues.

As for Hugabuga, I recall threads from many geographical locations having a "hugabuga party" for lack of a better word when he was coming to their locales for an install outing. He has indicated he lives in Portugal but has personally done installs at NSXPO in Las Vegas, NSXPO in NJ/PA, San Francisco, Hawaii (I haven't even been to Hawaii), Maryland, Southern California and those are just the ones I can remember.

I sincerely doubt any vendor, irrespective of size, will want to open up their financials to see what business is generated by Prime in order for it to be put into some formula to determine what they owe. I also highly doubt "small vendors", aka hobbyists, declare this as income on their taxes and would ever consider opening up any "books" to show income generated. Although some seem to treat nsx ownership as a religious experience, Prime is not a tithing church where you pay based upon what you earn.

And in all practicality, if a small vendor was developing a part that could be sold at a profit in sufficient numbers to warrant its R&D, etc., SOS would have already made it and Dali would have already found a way to rip off members for it.

 

[comtec]

Lud, Thank you for reading and responding to my post.
I wasn't trying to do any more then tell my situation as i can only speak for myself.

True i was viewing this as $500 and didn't think about the per month rates. Only problem with that is when it's low production and small cost. Yes before i could have asked for more to make a profit but I chose to price them to what i thought was fair so it was a decision on my part.

I really appreciate your response and i do see where you are coming from.

Thank you
Mike

 

[Jeff@Carbon6]

And in all practicality, if a small vendor was developing a part that could be sold at a profit in sufficient numbers to warrant its R&D, etc., SOS would have already made it and Dali would have already found a way to rip off members for it.

Actually, that is not the case. I have 5-6 items in my private shop that no one has seen yet (mono-ball oem joint replacements, carbon fiber front sub-frame just to name a couple). I do agree though, Vendors should have to pay something. Trying to categorize vendors will be even harder to manage than a flat fee. I don't think going forward with the mentality that "the ones that won't pay are insignificant and don't warrant preventing their loss" is the best answer.

How about limiting the amount of for sale threads based on the subscription level?

 

[RSO 34]

Actually, that is not the case. I have 5-6 items in my private shop that no one has seen yet (mono-ball oem joint replacements, carbon fiber front sub-frame just to name a couple). I do agree though, Vendors should have to pay something. Trying to categorize vendors will be even harder to manage than a flat fee. I don't think going forward with the mentality that "the ones that won't pay are insignificant and don't warrant preventing their loss" is the best answer.

How about limiting the amount of for sale threads based on the subscription level?

Would you pay $60 to test the market for the parts in your private shop?

 

[Jeff@Carbon6]

Would you pay $60 to test the market for the parts in your private shop?

Most of them, yes. Others, if is was a direct/individual cost-to-production maybe not.

My situation is somewhat unique. I generally develop parts for myself. Others contact me and ask if I will make it for them. Without me advertising them for sale (for the most part). I may have thousands in development and tooling. For myself it is a hobby. To sell items it becomes an operating cost. The $60/mo is not going to break me... I'm just trying to imagine those that honestly have something to offer the other NSX owners that may be scared away.

 

[UnhuZ]

Bob,

Quite simply if a vendor is so small that he (and I presume it will be a "he" since approximately 98.9% of all owners are male) cannot afford to pay $60 as a "marketing charge" then the "disappearance" of that vendor will have zero effect on this site and, in reality, on the NSX community.

Think about it.

those $60 only able a vendor to sell for 1 month... and the majority of buyers will actually buy something when there are some positive reviews, and these may take a while....

I really see this as a barrier than a bridge.

What do you classify as a small vendor? Someone who charges very little or someone who makes only a few parts due to nominal demand.

Do you want examples?! in my opinion:

small vendors: VrooooM, TitaniumDave, Hugabuga, JDMMonkey, RJP (before he dissapeared), BrianK, etc,etc,etc

Large Vendors: SOS, Downforce, LoveFab, Dali, etc, etc

Can't you distinguish the 2 types of Vendors here?! The ones that LIVE on NSX business and the ones that NSX business is a little side thing ?!

and with this, and one more time, since you seem to avoid answering, DO YOU THINK IT'S FAIR THAT ALL VENDORS SHOULD PAY THE SAME FLAT FEE ?!

If it is someone who charges very little, but there is a large demand, that vendor can simply add on a nominal amount to the cost to cover the marketing charge. If a small vendor makes only a handful of parts, then the two or three owners may miss out on their specific wants but that will hardly be a blip in the prime world if that vendor chooses not to pay $60.

There is zero chance that "prime dies" if a couple of hypothetical "small vendors" (none of whom has even posted in this thread) choose not to pay to list here and then cease their operations rather than try other avenues.

So, in your eyes, small vendors aren't really needed and if they all end, no harm is done to this very small Community....

As for Hugabuga, I recall threads from many geographical locations having a "hugabuga party" for lack of a better word when he was coming to their locales for an install outing. He has indicated he lives in Portugal but has personally done installs at NSXPO in Las Vegas, NSXPO in NJ/PA, San Francisco, Hawaii (I haven't even been to Hawaii), Maryland, Southern California and those are just the ones I can remember.

i see .... you think "world" = "USA" :tongue:

I sincerely doubt any vendor, irrespective of size, will want to open up their financials to see what business is generated by Prime in order for it to be put into some formula to determine what they owe. I also highly doubt "small vendors", aka hobbyists, declare this as income on their taxes and would ever consider opening up any "books" to show income generated. Although some seem to treat nsx ownership as a religious experience, Prime is not a tithing church where you pay based upon what you earn.

we are not talking about get social security aid here where income has to be proved... this is a internet forum, i think we can differenciate them a little easier than that...like i said above:

- $150 for small vendors that sell NSX parts as a side business
- $500 for shops that live solely ON NSX Parts

(these values are just examples)

And in all practicality, if a small vendor was developing a part that could be sold at a profit in sufficient numbers to warrant its R&D, etc., SOS would have already made it and Dali would have already found a way to rip off members for it.

this just shows that you don't know what you are talking about... try to read the forums, besides this one and buyer/seller experience (which seems that it's all you read) and see how many things (hundreds) lot of primers invented, created, and some even sold, that SOS don't sell ... SOS only sells something that give them like 50% profit or more.

About Dali, once again, i really find amazing that with all your diligences and investigative power, MJ is still free...

It's really hard to discuss with you, when you are so closed up to what others say and in some aspects, you seem to be disconnected from the reality...

I really hope Lud balances all this opinions and suggestions to make this community better and safer....preferably by not eliminating valuable resources as the small vendors (in this case).

Nuno

PS - i will stop this discussion with on my part, and only comment future suggestions and post something new i may think of..

 

[docjohn]

I think lud apreciates a civil discussion about the topic...thats why he responded in the thread,I hope more small hobyist vendors chime in...like Steve aka Dr Hid:wink:

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Vendors helping to underwrite the cost of maintaining a forum like this is reasonable - it's also the norm, and $42/month ($500/12) is actually quite low compared to other forums. We have maintained somewhat regular voluntary sponsorship payments to NSXPrime in the past, purely to give back to the community we cater to, however with out an automated system in place, it was difficult to keep tabs on. I think this system will give us some regularity and ability to budget in advance.

Any legitimate business should factor at least some advertising budget. It would be difficult for the site to differentiate small vs. large businesses - rather, a simple solution may be to add value add "tiers" where a vendor pays for more exposure (banner ad, etc.)

regards,
-- Chris

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

I'm with Chris on this,

Keeping tabs on donations is quite a task certainly in a multi person company.
I'm in favour of the $500 vendor fee as it gives incentive towards customer service and legitimate business.

The small vendors and starting companies are hit indeed, and that makes this a mixed situation but then again, we all know our cars aren't cheap.
I think for vendors to put out feelers the new system is adequate $60 for a months feeler thread should be enough.
I sponsor about 4 forums, if I look at those fee's I feel this is about right.

What I'm against on a personal level is the banner idea, let's not clog the web site with banners and other advertisement it won't be of added value to the others.

I off-course don't know the running costs but I for see 10 to 15.000 being raised annually to support the web site just from the new system.
Add tot that donations and I think the forum should be sustainable.

 

[g3driver]

As I see it prime and the vendors need each other equally. Prime needs the traffic and banner clicks and the vendors need a avenue to tell people and the products. I think prime is a little late in the game to charge now. Most people have owned their car a while now and just go directly to the vendor for the part they need. What is to stop people from just posting their "review" of a new part and providing and external link? That would be a way to bypass the vendor thing.

 

[Hrant]

I just started following this thread and for the most part the two sides are talking mostly across each other and not to each other regarding the viability of such an option particularly for "small hobby vendors."

The last three comments are on target, especially the observation by g3driver. And indeed, some of the veteran hobbyist vendors have remained silent. I'll take a bate:tongue:

I can speak for myself only. And since my products have been around for some 10+ years and new products for this dwindling market are not scheduled, having a monthly subscription to remain as a classified vendor doesn't make sense. My custom floor mats and car covers last for years and come with limited lifetime warranty; so repeat clients for the same items are few but they do come back when they need another product or if they purchased another NSX :wink:

I understand the value of becoming a paying vendor when a new product is introduced - and the risk/reward associated with pricing the product accordingly. But do realize based on my experience, more than half of those who jump with posts "I want one" or "put me down for one" often don't pan out when payment becomes due .

Some historical perspective might be helpful to put this in context of perceived "value" to vendors. Such a suggestion in the early years would have been sustainable; those were my best years as a vendor on and off Prime for the NSX products. We had a significantly larger percentage of original owners (and hence more disposable income floating for goodies). Fast forward to the present, where every joe shmoe is shopping for free vendor advice on Prime only to jump ship and find a vendor on e-Bay or the Internet (I have commented on this before and on this forum - so this is not new), the incentive to remain on Prime as a continuous fee subscribing vendor would no longer be conducive especially if no new pricier products are introduced. My products are all custom made to order so there is quite a bit of hand holding time with a client. Vendors understand this; and this what I believe is the gist of the comments of the newer vendors with products that either have low pricing range or the margins can't be pushed to make reasonable sales given the risk/reward. But as in all real unsubsidized businesses, one won't know unless one tests the product/pricing targets. This is what we call price elasticity in economics.

Prime no longer has exclusivity or monopoly over NSX related product information. As g3driver aptly noted, Google and other search engines offer alternative avenues to finding products on websites. But a vetted vendor on Prime has indeed added value to - and only to - those who want some added confidence in their purchase. And value goes both ways; vendors benefit from exposure to the Prime community and Prime members benefit from having vendors who are willing to be subjected to every perceivable evaluation and critique of their products with instant feedback - not to mention free advice. Without vendor input/participation - include the likes of Larry Bastanza for example who is a service/mechanic vendor, Prime would not have the same resources and value to all of its members. And especially under current Prime rules, vendors continue to contribute technical information as enthusiastic Prime members albeit barred from linking their comments/solutions to any perceived sales/marketing pitch to their products.

My recommendation has been and remains the same: make access to Prime (especially given the benefits of the search option and free advice) a fee driven membership to all. Both vendors and member are benefiting from each other. And if SOS or Dali make more margins based on their monopoly or volumes, so be it; they are devoting more time and resources to reading and addressing the NSX owner's needs with their own R&D - and since most owners are on Prime, or can access Prime, they have been benefiting all this time. Mutual symbiosis.

Edit: for the record, KHrant Enterprises is a licensed retailer.

Just my $0.02.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

I'm against charging members to take advantage of the huge amount of information prime has.
This will drive out a good percentage of fan's and some owners certainly the non English owners or those not fluent enough (we have quite a few)

All the information should remain public,
But we can charge vendors enough to keep everything in the air.

Hrant is right in that this i a big blow to the small vendors.
Also his point in the time spent assisting clients is large.

I personally like to help customers and people with questions or concerns regarding there NSX or Legend, i happily share knowledge tips and tricks but it does take time.

This could be seen as a return investment into the forum i don't want to sit back only cashing in on sales.
I am personally active on both prime and al.org because i care about the community.
Although the same can't be said for the other forums I sponsor although I do the same just not at the same intensity, I after al have a company to run.
Regarding what Hrant said about feeler threads, he's right big time.
Certainly on the Legend forum 2/3 will drop out when pay day comes, that's a inherent risk and makes judging the market difficult.

A other point I'd like to make towards the Moderators is promotion of the I-Trader system it's there but it isn't used (on most forums it isn't)
the number of people that leave feedback is tiny, talking 2% tiny! this isn't help full for making the forum safer.

 

[comtec]

I think the main parts of the forum should stay free but you could limit the marketplace to paid members. Don't think i would take it more then that.




Only idea i have would be

Commercial vendors- Pay a fee to be able to post threads in the vendor section. Since these are companies they also do business outside of prime so there would be no way to track their (prime) sells to do it differently.


Small vendors- Must use enthustify and enthustify places ad in vendors section sort of as a proxy for the small vendor like they are now doing in the for sale section. Enthustify collects predetermined amount from sale for their fee and prime's. All small vendor sells must use the service.

Just trying to help
Mike

 

[NSX Prime]

Commercial vendors- Pay a fee to be able to post threads in the vendor section. Since these are companies they also do business outside of prime so there would be no way to track their (prime) sells to do it differently.

Small vendors- Must use enthustify and enthustify places ad in vendors section sort of as a proxy for the small vendor like they are now doing in the for sale section. Enthustify collects predetermined amount from sale for their fee and prime's. All small vendor sells must use the service.

Just trying to help
Mike

Interesting idea. There are some technical challenges to that but I will certainly consider it. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[SOURCE 1]

I'll chime in.

I don't agree with making everyone pay for this amazing forum. I think people that make money from it should. Now is $500 to much for a "small" vendor? Maybe but what is a "small" vendor? Where is that line crossed?

We have supported prime for years and have no issue paying the fee at all. But I can see where people are having the problem with it.

The tier system may be Interesting. The higher paying vendors pay the most makes sense in my head.

Brian

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

I think the main parts of the forum should stay free but you could limit the marketplace to paid members. Don't think i would take it more then that.




Only idea i have would be

Commercial vendors- Pay a fee to be able to post threads in the vendor section. Since these are companies they also do business outside of prime so there would be no way to track their (prime) sells to do it differently.


Small vendors- Must use enthustify and enthustify places ad in vendors section sort of as a proxy for the small vendor like they are now doing in the for sale section. Enthustify collects predetermined amount from sale for their fee and prime's. All small vendor sells must use the service.

Just trying to help
Mike

Best idea so far.
I think this is most far as it doesn't pose upfront costs for the small hobbyist and small time vendor

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Lud stated that the $500/annual fee was to help get rid of fly-by-night/bad vendors. In my opinion, it may thwart a troll vendor who plans on stopping by to unload a bunch of crap and leave. But I agree it will prevent a small time vendor from spending much product development time on Prime. I was a VERY small markup vendor here, and felt I "paid" my right to sell by the thousands of posts in general threads, not selling anything, but "helping" owners with wheel fitment issues, racing setup info etc. People bought from me for two reasons. 1) lowest price 2) cause the knew me from my involvement in the site. Would I have paid the $500? Maybe, maybe not. I really didn't post a ton of vendor links etc, most just knew me as the wheel/tire/suspension/brake guy, and just emailed me for a price. They knew I gave killer prices, and would buy stuff from me for their other non-NSX cars as well. I didn't leave Prime because of a "fee", I left because a small group of members that would bash you if their ice cream was too cold. My opinion, is the fee will not really get rid of scammers. The fee is chump change for them. The fee will get rid of all vendors like BrianK (example). I guess my only advice to buyers, is do your research, or ask a long-time trusted member their opinion. I guess the only thing that would make sense is to have a 3% sales fee for anything purchased through prime classifieds. But just like Ebay, back door deals will always happen. To prevent it, make it a upfront 3% listing fee whether it sells or not. Good Luck. And yes, Jeff (Vrooom)does have crazy projects laying around next door!