NSX or E46 M3?

[NSXY]

SJJ28,

Yes, M3's may be available in all colors, but that doesn't mean they exist in all colors. In fact, here in CA most M3's have the more brilliant colors one might expect to see on a performance car, and most are bright yellow, red, blue and the like. They're everywhere. Yet, I've not seen a 2002 M3 in white.

And, yes, if you accept the fact that an M3 is more practical than the NSX and should be box-like in shape to accomplish this, and I do, then you might also feel that the M3 body is cool looking, which I do, compared with many other cars.

The NSX is not my only car, I have four, and they each have completely different functions. I like BMW's, but the M3 interior looks cheap to me. For example, the giant cup holder assembly is just sitting there over the center console taking up space, looking back at you, whether you need them or not, and there's no way to cover or stow them. I think that's tacky. Don't get me wrong, I like BMW's. I'm soon buying a BMW 530i as my "regular performance sedan," because it goes well, handles well, gets excellent gas mileage, comfortably carries several people (way bigger and wider seats than M3 and more leg room), and is considerably more luxurious inside than the M3. And the 530i costs the same or less than the M3.

So as my "performance car," I want my NSX, not an M3.

------------------
NSXY
95 NSX-T, 5 sp, Red/Tan, Tubi exhaust, Dali street anti-sway bars, Dunlop SP9000s

(edited 25 March 2002).]

[This message has been edited by NSXY (edited 25 March 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSXY:
you might also feel that the M3 body is cool looking, which I do, compared with many other cars.

Or, you might not. I don't. The M3 is a nice car - even a great car - in many ways, but IMHO looks is not one of them.

 

[mlambert890]

Originally posted by Ketzer:
Some of you may have seen my cross post of the same question in the DTM Power forums (if not, you're not missing anything };-) ), .

Since you mentioned it, I went to take a look at that thread. Long story short, I'm sorry I did. I actually composed a lengthly reply, but thought the better of it.

All one has to do is read those narrow-minded, prejudiced, ignorant comments and they will know all they need to about those posters.

I wonder if people actually stop and think about how they are representing themselves before they post. Clearly not, I guess.

Those guys seem to represent all the negative stereotypes about BMW ownership. Arrogant, ill-informed, bigots who think that ownership of 1 of the 1 billion BMW 3 series cars on the road somehow elevates them above their fellow man... Pathetic... Not to mention that the average age there seems to be about 16. I wonder if mom and dad realize what their gift did to juniors attitude. When my kid is 16, he's getting a nice, practical, boring, no attitude car.

[This message has been edited by spookyp (edited 25 March 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by spookyp:
Those guys seem to represent all the negative stereotypes about BMW ownership.

It's interesting how different forums can be dominated by one type of person or another. For example, I'm a member of BMW CCA; I instruct and their track events and participate in other club activities (even though I don't own a BMW). In person, I have found the BMW owner group to be extremely friendly, with diverse demographics (in age and ethnicity if not necessarily income). But I was on the BMW e-mail list a few years ago, and found that the participants there were narrow-minded and obnoxious, particularly one of their chapter officers from New Jersey. I guess electronic communication has the potential to bring out the worst in people.

 

[8000RPM]

Originally posted by spookyp:
the average age there seems to be about 16. I wonder if mom and dad realize what their gift did to juniors attitude.

Interesting you should mention this. Several years ago when I first got my M3 I used to frequent those BMW M3 boards. Initially, it was a good community with mature enthusiasts who tracked their cars. For one reason or another, the average age and associated maturity seemed to decline steadily over the years on these boards.

As a result I stopped visiting those message boards about 2 years ago even though I still own my M3 today.

 

[ak]

I wondered about the same and here are my conclusions.(I have '94)

1. Speed - M3
2. Handling - M3
3. Looks - NSX
4. Price - NSX
5. Reliability - M3 has warranty but NSX is ok.
6. Everyday drivability - I have a winter beater so it really didn't matter.

1 and 2, M3 edges but probably by small margin.

 

[mlambert890]

Actually, a 3.2L NSX definitely edges the BMW in quickness (0-60, 1/4) and speed (M3 is top end limited to 155).

I'm surprised to see people express that the M3 handles better than the NSX. No automotive journal I've seen consistently supports this assertion.

The NSX has routinely reached the top of every handling showdown in recent memory. The M3 is up there as well, but I haven't seen it consistently beating the NSX.

 

[Number9]

Originally posted by spookyp:
Actually, a 3.2L NSX definitely edges the BMW in quickness (0-60, 1/4) and speed (M3 is top end limited to 155).

I'm surprised to see people express that the M3 handles better than the NSX. No automotive journal I've seen consistently supports this assertion.

The NSX has routinely reached the top of every handling showdown in recent memory. The M3 is up there as well, but I haven't seen it consistently beating the NSX.

This is complicated by the fact that we're apparently mixing M3s (E36 & E46) and NSXs (pre-97 and post w/coupe, Z & T variants). I've had the good fortune to have driven them all (except for a non-Zanardi 97+ coupe), though I've only really beat on my own specimens. My empirical impressions (stock for stock) is that the old E36 M3s with 235/40 all around handled very well and the later models with staggered rubber understeered rather a lot, just like the new E46. The pre-97 NSXen were definitely slower than the E46 M3, but faster than the E36. The NSX-Ts were soft and squishy, so whatever their handling limits, they didn't feel great to me. The Z-NSX is very firm, handles really great, has only moderate understeer, but has a slow steering ratio (like all domestic NSXen) that makes it rather annoying on my local mountain roads (Mt. Hamilton traversing both sides, Santa Cruz Mountains, etc.). So they're all fine cars, you just need to optimize the characteristics of the car to meet your own needs. To the person who started the thread, since you've already got a beater, I suggest a 97+ coupe, whether Zanardi or otherwise.

--twc

99 NSX-Z SC (360 RWHP)
95 Dinan M3 SC (290 RWHP)
95 BMW M3 (Bone Stock)
02 BMW M3 SMG (on order - cheapest paddle shifter)

[This message has been edited by Number9 (edited 27 March 2002).]

 

[8000RPM]

Originally posted by spookyp:

The NSX has routinely reached the top of every handling showdown in recent memory.

Few years ago C&D did a handling comparison test ("Best Handling Cars over $30k"). The E36 M3 finished in 1st place, followed by the F355, and then the NSX. Other cars in the test included the C5, Supra, Viper, 993, and Boxter.

 

[ak]

Originally posted by spookyp:
Actually, a 3.2L NSX definitely edges the BMW in quickness (0-60, 1/4) and speed (M3 is top end limited to 155).

I'm surprised to see people express that the M3 handles better than the NSX. No automotive journal I've seen consistently supports this assertion.

The NSX has routinely reached the top of every handling showdown in recent memory. The M3 is up there as well, but I haven't seen it consistently beating the NSX.

I was comparing it to '91-94, I wouldn't doubt that '97 is as fast or faster. As for handling, I was just basing it off of all the auto mag comparisons and numbers such as skidpad. I'm sure there'd be different opinions but I couldn't find out for myself(since it was before M3 came out) so I jsut based it off of the books.

 

[ck]

Originally posted by spookyp:
Since you mentioned it, I went to take a look at that thread. Long story short, I'm sorry I did. I actually composed a lengthly reply, but thought the better of it.

All one has to do is read those narrow-minded, prejudiced, ignorant comments and they will know all they need to about those posters.

I wonder if people actually stop and think about how they are representing themselves before they post. Clearly not, I guess.

Those guys seem to represent all the negative stereotypes about BMW ownership. Arrogant, ill-informed, bigots who think that ownership of 1 of the 1 billion BMW 3 series cars on the road somehow elevates them above their fellow man... Pathetic... Not to mention that the average age there seems to be about 16. I wonder if mom and dad realize what their gift did to juniors attitude. When my kid is 16, he's getting a nice, practical, boring, no attitude car.

[This message has been edited by spookyp (edited 25 March 2002).]

Since YOU mentioned it, I went and made the same mistake. You should check out the earlier thread about C5 vs. NSX. They all agree hands down on the NSX over the C5. Citing that the C5 is way too common and every oldman drives one everywhere. As if there weren't just as many or way more e36 and e46 BMW's around. Bunch of hypocrites. I understand it is a BMW forum, but I don't understand how people who can't appreciate other marques call themselves "enthusiasts". I also had no idea how BMW owners represent themselves in forums.

 

[Number9]

Originally posted by ck:
Bunch of hypocrites. I understand it is a BMW forum, but I don't understand how people who can't appreciate other marques call themselves "enthusiasts". I also had no idea how BMW owners represent themselves in forums.

So I'm biased, but I think the BMW owners on this forum represent themselves quite well as car "enthusiasts." The demographics of the forum dictate the quality of the discussion - not the quality of the car.

 

[mlambert890]

Originally posted by 8000RPM:
Few years ago C&D did a handling comparison test ("Best Handling Cars over $30k"). The E36 M3 finished in 1st place, followed by the F355, and then the NSX. Other cars in the test included the C5, Supra, Viper, 993, and Boxter.

True enough, but then there is Car Magazine from 96 which placed the NSX above the BMW M3. The competition was far loftier as well (included the JDM heavyweights and the Elise) and the NSX still came in 4th.

My point was that you will not find the M3 consistently beating the NSX in the press. To me, you can say "The M3 definitely outhandles the Camaro", but you can't say "The M3 definitely outhandles the NSX". It's a close call at best.

I'm a BMW owner also, btw, and I was definitely disgusted by those guys on DTM...

[This message has been edited by spookyp (edited 26 March 2002).]

 

[ck]

Originally posted by Number9:
So I'm biased, but I think the BMW owners on this forum represent themselves quite well as car "enthusiasts." The demographics of the forum dictate the quality of the discussion - not the quality of the car. I agree with you 100% that the quality of the people is what determines the quality of discussion, not the quality of the cars.

Your right about the demographics of the forum. I was just talking about the people on the forums, who may or may not even be owners as we all know how that can happen.

I have owned several BMW's and currently have one as well and am a big fan of the M cars. I also have met many other BMW owners and none were like these. It may just be that the forums tend to bring out the worst in people because they can hide behind a monitor.



[This message has been edited by ck (edited 26 March 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

While everything you guys are saying is true, there is one additional point about the forums that is worth mentioning. Yes, the discussions here seem more mature than on many other boards, and demographics may indeed play a role in that. But Lud also deserves a HUGE amount of credit for keeping the discussion on these forums at a mature and respectful level. Just like on the other boards, we have a few personalities here who are only interested in spewing flames and insults instead of providing information and helping folks here. The difference is that Lud is willing to step in and delete those flames when they arise, to keep the information flowing without the distrations. I think he deserves our recognition for his contributions to making this the best automotive forum on the Internet. He is as responsible as all of us put together for making NSXprime as good as it is.

 

[mlambert890]

Very true!

/salute Lud

 

[NSX2F1]

Originally posted by 8000RPM:
Few years ago C&D did a handling comparison test ("Best Handling Cars over $30k"). The E36 M3 finished in 1st place, followed by the F355, and then the NSX. Other cars in the test included the C5, Supra, Viper, 993, and Boxter.

Yeah, but they might as well change the magazine name to BMW&Driver, since no matter what, BMW always wins. I found their older editors to be a bunch of Euro badge snobs with prejudice and bigotry towards non-European marques. So I don't really care for what they say.

Don't get me wrong, BMWs are nice cars, I used to own them to. But these magazine guys seems to give them more credits than what they are.

 

[pstoppani]

Many of us BMW M3 enthusiasts will tell you to stay as far a way from the DTM Power forums as you possibly can. They are indeed very young and immature. I can say that they do not represent the majority. If you go to a CCA event, there are virtually no DTM Power folks there. I'm not even sure if they know that the CCA exists!

Regarding the C&D handling article, if you read it carefully you'll see that their definition of a great handling car is one that handles very well on imperfect roads. It makes sense that the M3 won because it has the softest suspension of all the cars. It stays glued better under their test conditions.

If you change the criteria to roadcourse handling, the M3 would not have scored nearly as well.

I love my M3, but I would never think that it actually handles better than an NSX or many of the other cars in that article under track conditions.

Anyway, my advice echos the majority, get the M3 if you can only have one car. Otherwise, get the NSX and nice Civic and you'll be in heaven.


------------------
Pete

99 Dinan Supercharged M3
98 Turbo VR6 4motion New Beetle

 

[Number9]

Originally posted by pstoppani:
Regarding the C&D handling article, if you read it carefully you'll see that their definition of a great handling car is one that handles very well on imperfect roads. It makes sense that the M3 won because it has the softest suspension of all the cars. It stays glued better under their test conditions.

If you change the criteria to roadcourse handling, the M3 would not have scored nearly as well.

Uhm, this isn't factually correct. The bumpy skidpad was just one of the criteria and the M3 did among the worst. The C&D folks also tested at Nelson Ledges (i.e., road course) and the M3 lapped faster than the NSX. Since this is the subject of many a holy war (and to deflect flames) I'm just the messenger...

--twc

99 NSX-Z SC (360 RWHP)
95 Dinan M3 SC (290 RWHP)
95 BMW M3 (Bone Stock)
02 BMW M3 SMG (on order - cheapest paddle shifter)

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Number9:
Uhm, this isn't factually correct. The bumpy skidpad was just one of the criteria and the M3 did among the worst. The C&D folks also tested at Nelson Ledges (i.e., road course) and the M3 lapped faster than the NSX.

Those of us who have been there know that the surface of the pavement at Nelson Ledges is probably far more bumpy than the bumpy skidpad or the rough roads they may have used.

 

[cojones]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I guess electronic communication has the potential to bring out the worst in people.

Amen... I've personally met several participants on this, and other, NSX e-forums who are the most friendly, gracious and personable folks in-person, but can sometimes measure up short once under the guise of their electronic avatars

This observation seems to transcend makes or marque ownership, or even other less-obscure demographic boundaries.

#############

Keeping on-topic, I think both the M3 and NSX make for fine choices... ultimately the M3 is probably more general-purpose, and a more cost-effective TRACK platform (for most purposes), but that's kinda the point of the mid-engined low-slung exotic that the NSX is.

Having recently taken a ride in a friend's E46 M3 with SMG-II tranny, I truly hope Acura/Honda can match serve.

 

[BladesNSX]

NSXtasy is so right. Most guys assume that having the NSX is an automatic chic magnet. This couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe if I was driving in some back cournty area where seeing such a car is extremely rare then I may get such attention. Here in Miami however I will get more Female attention if I drive a Volks with a big dog in the passenger seat. As for the original post: Ketzer you know you want an NSX; why else would you go to an NSX site for advice? You just need a little motivation. I think of no better motivation than to just drive an NSX. If I understand just how much that M3 costs, you could get a used 97+ NSX. I believe if you drive one you will be sold

.

good luck.