NSX Gasoline

[nsxtasy]

If I'm not mistaken, Europe uses a different measurement of octane on its pumps than here in North America. Here, we use the (RON+MON)/2 formula, also known as the "antiknock index". You can read more about octane ratings in Part 3 of the gasoline FAQ for which Lud previously posted a link in this topic.

Gas stations in North America typically carry regular gas (87 octane), mid-grade gas (89 octane), and premium gas (93 octane, although California limits this to 91 octane, and one East Coast brand carries 94 octane). High-altitude areas, such as Denver, carry lower octane ratings because that is all that is needed due to the thinner air at those altitudes.

 

[Joel]

If gas is gas, then let's talk additives. Do these "detergents" really clean the engine or is this just a marketing ploy? Do they affect performance at all? What's wrong with putting just plain ole' gas in the tank (I'm sure these additives are pretty recent and that older cars, say in the 30's or 40's, didn't have them)?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Additives / Marketing

If gas is gas, then let's talk additives. Do these "detergents" really clean the engine or is this just a marketing ploy? Do they affect performance at all? What's wrong with putting just plain ole' gas in the tank (I'm sure these additives are pretty recent and that older cars, say in the 30's or 40's, didn't have them)?

The detergents do work, because the oil companies must prove their effectiveness to the US Attorney General's office, before a patent is granted. Therefore, NO it is not a marketing ploy. Gimme a break. There is no deleterious affect on performance, by the additives. What do you mean by "just plain ole' gas"? Incorrect - additives have been around for over twenty years. But they didn't exist sixty or sevety years ago. You know why? The EPA is not that old.

PS - you mean ol' not ole' which is a Spanish term.

 

[AKUDOU]

Re: Additives / Marketing

If gas is gas, then let's talk additives. Do these "detergents" really clean the engine or is this just a marketing ploy? Do they affect performance at all? What's wrong with putting just plain ole' gas in the tank (I'm sure these additives are pretty recent and that older cars, say in the 30's or 40's, didn't have them)?

The detergents do work, because the oil companies must prove their effectiveness to the US Attorney General's office, before a patent is granted. Therefore, NO it is not a marketing ploy. Gimme a break. There is no deleterious affect on performance, by the additives. What do you mean by "just plain ole' gas"? Incorrect - additives have been around for over twenty years. But they didn't exist sixty or sevety years ago. You know why? The EPA is not that old.

PS - you mean ol' not ole' which is a Spanish term.

As the number one selling gasoline in America, it is a very exciting time for the Shell brand. The new Shell fuels campaign launches June 30 and is centered around the message - "Get better mileage".

Facts you should know:
- The new formulation is in all three grades of Shell gasoline
- It starts with the first tank
- Less Friction means more miles
- Proven in Shell tests using standard EPA procedures

Oval shaped, rubberized key tag. Shines a bright red light. Replaceable batteries .

 

[Dtrigg]

Urbanpiolet has it right. Chevron gas is the best. For example, all of the big three bring Chevron gas up from a Chevron Kentucy refiner to do their EPA testing. If you go to a Chevron station, they have brochures that compare their gas to the competition, for Techron additive, and valve deposits, before and after.

Also, octain levels are also geographical measurement. For example California supreme may be 91 octaine while Denver may be a 93 for supreme. The difference is the alltitude.

 

[AKUDOU]

Sounds like an urban legend... Water and gasoline don't mix.

Speaking of the fact that they don't mix, and that water is heavier than gas... Back in the old days when stations used suction pumps, the inlet tube was a few inches off the bottom of the tank and some stations would put water in the bottom of the tank instead of filling it with gas that they would effectively never sell. I'm talking several decades ago.

This is why people used to say not to get gas when the truck was filling the in-ground tanks - some of the water might be stirred up and pulled into the pump inlet if the station owner had put too much water down there. If you let it sit for a few minutes all the water would settle back to the bottom, just like oil-and-vinegar salad dressing settles out with the oil on top and vinegar on bottom a few minutes after you shake it up.

These days they use use pressure from submersible pumps instead of suction, and the inlet is right down at the bottom of the tank, so people don't put water in the tanks. Many (most?) of the pumps use filters that have a valve that will stop the flow if they pick up water.

It's also possible that a long time ago some unscrupulous dealers would "water down" their high-octane fuel with low-octane, though obviously that does not actually mean putting water in it. But the government is pretty active with testing these days and the penalties are strong enough that I think it is probably extremely rare that this happens on purpose anymore.

Lud you are correct. Comingling gas on the first offence has a stiff fine of 1000$ in Ky and is regulated by the agriculture department they also test scaners and meters in the gasoline dispensers.

 

[AKUDOU]

Re: Best Gas

If I recall correctly, there was an article in the NYTimes or Wall Street (i think NYT though) about the best gas on the market. For several years now, they have all said that Cheveron is the best! Hands Down!

Now understand that from what I understand, all gas is the same when it is refined from oil but what makes all the brands different is the additives they use; ie Techron at Chevron.

Just what I understand. Maybe wrong but it sounds good right?

What is Techron and where do you get this info.

 

[AKUDOU]

Urbanpiolet has it right. Chevron gas is the best. For example, all of the big three bring Chevron gas up from a Chevron Kentucy refiner to do their EPA testing. If you go to a Chevron station, they have brochures that compare their gas to the competition, for Techron additive, and valve deposits, before and after.

Also, octain levels are also geographical measurement. For example California supreme may be 91 octaine while Denver may be a 93 for supreme. The difference is the alltitude.

This Brand is kicking Chevrons ass.

 

[nsxtasy]

octain levels are also geographical measurement. For example California supreme may be 91 octaine while Denver may be a 93 for supreme. The difference is the alltitude.

You've got it backwards. As I already stated above, Denver uses lower octane than lower-altitude areas. Premium in Denver ranges from 89 to 91 octane (not "octain"). In most of the rest of the country that is not at a high altitude (not "alltitude"), premium is usually 93 octane, with California being an exception, and only recently.

 

[Joel]

Does anybody know WHY Cali is getting the short end of the stick with only 91 octane? Our streets are the most congested in the nation and we need to demand higher octane!

 

[Yellow Rose]

CARB

Our streets are the most congested in the nation and we need to demand higher octane!

I'll have to dig out my reaction chemistry textbook, but I think higher octane results in a bit more undesirable components in the exhaust gas. If so, you answered your own question. You can thank CARB for the octane limitation in your state.

Side note.....tree huggers in that state have the most strict offshore production requirements in the country - as in ZERO new offshore platforms in about the past fifteen years - yet cry about local gasoline prices because crude oil has to be imported to the refineries. HELLO!! Sure, there is oil production near Bakersfield, but just try to lay an oil pipeline to Wilmington. The permitting process is a nightmare.

 

[hlweyl]

Re: Re: NSX Gasoline

Actually, the recommended fuel specified in the owner's manual is 91 octane or better. (It also notes that you can use octane lower than that, but performance will be degraded while doing so.)

Quick question regarding this: do the 3.2 litre engine also recommend 91 octane as the minimum requirement? I just purchased a 97' and the owner did not have the owner's manual with him.

I heard on the show "Motorweek" that you should always stick to the minimum requirement of octane because fuel with higher octane ratings take longer to burn in the combustion chambers and that is not always good for the performance.

Anyone care to agree or disagree with that statement?

 

[nsxtasy]

Re: Re: Re: NSX Gasoline

Quick question regarding this: do the 3.2 litre engine also recommend 91 octane as the minimum requirement?

Yes.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

I use BP/Amoco exclusively. I can't believe noone else mentions them in this thread. Before the merger, Amoco took their refinery process for their "ultimate" premium gasoline to a completely clear state. I figure this is a good thing. Less particles to deposit on my valves etc. They since merged with BP another huge petrol co. in Europe with a long racing sponsorship history I am happy with their product. I do use Mobil 1 oil all the time, and their gas as a backup.

 

[nsxtasy]

I can't believe noone else mentions them in this thread.

Because BP/Amoco (and particularly the Amoco predecessor) is much bigger in the Midwest, not in the West where people posting about Chevron are from. (Of course, don't look for Chevron anywhere around the Midwest, because you won't find it.)

At one time, many of these companies were all one company, Standard Oil, run by the Rockefellers. They broke up the monopoly, creating separate companies with marketing areas defined largely on the basis of geography: Standard of California (Chevron), Standard of Indiana (Amoco), Standard of New Jersey (Esso/Exxon), etc. Now they're all acquiring each other all over again, with Exxon-Mobil, BP/Amoco, Shell/Texaco, etc.

 

[NSX2play]

Gas stations in North America typically carry regular gas (87 octane), mid-grade gas (89 octane), and premium gas (93 octane, although California limits this to 91 octane, and one East Coast brand carries 94 octane).

In my part of North America, Chevron pumps 87, 89, 91 and 94 octane gas. 'BC' may stand for 'British California' but at least we get the good gas!

While I could run 91 in my NSX, I pay the extra few cents per litre and get the 'insurance' of extra octane. It may not make any difference in performance, but it gives me one less thing to worry about on my car.

 

[nsx4fun]

I've always heard they used pigs to separate the batches that get run through pipelines. Not a real pig of course, but basically something shaped like a barrel to keep one batch from mixing with the batch before & after it. Doing a little research I found this. I guess not all batches are separated by pigs and this also discusses mixed material that needs reprocessing. Check out

http://www.landtech.org/howpipelineswork.htm

 

[Dtrigg]

You've got it backwards. As I already stated above, Denver uses lower octane than lower-altitude areas. Premium in Denver ranges from 89 to 91 octane (not "octain"). In most of the rest of the country that is not at a high altitude (not "alltitude"), premium is usually 93 octane, with California being an exception, and only recently.

According to the Chevron chemist I spoke to, the octane in Denver is higher than in California. In adition, octane levels are also adjusted on seasonal levels. But as usual, you know more than anyone. And you would never make a typing mistake.

 

[nsxtasy]

According to the Chevron chemist I spoke to, the octane in Denver is higher than in California.

Wrong. Higher altitude areas have lower octane, not higher octane. It is virtually impossible to find 93 octane in Denver, even though you can find it virtually everywhere at lower altitudes (including, until recently, California). California recently changed (see above) so that its premium gas is the same octane, 91, as Denver. Regular gas in Denver is 85 octane, which is less than the 87 octane that is sold throughout the rest of the country, including California. Mid-grade gas in Denver is 87 octane, which is less than the 88.5 sold in California and the 89 sold in the rest of the country. You can read more about why here. I'm sure our Colorado members would be happy to confirm that - along with describing the other effects of high-altitude driving. (The thin air reduces performance by roughly 20-30 percent, as I recall.)

In adition (sic), octane levels are also adjusted on seasonal levels.

Wrong again. They do adjust the gasoline formula for seasonal conditions (e.g. "winter gas"), in much of the country. However, they don't change the octane; they change other characteristics, such as raising the percentage of alcohol (ethanol) in the fuel. You can read more about that here, where they discuss "winter oxygenated gasoline". Here in the Midwest, they increase the percentage of ethanol from roughly 7 percent to roughly 10 percent in the winter.

Does anybody know WHY Cali is getting the short end of the stick with only 91 octane?

You can read an article about it here. The reasons this article states are primarily those of cost and operating efficiency, not environmental reasons.

 

[Yellow Rose]

No Pigs

I've always heard they used pigs to separate the batches that get run through pipelines.

Under normal operating conditions, hydrocarbon products are never separated with a pig.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Wrong

Originally posted by nsxtasy Now they're all acquiring each other all over again, with Exxon-Mobil, BP/Amoco, Shell/Texaco, etc.

Shell and Texaco are not together. For a brief span of a few years, Shell and Texaco combined only their pipeline and downstream assests to create a company called Equilon. However, that company has since been dissolved.

In today's climate, Texaco has nothing to do with Shell. Instead, they have aligned themselves with Chevron. The new union is called ChevronTexaco.

 

[AKUDOU]

Re: Wrong

Shell and Texaco are not together. For a brief span of a few years, Shell and Texaco combined only their pipeline and downstream assests to create a company called Equilon. However, that company has since been dissolved.

In today's climate, Texaco has nothing to do with Shell. Instead, they have aligned themselves with Chevron. The new union is called ChevronTexaco.

Andy, I couldn't of explained it better. The Shell/Texaco merger was a nightmare.Basicly Shell upper management had there act together Texaco management had never and or was never allowed to make a decision on anything until cleared through many channels, so it basically created a cluster f__k. A friend of mine in the main office in Houston that calculated the change order on pricing every day before 5pm on the Motiva side told me that his Texaco counter part on the Equilon side never set foot in his office in over two years and he was just across the hall. We would have sometimes a price swing over 5 cents between terminals one being Equilon and the other Motiva that were 150 miles apart. I was in between the terminals 100m either way but could only pull Shell out of just one.Man did that become frustrating at times.

 

[nsxtasy]

Thanks for the additional clarification about Shell-Texaco.

Incidentally, you can see the reflection of the growing concentration in the oil industry as a result of these mergers here, using retail gasoline sales in California as an example. Apparently Atlantic-Richfield (Arco) is somehow part of BP-Amoco these days, too.

 

[RichH]

In my part of the northeast. The highest octane I have seen is Sunoco 94 Octane.

Rich

 

[nsxtasy]

In my part of the northeast. The highest octane I have seen is Sunoco 94 Octane.

That is the brand I was referring to when I said, "one East Coast brand carries 94 octane".

Unlike other brands, Sunoco's pumps usually offer more than three grades of gasoline, so there are two different grades of premium. As noted on their website, "Sunoco sells four grades of gasoline – five in the MidAmerica market – compared to the "standard" offering of three grades. In addition to Regular (87 octane), Plus (89 octane) and Super (93 octane), Sunoco markets Ultra® 94 – the highest octane available at any consumer pump – throughout its 21-state marketing territory. An 86-octane Economy grade is also available in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, West Virginia and Kentucky."

Sunoco's website (here) also has some interesting technical information about their fuels, including some of the subjects discussed in this topic.