NSX-R test car ECU troubleshooting...

[Malibu Rapper]

Hello it's been a long time.

Looking for some knowledgeable help here... Here is the background. My buddy has an NA2 NSX-R which was imported from Japan. This is a 2001 car but it has the 2002+ facelift and it came this way. The car is outside of the country and rumor has it that this car is some kind of test car for Honda.

The only reason why I believe that story is because of the problem that it has. It came with this modified ECU. The car has some issues idling and stalling. Because the ECU is modified, the OBDII information cannot be read.

I located an NA2 NSX-R ECU and shipped it to him. He got it and after installing it, the car doesn't crank. Now if you look at the pictures of the ECUs below, you'll see that it's pretty well modified. It has some kind of a circuit board, an extra DIN plug, and wires tapped into different pins. Someone really knew what they were doing and did a somewhat decent job. When the OEM ECU is installed, the OBDII information can be read. You can see also on the modified ECU that there are a set of wires that run along the side of the case and then exit next to the original blue socket.

My guess is that some of the extra wiring is the culprit. He hasn't been able to trace the wires back, but I think it's affecting the main relay as I would expect the car to crank regardless of what ECU it's using. Anyone have some insight to shed? Anyone ever see an ECU modified in such a way?

Please see pics below. Top two pics are of an OEM NSX-R ECU and the bottom two are of the test car ECU.

 

[Bram]

You know that on Newer car with immobilizer, the Key code is programmed into the ECU, therefore the ECU that was sent will not start the car without being re-programmed.

That is as much as I know.

Bram

 

[lithiumus]

I don't know of many JDM Honda cars that have immobilizers. I can't say 100% for certain but odds are, if the NA2 Type R ECU was from Japan and NOT EU, it will not have an immobilizer.

IF the ECU is from the EU, it will definitely have an immobilizer which will need to be defeated. I can usually spot the immobilizer chip on the Honda ECUs but I need better photos and some angled shots to confirm...

It's been ages Malibu!

 

[Bram]

Garrick, when I was in Japan, I was looking to source an NSX-R key that came with an immobilizer chip, that can be reprogrammed for use on my car. I was unable to get one because these NSX-R keys are cut and program from the Factory using the VIN/Serial number of the Car, and therefore are not sold to Non NSX-R owners.

Perhaps, the Newer NSX-R came with an Immobilizer chips.

Bram

 

[shawn110975]

wow this is cool, if there were better pics of each soider marks
maybe we could figure it out.

Im thinking its a direct bypass for the throttle by wire.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

I don't know of many JDM Honda cars that have immobilizers. I can't say 100% for certain but odds are, if the NA2 Type R ECU was from Japan and NOT EU, it will not have an immobilizer.

IF the ECU is from the EU, it will definitely have an immobilizer which will need to be defeated. I can usually spot the immobilizer chip on the Honda ECUs but I need better photos and some angled shots to confirm...

It's been ages Malibu!

Thanks. Trying to put this whole thing together is puzzling. The car is in Thailand. The ECU has been tried on this NA2 NSX-R and another regular NA2 over there and it doesn't start either of them. Leads me to believe Bram is right about the immobilizer. We're trying to figure out if there is one in the car but time constraints and having someone technical look for the unit have not allowed us to find out yet. I'll see if I can get some more detailed shots of each of the chips. I found a pic of the immobilizer chip for that era ECU here and here.

Previous owner of the ECU mentions it was just plug and play. I believe that, too. From what I read there were only about 20 different chips that could be used for the immobilizer. If it was a 1 in 20 chance, then it would have been very good luck. Or perhaps if this was a brand new ECU at the time, maybe Honda wisely chose to make brand new ECUs auto-program with the immobilizer in case someone ever bought one straight from the factory and swapped it out.

wow this is cool, if there were better pics of each soider marks
maybe we could figure it out.

Im thinking its a direct bypass for the throttle by wire.

If we get this mess sorted out, I'm sure I can get better pictures of this ECU. I always thought the test cars were destroyed or never let out of the test grounds but it's either the work of Honda or someone fairly technical.

 

[8400RPM]

You know that on Newer car with immobilizer, the Key code is programmed into the ECU, therefore the ECU that was sent will not start the car without being re-programmed.

That is as much as I know.

Bram

Nice catch!!!!

 

[99 rs]

On my friend's 2005 civic (Canadian model) when she had a remote starter installed something went crazy with the immobilizer system. The car wouldn't recognize the keys anymore. It would crank and crank all day long but wouldn't fire. The green immobilizer light was blinking while the car was cranking. Not sure if there were other factors involved but if it was just the chip in the key causing the problems then the car still cranks.

 

[comtec]

Hey Malibu, hope you are doing well.

Definately looks like a test ECU but the daughter board is a production piece. Can you read anything on it? I see the top connector looks like it's labeled Flash.

Mike

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Thanks guys. Been doing great!

Lithiumus brought up a great point about the immobilizer chip on the ECU. My friend was able to take another pic of the ECU and the only thing that looked like a circuit board was this thing below. Everything else is covered and looks like a blob.

Doesn't look at all like the immobilizer pics I've seen. Anecdotal data seems to suggest that JDM ECUs with immobilizers are indeed rare. I was misinformed before that the car doesn't crank because it does crank, it just doesn't start.

If this ECU doesn't have an immobilizer and it worked on an NA2 USDM car which does have an immobilizer, why doesn't it work on 2 JDM NSXs? One of the NSXs is that test car which isn't quite right, but the other car is just an ordinary NA2.

Because it cranks but doesn't start seems to suggest that there is a fuel issue and I haven't been able to confirm that the fuel pump is priming.

Definately looks like a test ECU but the daughter board is a production piece. Can you read anything on it? I see the top connector looks like it's labeled Flash.

I'll try to get some better pics of it...

 

[comtec]

Just a guess but with the external connectors and the port that looks like flash, Maybe that one can be reprogrammed while in the car.


I think i see the immobilizer chip in the last pic. The Hybrid IC, little green card labeled HIC402.


Very similar to this one

Mike

 

[kookoo4nsx]

This thread is about 3 levels above my pay grade.

 

[lithiumus]

That's the pic I need. It's using the older generation Immobilizer chip in the HIC402 slot. Can you confirm if the green key blinks in the car? If he's willing to desolder it, the immibilizer can be bypassed. Just turn to IGN2, wait until the green key finishes blinking or goes solid, then start it up. You can get a IMMO bypass in the future. I'd socket it so you can just insert the IMMO bypass or the original immobilizer back in.

 

[lithiumus]

Garrick, when I was in Japan, I was looking to source an NSX-R key that came with an immobilizer chip, that can be reprogrammed for use on my car. I was unable to get one because these NSX-R keys are cut and program from the Factory using the VIN/Serial number of the Car, and therefore are not sold to Non NSX-R owners.

Perhaps, the Newer NSX-R came with an Immobilizer chips.

Bram

Looks like they have immobilizers but if the ECU shown in this thread is an indication, it's the first generation standard immobilizer which can either be bypassed or reprogrammed. No special VIN necessary. In Japan, they discourage the selling of Type R parts to non R owners by requesting the VIN but it's not used for immobilizer programming.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Comtec, Lithiumus, & Bram, are all spot on! This makes it all a lot less mysterious now. Time to order the bypass module and have some soldering work done. I'll keep you guys posted with the results...

 

[Malibu Rapper]

We bought a bypass module online, had it soldered onto the ECU. The results are below...

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UorHQw_aJgg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

God is great! We got some really sharp members on here. Gotta give extra credit to Bram, the first reply and he got it! Will try to get some close up pics of the test ECU for you guys.

Thanks again guys!

 

[etang789]

wow you guys are amazing figuring this out!

someone should try to reverse engineer the NSX-R modified ECU

 

[Ko-nsx]

Great find guys! I was wonder why the board in the above pics says, NA1 on it? I think the board number is H* 330?

 

[shawn110975]

when Bram, Lithiumus, Comtec post on prime its like a gold gift from above LOL

what threw me off was the D.I.N. style plug in for this it was as if someone jury rigged it cuz thats all they had left in their tool box.

also what if we just helped a bunch of car theives start a car that in the garage of the people the have tied up in the upstairs bedroom LOL

Just saying

 

[Malibu Rapper]

when Bram, Lithiumus, Comtec post on prime its like a gold gift from above LOL

what threw me off was the D.I.N. style plug in for this it was as if someone jury rigged it cuz thats all they had left in their tool box.

also what if we just helped a bunch of car theives start a car that in the garage of the people the have tied up in the upstairs bedroom LOL

Just saying

If they want to open up an ECU, order an immobilizer bypass from Europe, and then solder it into an ECU to take a car, you might as well let them.

Here is are the pictures of the test ECU.

 

[shawn110975]

its cool to have pics of a real NSX-R ECU these pics should be in the WIKI section.

nice work. :smile:

 

[sr5guy]

This test ECU could be the key to "chipping" the 95 and up NSX ECU's. The daughterboard enables in-situ flashing of the H8/539 processor, and the 84 pin H8/330 processor has been socketed and replaced with an H8/330 ceramic bodied ZTAT (zero turn around time) re-programmable processor. It appears that the male connector handles datalogging, while the female connector is probably for flashing purposes. Does this gentleman have any of the associated programming cables, hardware or software to interface with the ECU? The mitsubishi (lancer EVO) and subaru community have the flashing of the H8/539F down pretty well. If there is no "key" or other security measures embedded in the chip it may simply be a matter of studying the design of the daughterboard to develop something with the ability to flash program the stock ECU's.

I have only come across two other "test" ECU's in the wild like this, one of them I wasn't able to find to post here, I forgot where I saw it. All I remember is that it was for a civic and the gentleman had found it in a junkyard - with water damage. This other one I was able to find on honda tech was a MUGEN ECU with similar OEM test features... http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2557836 In this case the daughterboard is a simple TTL-RS232 converter.

As you can see, the blue external connector is nearly identical.

-Matt

 

[Malibu Rapper]

That's really great info and there are striking similarities. No he does not have the cables or the software unfortunately. What is shown here is what he has. Just the ECU... This modified ECU had stalling issues and there was no way to read OBDII data. Somewhere in Japan there's a dude who knows everything about this...

This test ECU could be the key to "chipping" the 95 and up NSX ECU's. The daughterboard enables in-situ flashing of the H8/539 processor, and the 84 pin H8/330 processor has been socketed and replaced with an H8/330 ceramic bodied ZTAT (zero turn around time) re-programmable processor. It appears that the male connector handles datalogging, while the female connector is probably for flashing purposes. Does this gentleman have any of the associated programming cables, hardware or software to interface with the ECU? The mitsubishi (lancer EVO) and subaru community have the flashing of the H8/539F down pretty well. If there is no "key" or other security measures embedded in the chip it may simply be a matter of studying the design of the daughterboard to develop something with the ability to flash program the stock ECU's.

I have only come across two other "test" ECU's in the wild like this, one of them I wasn't able to find to post here, I forgot where I saw it. All I remember is that it was for a civic and the gentleman had found it in a junkyard - with water damage. This other one I was able to find on honda tech was a MUGEN ECU with similar OEM test features... http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2557836 In this case the daughterboard is a simple TTL-RS232 converter.

As you can see, the blue external connector is nearly identical.


-Matt

 

[sr5guy]

That's really great info and there are striking similarities. No he does not have the cables or the software unfortunately. What is shown here is what he has. Just the ECU... This modified ECU had stalling issues and there was no way to read OBDII data. Somewhere in Japan there's a dude who knows everything about this...

I'm not sure if you have seen my thread, here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143407

I am deep into the disassembly of the 91-94 NSX and 91-95 Legend. Although the newer NSX ecu's are leaps and bounds different, the processors remained consistent - Hitachi H8. The major difference being that the newer ECU's migrated all of the tables and data out of an easily accessible external chip and directly into the processor. I am now very familiar with the H8's assembler coding which is based on the ancient DEC PDP-11.

I imagine Honda holds their cables and software very dearly. That "dude" probably would be scared to tell you any details and is probably bound by NDA's. Who know's... Maybe they have expired.

Would there be any chance that you could post the part numbers on the chips that are on the daughterboard? How about some photographs of the bottom of the daughterboard and photographs of the ECU with the daughterboard removed? What are the chances of getting a software read from the socketed H8/330 microprocessors? The adapters for the h8 are relatively standardized. They allow the processor to be read from a standard E/EPROM programmer and can be found on ebay in the $20 range.

As far as the ECU not working properly, I have one major question - when the ignition is powered on does the check engine light turn on and then go off? If it stays on, the ECU may be in backup mode, and in that case my first attempt at repair would be to remove and reinsert the H8/330 in its socket. Being that it is a ceramic bodied processor, it is probably extremely fragile, I would definitely use an extraction tool.

-Matt

 

[Malibu Rapper]

I'm not sure if you have seen my thread, here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143407

I am deep into the disassembly of the 91-94 NSX and 91-95 Legend. Although the newer NSX ecu's are leaps and bounds different, the processors remained consistent - Hitachi H8. The major difference being that the newer ECU's migrated all of the tables and data out of an easily accessible external chip and directly into the processor. I am now very familiar with the H8's assembler coding which is based on the ancient DEC PDP-11.

I imagine Honda holds their cables and software very dearly. That "dude" probably would be scared to tell you any details and is probably bound by NDA's. Who know's... Maybe they have expired.

Would there be any chance that you could post the part numbers on the chips that are on the daughterboard? How about some photographs of the bottom of the daughterboard and photographs of the ECU with the daughterboard removed? What are the chances of getting a software read from the socketed H8/330 microprocessors? The adapters for the h8 are relatively standardized. They allow the processor to be read from a standard E/EPROM programmer and can be found on ebay in the $20 range.

As far as the ECU not working properly, I have one major question - when the ignition is powered on does the check engine light turn on and then go off? If it stays on, the ECU may be in backup mode, and in that case my first attempt at repair would be to remove and reinsert the H8/330 in its socket. Being that it is a ceramic bodied processor, it is probably extremely fragile, I would definitely use an extraction tool.

-Matt

Matt, I didn't see that thread because I don't scan the forums much anymore but you have a really worthy cause. I think in the interest of time for all of us, it might be a better idea to have the ECU shipped to you if you can just please be able to return it if needed, I don't know that it will be necessary. But I think with it going into capable hands and based on the sharing of information you've posted in the other thread it would be a huge benefit to the community. PM me your info, I can talk to my friend about getting the ECU sent directly to you or if I have a trip abroad next month I will be able to pick it up.