NSX-R modifications & future values

[stuntman]

I don't think the NSX-R is making that kind of power. Even if it did, I would put my $ on the 997 GT3 having driven all the cars you mentioned.

 

[Patricio]

I hear ya, the 997 GT3 is a beast.
Its a good measuring stick.

how low of weight do you think the N/A NSX needs to achieve to be comparable? or faster?

 

[stuntman]

Not sure. But FYI, if 02+ cars are putting down 260whp, that's a 10.3% drivetrain loss. Assuming 295whp is true (I'm skeptical), that would make 325bhp.

 

[robbiedawg]

Not sure. But FYI, if 02+ cars are putting down 260whp, that's a 10.3% drivetrain loss. Assuming 295whp is true (I'm skeptical), that would make 325bhp.

do all nsx's have a drivetrain hp loss of around 10%?

 

[stuntman]

Hard to say. Dynos are just tools and they can vary quite a bit depending on the type of dyno used, weather conditions, etc... 260whp is common on a Dynojet so for that type of dyno its ~10% or the NSX was slightly under-rated. At the end of the day it probably isn't worth focusing too hard on dyno #s .

 

[greenberet]

I fully agree that the absolute numbers dynos spit out need to be taken with several grains of salt. I don't want to contribute to this thread getting derailed any further from its original question, which was: how can I lose as little money as possible when modifying an NSX in the spirit of an NSX-R?

But I just have to add: Detlef put an original NA2 Type-R engine into his regular NSX and had it dynod. According to the dyno, that NA2 NSX-R engine put out a corrected 308 horsepower at the crank. I can't remember whether that was with or without the intake and exhaust mods Detlef sells. In any case, the NA2 Type-R engine may put out more than the 276 horsepower (280 PS) at the crank it was rated for, but perhaps not that much more.

 

[Patricio]

I don't want to contribute to this thread getting derailed any further from its original question, which was: how can I lose as little money as possible when modifying an NSX in the spirit of an NSX-R?

Please continue, anything that contributes towards figuring out how to reverse engineer or improve an NSX to NSX-R functionality and figuring out how to go about it is relevant

I'm not trying be a thread nazi my own thread, , I just wanted to avoid all the questions of authenticity and boost talk that was previously brought up by others.


when u mention the dyno and crank power, you have me very curious... did detfef put that engine on a hub dyno or engine dyno?

just want to be clear, same engine measured
engine dyno: engine is out of car and measures engine with no drive train loss nor wheel loss = 0% loss
hub dyno: wheels off, measures after drive train loss but without wheel weight loss = 10% ?
wheel dyno: wheels on car, and is measured after drivetrain and wheel weight energy is lost. thus = 12-20% loss = WHP wheel HP

Hard to say. Dynos are just tools and they can vary quite a bit depending on the type of dyno used, weather conditions, etc... 260whp is common on a Dynojet so for that type of dyno its ~10% or the NSX was slightly under-rated. At the end of the day it probably isn't worth focusing too hard on dyno #s .

I agree that the NSX likely has a lower than usual drive train loss.....
basically the NSX's more efficient power-train actually makes the NSX appear slower when comparing actual crank numbers. therefore I try to account for that. by using increased 15% crank numbers that equal estimated whp by adjusting the average loss to equal and reflect relative net power.
Professional arm chair racing at its finest .

I hope i explained that correctly.

3.2L engine
100hp per liter is only 320hp
110hp per liter would be 352hp
i would not be surprised if it makes somewhere in between those two.

I still think something was up with the NSX-R engine maybe a slightly increased compression ratio or stroke since coincidentally the crank, pistons and rods are "balanced" reading in between the lines suggests "modified". ... to further conspiracy theories my opinion this may have also been a factor for reasons to not sell the NSX-R the US, as Honda may have not found it worthwhile to go though re-testing the emissions in us or japan for a limited production car. and just left the engine "Specs" the same.. this would explain the part numbers would also remain the same since they are hand "blueprinted"..

I seriously doubt a huge manufacture like Honda would bother "blueprinting" by hand just to gain a few HP..... this is just the secret sauce.

 

[stuntman]

NA2s were rated at 290hp (294 PS) and ALL NSX engines were hand balanced. Until someone rebuilds and dissects an NSX-R engine, we won't know for sure.

It would be good to know if detlef had NSX-R wheels, intake and exhaust. Is there a link to where he dynoed it?

It's still not correct to blanketly assume % of drivetrain loss. For example the V8 E92 M3s are rated at 414hp while the twin turbo I-6 F82 M3 are rated at 425hp, while there is an 80whp difference between the two. You really can't say the F80s have a 1% drivetrain loss and its not really possible to measure the drivetrain loss correctly. Assuming drivetrain losses is for the most part conjecture.

It's still not precise but it would be a better comparison to dyno a GT3 and NSX on the same day, same dyno, and as close to back to back for weather conditions as possible. Next would possibly be comparisons in whp of two cars on the same type of dyno taking weather condition differences into consideration. Assuming a drivetrain loss and comparing the calculated bhp (which differs from the official numbers) to another cars stated bhp is pretty erroneous.

0.02

 

[Honcho]

One thing I think is important is the suspension. Nothing gives the car more "personality." The suspension is how the car talks to the driver. While there are many suspension options that likely out-perform the OEM R unit, if you really want the feel of a NSX-R I would recommend sticking with the full OEM aero and suspension package. I'm sure Detlef can source you a lightly used set.

I think your best bet is to find a really cheap, ratty junkyard NSX with a straight body. Gut the whole thing and build from the ground up. You might be able to use the 3.0 and just sleeve it to 3.2 for less money than buying a used 3.2. I would stick to stainless or iconel for the headers- titanium can become brittle and crack. The Fujitsubo Super Ti, however, would be a great exhaust for this project . Many actual NSX-R's run that exhaust in Japan.

Andreas is right- I would go with the Procar hood and P2FR carbon beams.

 

[greenberet]

Honda rated NA2 NSX-Rs at 280 PS (276 hp) - see here: http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-archive/nsx/2005/grade-data/r-spec.html

I don't think NA2 Type-R crankshafts, connecting rods, etc. have any different part numbers than those of regular NSXs. Therefore no different compression ratio, displacement, etc. The difference was the level to which the engine parts were balanced. If NSX-Rs had different intake manifolds, camshafts, headers, etc., people like me would be all over those parts.

When Detlef had his NA2 Type-R engine measured, he put the car on a chassis dyno. On European chassis dynos, you pull to the redline, depress the clutch but keep the transmission in gear, and let the wheels coast down. The dyno measures how fast the rollers accelerate and how fast they slow down. The force slowing the rollers down is assumed to be the driveline losses. Both forces together are used to estimate the crank horsepower entering the transmission.

Detlef posted his dyno sheet in his gallery on NSX Prime: here and here. As you can see, according to the dyno, his corrected crank horsepower were 312.6 PS (308 hp). That's very good for NSXs dyno'd in Europe. Detlef's engine put a corrected 226 hp to the rollers and the corrected driveline losses were 82 hp (27% of the crank hp). I'm sure the whp would have been much more impressive if measured on a dyno in the States. It just reinforces what stuntman said: dynos are great tools but don't believe what they say unless you can put another car on the same dyno on the same day as a reference.

Regarding the driveline losses: you can see how the force slowing the dyno rollers down increases exponentially with wheel speed. Driveline losses are not a fixed percentage of wheel horsepower. The higher the gear in which you test, the higher the wheel speed, the higher the driveline losses, and the lower the accelerative force that makes it to the rollers. The gear in which you test doesn't really affect estimated crank horsepower, though.

 

[RYU]

Looks like the ad for the NSX-R "clone" (using the term clone very loosely) is no longer online.


Heck, even my own NSX is more of an NSX-R than his. Just as an example, my car is 3010 lbs with driver, 3/4 tank of gas, Autorotor CTSC, Valvetronic exhaust system, BBK, air lift system, and a few other things that add weight like a harness and harness bar. If I back out all the extra weight I can get to


3,010 lbs w/ Driver & 3/4 gas
(200 lbs) Driver
(50 lbs) CTSC and supporting mods like water injection
(45 lbs) Air lift system, MASiV radiator, & Misc safety and braces


Nets out to 2,715lbs. W/o the driver my car is ~2,810 with CTSC and everything else. That's about as light as I want to get it to w/o starting to compromise stuff like sound deadening or AC or stereo. Weight reduction wasn't even my primary goal. For example, I picked up a Procar NSX-RR vented hood but that was because I wanted the extra air flow for my heavier radiator and wanted it to fit properly. It just happened to be lighter than the stock hood. I built my own air lift system because I enjoy driving the car on everyday roads. I got rid of the stock seats in exchange for Recaro buckets not because of weight but because my body was getting sore the day after track days from holding myself in place while the car was tossing around.


Also, the stock CTSC will heatsoak but it's VERY easy to make it perform at the track (I've done so for 3yrs+) while still maintaing smog legality.


I never claimed I was building a NSX-R clone but I have publicly said my NSX was NSX-R inspired. Whereby "inspired" is based on personal interpretation. My interpretation will be different than others. Which is why it's a clone/replica/tribute NSX-R should never be marketed as such. It's just too subjective.

 

[Patricio]

I don't think NA2 Type-R crankshafts, connecting rods, etc. have any different part numbers than those of regular NSXs. Therefore no different compression ratio, displacement, etc. The difference was the level to which the engine parts were balanced. If NSX-Rs had different intake manifolds, camshafts, headers, etc., people like me would be all over those parts.

I'm not claiming to know what was done by any means.... what I do know is that no one knows what Honda did for sure. and that Honda admits to modifying the crank pistons & rods "blueprinting" them, they don't have to disclose anything further. They can do allot of modification to these parts and still retain the same part number, they would not "produced" or available to buy since they where modified by hand. and that would avoid costly EPA testing regulations, as many manufactures try to avoid when building limited production editions.... we also know how secretive Honda was with the NSXR-GT . .. they obviously had allot in mind and where testing/ playing with some seriously hard core crazy ideas. Honda could have done anything....
The OEM regular parts could be lightened, special metal treatments, and modified in other ways and no new part number would be given. in all kind of racing people use cheater techniques to get more power without being detected. Given Honda's engineers where tied in closely with F1 development there are plenty of tricks that could have been used.

Someone explain this:
We do know the engine puts out more than its rating and Honda was not willing to market that power rating, for whatever reason, likely EPA type rules...
NSX-R / NSX Zero have been timed at 12.5-12.7 in the 1/4 mile.
NSX-R's sell for allot of money compared to any other modern Japanese sports car. My friend buys Supra turbos and skylines GTR's often for 40-60k on japstarz.com..
There are about 400 NSX-R's not exactly rare to command 100k over an NA2 just based on "special edition" alone.
People sell seats and hoods and suspensions but I have yet to see NSX-R engines being sold, so no one seams to be getting rid of them even though they would probably be worth enough money to build a 400whp stoker..

Overall if there was nothing substantially "special" about the NSX-R it would never hold the market values like it does just on rarity alone, rather the reviewers would likely rip it apart in favor of supras and syline's but instead they put NSX-R on a god like pedestal. This is evidence enough to me that engine has to be putting out allot more than its rated.

- - - Updated - - -

Which is why it's a clone/replica/tribute NSX-R should never be marketed as such. It's just too subjective.

Totally agreed.
I don't intend on calling my car an NSX-R clone/replica ect. either...... for me its just a way of building with the same intentions as the NSX-R had.
But also I cant deny its a NSX-R clone.

Your car is great build man one of my favorites.
what year is your car?

- - - Updated - - -

It's still not precise but it would be a better comparison to dyno a GT3 and NSX on the same day, same dyno, and as close to back to back for weather conditions as possible. Next would possibly be comparisons in whp of two cars on the same type of dyno taking weather condition differences into consideration. Assuming a drivetrain loss and comparing the calculated bhp (which differs from the official numbers) to another cars stated bhp is pretty erroneous.

0.02

Of course this would be the proper way of doing it, but then i would have to get off my racing chair at home.

For now I can only adjust for the NSX's more efficient than average drivetrain


----------

Maybe I'm just having a fan boy moment!

 

[greenberet]

If you'd like, you can read what Honda said about the NA2 NSX-R engine when the car was introduced here: http://world.honda.com/NSX/

Years later, NSX Prime member 8400RPM spoke with Shigeru Uehara, the lead engineer who developed the NSX, about the NSX-R. He documented his interview on NSX Prime here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...h-Shigeru-Uehara-some-NSX-R-S-myths-dispelled

That interview was also discussed on the NSX Club of Britain's website, where Kaz, another one of the engineers who developed the NSX, commented: http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.php?9824-NSX-R-Mythbuster-on-Prime

Detlef has very good connections to Honda in Japan and has offered several NSX-R engines, new and used, for sale here on NSX Prime. For example, see here, here, and here. He mentioned the dyno results of another NA2 NSX-R tested in Germany here.

In case you want to check out any part numbers, I believe A.S. Motorsport can look up the part numbers for NSX-Rs. So if an NSX-R owner needs a replacement part, that's what Honda gives them.

In any case, I hope you have as much fun modifying your NSX as I do modifying mine!

 

[Patricio]

If you'd like, you can read what Honda said about the NA2 NSX-R engine when the car was introduced here: http://world.honda.com/NSX/

Years later, NSX Prime member 8400RPM spoke with Shigeru Uehara, the lead engineer who developed the NSX, about the NSX-R. He documented his interview on NSX Prime here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...h-Shigeru-Uehara-some-NSX-R-S-myths-dispelled

That interview was also discussed on the NSX Club of Britain's website, where Kaz, another one of the engineers who developed the NSX, commented: http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.php?9824-NSX-R-Mythbuster-on-Prime

Detlef has very good connections to Honda in Japan and has offered several NSX-R engines, new and used, for sale here on NSX Prime. For example, see here, here, and here. He mentioned the dyno results of another NA2 NSX-R tested in Germany here.

In case you want to check out any part numbers, I believe A.S. Motorsport can look up the part numbers for NSX-Rs. So if an NSX-R owner needs a replacement part, that's what Honda gives them.

In any case, I hope you have as much fun modifying your NSX as I do modifying mine!

it was great to read all that again with direct links at once., thank you for the refresher!

We all know allot of manufacturers cheat on the press cars and limited production cars, Porsche & BMW been caught many times. Like the VW diesel EPA scandal now.... Honda would never admit (especially in an interview) to playing around with anything inside the engine at risk of massive pollution control penalties


-------------------------------------

The crank, pistons, rods, TB pulley, crank pulley, clutch, and flywheel all "blueprinted" ie "touched" in a hand assembled engine... Blueprinting involves removing weight, how much weight is the question. The head or manifold could be ported & polished as well.
You can send your engine to a engine shop and get it back with the same parts numbers and at least 10% more power.

Putting into prospective for anyone doubting how massive of lie the 290hp claim is which equates to a horrendous 9.71 P/W rating yet magical 7:56 nurburing time

The NSX-R should be slower than the Mid engine, newer & respected chassis Caymen S @ 2910lbs and 325hp 8.95 P/W (12.7sec 1/4 mile) (8:04 nurburgring)

Yet the NSX-R is FASTER than a proven chassis factory track car 996 GT3 3050lbs with 381hp with 8.26 P/W (12.3 sec 1/4) (8:03 Nurburgring time)

The 290 HP rating is beyond impossible even if Soichiro Honda came out of the grave and posted it here himself
The NSX-R needs at least 330 hp 8.52 P/W minimum up to 350hp 8.03 P/W to spank both of those well respected chassis by 8-9 seconds at the nurburring or anywhere else that it kicks a bunch of others cars ass with its supposed 9.71 P/W which is a joke


7:52 BMW M4 Horst von Saurma
7:52 Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4
7:54 Mercedes CLK DTM AMG
7:54 Nissan GT-R 2008
7:54 Porsche 911 Turbo 997
7:55 Caterham R500 Superlight
7:55 Ferrari F430 F1
7:56 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06
7:56 Porsche 911 Turbo (996) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto [81] Flying start ("fliegende Runde.")
7:56 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale f1
7:56 Honda NSX-R (NA2)

All the other cars near this time have power to weights ranging from 6.29 to to 8.29.... The NSX-R would not have a chance at 9.71 P/W especially since the NSX was tested years ago well before the nurburgring became the measuring stick and manufactures started manipulating and developing techniques specifically to excel at the nurburgring (BMW M4). along with the advanced tires and computer assisted systems newer cars have.

Either that or Honda has been defying the laws of physics since 2002.

 

[stuntman]

Quit making up things and repeating them to reinforce your beliefs <3

You have to take Nurburgring times with a grain of salt. First off, many of the official times have differing starting methods. Some start from a 'flying lap', while others start from the staging section to the right of the front straight. A few tenths to a second can vary here. Its also important to not compare either of these start/finish points to the official "Bridge to Gantry" laps which use a completely different start/finish sections.

On a normal 2:00 lap track, time can vary by SECONDS depending on weather conditions. That can equate to 8 seconds ore more difference at the Nurburgring. Unless two cars are compared back to back within minutes of each other, it really does not tell you much. This is very true for pretty much all magazine lap time "competitions" as well. But its ammo for bench racers who view the results as gospel...

I don't put too much weight/value on any of it.

0.02

 

[Zoom]

Also the choice of tires, condition of the track, suspension tuning etc. will have a lot of influence over such a long lap. Even raced back to back if one runner made a poor tire choice they'll fall quite a few seconds behind. Having a prototype tuned specifically for that record lap conditions make it a one trick pony, which is the case for true race cars of course, but not applicable to any road-going production car. Also for this specific track, pilot experience means all, see the episode of Top Gear where Sabine Shmitz shows how to go around it in a Ford Transit

The head or manifold could be ported & polished as well.

Just curious, aint that the case for stock NSX engines ?

 

[Patricio]

Quit making up things and repeating them to reinforce your beliefs <3

You have to take Nurburgring times with a grain of salt. First off, many of the official times have differing starting methods. Some start from a 'flying lap', while others start from the staging section to the right of the front straight. A few tenths to a second can vary here. Its also important to not compare either of these start/finish points to the official "Bridge to Gantry" laps which use a completely different start/finish sections.

On a normal 2:00 lap track, time can vary by SECONDS depending on weather conditions. That can equate to 8 seconds ore more difference at the Nurburgring. Unless two cars are compared back to back within minutes of each other, it really does not tell you much. This is very true for pretty much all magazine lap time "competitions" as well. But its ammo for bench racers who view the results as gospel...

I don't put too much weight/value on any of it.

0.02

LOL..... im really not trying to...

As I said the only thing I can hang my hat on is the market desirability..... I doubt if NSX-R was not as fast as is claimed to be people would not be paying 100k more than old GT-R's with gobs of power. and reviewers would rip it apart. 150k is allot of money

Ill send you my nurburgring video later with my girl wearing helmet cam, I need to figure out how compress the whole thing small enough to send.
Im a little retarded when it comes to video posting off the go-pro,
and i need to edit the crap i was talking about the whole time lol...

It was fun I rented a suzuki swift turbo track car, stripped, roll caged, ohlins, brembos, under 2000lbs and 190hp... kept up with a brand new M3 and this was summer of 2014 last year... But he likely did not know what he was doing.

The craziest part was the weather the track covers so many square miles and is so damn long and elevation changes that each lap you do the weather is different in different spots.
the turns you get comfortable with on the last lap and and start pushing it and all of sudden you come to the next braking zone and that i last passed dry and now it soaking wet and your flying... my heart sinks, my rear tightens and I hold on.... you see the weather clearing up and start pushing again and then bam, pouring rain again in middle of a apex. scary shit.

 

[stuntman]

And:

Putting into prospective for anyone doubting how massive of lie the 290hp claim is which equates to a horrendous 9.71 P/W rating yet magical 7:56 nurburing time

The NSX-R should be slower than the Mid engine, newer & respected chassis Caymen S @ 2910lbs and 325hp 8.95 P/W (12.7sec 1/4 mile) (8:04 nurburgring)

Yet the NSX-R is FASTER than a proven chassis factory track car 996 GT3 3050lbs with 381hp with 8.26 P/W (12.3 sec 1/4) (8:03 Nurburgring time)

You're quite one-dimensional by focusing just on P/W ratio. You don't seem to take into consideration many other seriously important factors from aero, gearing, tire size, and especially the tire model itself.

The Cayman comes with everything from Michelin PS2s to Goodyear f1 asymmetric, Pirelli P-zeros, Conti 3s, etc... all of which are not in the same league as Honda's "cheater" tires. But to be fair, there are many new tires that are probably quite a bit better, including the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 which allowed a 306hp CIVIC to post a faster lap time than the NSX-R.

The 290 HP rating is beyond impossible even if Soichiro Honda came out of the grave and posted it here himself
The NSX-R needs at least 330 hp 8.52 P/W minimum up to 350hp 8.03 P/W to spank both of those well respected chassis by 8-9 seconds at the nurburring or anywhere else that it kicks a bunch of others cars ass with its supposed 9.71 P/W which is a joke

7:52 BMW M4 Horst von Saurma
7:52 Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4
7:54 Mercedes CLK DTM AMG
7:54 Nissan GT-R 2008
7:54 Porsche 911 Turbo 997
7:55 Caterham R500 Superlight
7:55 Ferrari F430 F1
7:56 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06
7:56 Porsche 911 Turbo (996) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto [81] Flying start ("fliegende Runde.")
7:56 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale f1
7:56 Honda NSX-R (NA2)

All the other cars near this time have power to weights ranging from 6.29 to to 8.29.... The NSX-R would not have a chance at 9.71 P/W especially since the NSX was tested years ago well before the nurburgring became the measuring stick and manufactures started manipulating and developing techniques specifically to excel at the nurburgring (BMW M4). along with the advanced tires and computer assisted systems newer cars have.

Either that or Honda has been defying the laws of physics since 2002.

290-310ish hp is easily believable with the right set of tires, great gearing, and great aero. Quit focusing on just P/W and look at the whole picture. Your car will lose SECONDS by putting 'summer' tires on it, and it will be seconds faster with a set of Hoosier R7s. It will also improve by seconds with a splitter and big wing. All with the same P/W ratio.

 

[Patricio]

And:


You're quite one-dimensional by focusing just on P/W ratio. You don't seem to take into consideration many other seriously important factors from aero, gearing, tire size, and especially the tire model itself.

The Cayman comes with everything from Michelin PS2s to Goodyear f1 asymmetric, Pirelli P-zeros, Conti 3s, etc... all of which are not in the same league as Honda's "cheater" tires. But to be fair, there are many new tires that are probably quite a bit better, including the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 which allowed a 306hp CIVIC to post a faster lap time than the NSX-R.


290-310ish hp is easily believable with the right set of tires, great gearing, and great aero. Quit focusing on just P/W and look at the whole picture. Your car will lose SECONDS by putting 'summer' tires on it, and it will be seconds faster with a set of Hoosier R7s. It will also improve by seconds with a splitter and big wing. All with the same P/W ratio.

Yes you got me there... I was making an assumption that whomever is out their making a record pass for that model car is likely doing anything and everything that will make them faster, i did mention the newer cars are using more advanced tires and likely areo and computer assisted tires, that where not even available 13 years ago for the NSX-R. I dont understand any assumption the NSX-R would have better areo and tires back then. and honda is not the most desperate company to prove themselves at the nurburgring. (at least not back then) (nowadays with civic yes)

as far as being one dimensional you are also assuming every one else is being honest except the NSX-R,
the civic that tested had seats removed and roll cage, so automatically nothing can be trusted there knowing how desperate manufacturers are to make a good ring number nowadays and there no regulating body. Porcshe & BMW is well known for this... So the way I look at it is everyone is cheating, therefore its a level playing field of cheaters

im willing to bet the cayman had cheater tires, Im willing to bet every single car on the nurburing list was cheating in one way or another the best it could.

FWIW various sites have confirmed and accepted that NSX-R run... not sure what that means but I do know many "haters" on sites have tried to argue it and in end its been accepted as legitimate (for sake of start and finish standards i think) and its recorded and stated as rain on track. so should we assume the fastest Ferrari challenge and C5 the CLKDTM was on street tires and had a disadvantage? Im confused

I really do not just look at P/W but it generally a decent start and I thought it was sufficient t prove it cant be the 290 rating, just to prove at least honda must have had a reason to not disclose its true power rating. that's what I was focusing on, why would they not disclose? that leads me to believe they cheated likley for EPA reasons, such an already generally seen an under-powered car would benefit massively from a 310hp rating, mybe sell allot more cars.... why on earth would honda not disclose that is my question?

 

[JD Cross]

Patricio, this is a bit off topic but do I understand you've weighed your NSX and it comes in at just over 2500 lbs?

 

[Zoom]

I dont understand any assumption the NSX-R would have better areo and tires back then.

But it did - see another post where people discuss aero, actual figures for the stock NSX-R are excellent compared to most of the competition. Where most of the competitors (in stock form) had some kind of lift the NSX had rather good downforce front & back. Changes a lot how fast and confident you can be on such a fast and dangerous track...
Also at the time Honda were one of the few (along with Lotus for instance) to sell actual R/semi slick tires on their production cars. This gave them an edge over the competition which was still using normal tread tires.

im willing to bet the cayman had cheater tires, Im willing to bet every single car on the nurburing list was cheating in one way or another the best it could.

I believe everyone is using the best of their commercial offering ? Also no exterior mods (aero..) otherwise that would be a bit too obvious.

 

[stuntman]

Yes you got me there... I was making an assumption that whomever is out their making a record pass for that model car is likely doing anything and everything that will make them faster, i did mention the newer cars are using more advanced tires and likely areo and computer assisted tires, that where not even available 13 years ago for the NSX-R. I dont understand any assumption the NSX-R would have better areo and tires back then. and honda is not the most desperate company to prove themselves at the nurburgring. (at least not back then) (nowadays with civic yes)

as far as being one dimensional you are also assuming every one else is being honest except the NSX-R,
the civic that tested had seats removed and roll cage, so automatically nothing can be trusted there knowing how desperate manufacturers are to make a good ring number nowadays and there no regulating body. Porcshe & BMW is well known for this... So the way I look at it is everyone is cheating, therefore its a level playing field of cheaters

im willing to bet the cayman had cheater tires, Im willing to bet every single car on the nurburing list was cheating in one way or another the best it could. FWIW various sites have confirmed and accepted that NSX-R run... not sure what that means but I do know many other sites have tried to argue it and in end its been accepted as legitimate. (for sake of start and finish standards i think)

I really do not just look at P/W but it generally a decent start and I thought it was sufficient t prove it cant be the 290 rating, just to prove at least honda must have had a reason to not disclose its true power rating. that's what I was focusing on, why would they not disclose? that leads me to believe they cheated likley for EPA reasons, such an already generally seen an under-powered car would benefit massively from a 310hp rating, mybe sell allot more cars.... why on earth would honda not disclose that is my question?

Generally manufacutrers are honest and use the OEM tires and weight of the vehicle. Although to varying degrees i'm sure a bit is 'fudged' or 'cheated' by everyone, these guys are not "doing anything and everything that will make them faster", they are reasonably within the box of the actual car.

If the Cayman S was running any of the tires I listed, the tire is inferior to the bespoke "cheater" tire that Bridgestone made for the NSX-R -which is probably closer to a Pilot Sport Cup 2 than the Cayman's tires. Combined with better aero and more downforce (the NSX-R has better aero than the cayman), it's not hard to believe it was quicker even with 290-310ish hp.

All official runs by manufacturers need safety equipment like racing seats, harnesses, cages, etc... which was not mandated back when the NSX-R ran its time. Interior components are removed to have a representative vehicle weight to offset the additional weight of the safety equipment.

If you've ever driven a spec-miata or been around one, they are typically faster than many exotics due to their light weight, and sticky tires. The NSX-R is likewise, light weight, under-powered but has great aero and sticky tires. It's not hard to believe its a quick car and no it does not need 345hp to perform as well as it does, most of its performance is due to its aero and tire advantage, so it's easy to believe its in the 290-310hp window.

Not that I want to back up your conspiracy theories that support a 345hp NSX-R, but Honda stated the NSX-R had 280ps just like Nissan did with the GTR, which typically puts down mid-low 300whp for high 300s at the crank. I agree the NSX-R makes more than 280PS, but I don't think it's as high as you think it is, and definitely not all of the port/polish, high compression nonsense that you're making up and trying to convince yourself of.

I really need to stop getting sucked into this, lol.

 

[Patricio]

Patricio, this is a bit off topic but do I understand you've weighed your NSX and it comes in at just over 2500 lbs?

See the pic this was few months ago about was around 2530 (scale works in 20lb increments) I double checked at another scale at that time.
I have done more mods since then. and shows the full interior.
billy was in the car two weeks ago and can verify its full interior all glass and A/C ect.
I may have broke under 2500 by now by my calculations weighing every single item that has come off the car since last weight.


ill stop by the scale again in a few days, its not far from home. see if i can get a 2500 slip that would mean its 2499 or better Also will be corner balancing soon but am waiting to finish few more weight reduction items and make final decision, on turbo, J35, NA2 engine swap, or Build the 3.0, I really cant decide... thus my drive to keep reducing weight

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/NSX%20weight%20slip%20june%202015%202530lbs.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/NSX%20weight%20slip%20june%202015%202530lbs.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo NSX weight slip june 2015 2530lbs.jpg"/></a>

- - - Updated - - -

I really need to stop getting sucked into this, lol.

Fine. ..
Maybe I drank the cool-aid while staring at the aryton senna poster on the wall lol....

 

[greenberet]

7:52 BMW M4 Horst von Saurma
7:56 Honda NSX-R (NA2)

In order to compare apples to apples, it would be good to compare Horst von Saurma's lap times in various sports cars to HIS lap time in an NSX-R. His best effort in the NA2 Type-R was 8:09 (see Sport Auto issue 8/2002), a time he also achieved with cars such as an Audi RS4 in 2006, an Audi TT RS Coupe in 2013, and a Mercedes A45 AMG in 2014. The 7:56 time was by a different (better?) driver.

 

[Patricio]

In order to compare apples to apples, it would be good to compare Horst von Saurma's lap times in various sports cars to HIS lap time in an NSX-R. His best effort in the NA2 Type-R was 8:09 (see Sport Auto issue 8/2002), a time he also achieved with cars such as an Audi RS4 in 2006, an Audi TT RS Coupe in 2013, and a Mercedes A45 AMG in 2014. The 7:56 time was by a different (better?) driver.

hes a German.......
that gets paid by German auto companies.

Horst was also 10 seconds slower in the GTR than the official time.... . .. we are talking the heart land of the BMW's and VW, Audi, basically evrything anti honda, for god sakes the JDM/german fanboys cant even get along here on the boards...

i had the pleasure of having a long conversation few months ago with two German automotive engineers that live and work in germany but where in miami on vacation.. They own a large manufacturing company that actually make assembly line machinery for automotive companies BMW and mercedes ect... I for the life of me could not believe they did not know what an NSX or NSX-R was and we spent hours talking. I showed pictures, video, data, facts.. they never heard of it... and denied anything and everything i told thema bout it and they for sure had never seen an NSX and knew nothing about it.. was the strangest thing ever... We did although share allot of LOVE for the M3's and BMW since I'm a long time M3 owner... I've had 4-5 of them and 2 BMW x5 4.6is and 4.8is (the rare fast ones before the turbo M).... the M3 is even part of my email address. Honda does not sell well in Germany from what they told me and they never will.

Without trying to offend anyone, I'm European born as well and will attest the Germans will not in any way shape or form properly present anything Japanese,

I love his articles and hes an amazing driver but when it comes to non-German cars especially one as threatening as the NSX-R to compared to the beloved 911.....
I take his info and wipe my a**.