NSX Diabolical on Ice

Joined
20 March 2001
Messages
942
Location
Atlanta, GA, USA
I was driving to work this morning in sunny 25F weather. The roads were dry with patches of ice. Whenever I drove over a patch of ice the rear of the car would kick out quite dramatically. Others were giving me a wide berth as they observed this. This happened even though I was not accelerating or decelerating - just coasting over the ice patch.

Anyone know what causes this? Since (I think) no driveline torque was involved it seems related to the pre-tensing of the suspension caused by wheel alignment and tire construction. I was using OEM 16/17" tires and wheels.
 
Originally posted by Soichiro:
Anyone know what causes this?
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I was using OEM 16/17" tires and wheels.

That's what causes this. The OEM tires are not designed for use in winter temperatures or on icy roads.
 
Originally posted by Soichiro:
...it seems related to the pre-tensing of the suspension caused by wheel alignment and tire construction.

You got it! Stock the front tires are slightly pulling against each other and the rears are slightly pushing against each other. When you have roughly even traction things are in balance.

When you go to almost zero traction on one or more wheels, the wheel on the opposite end of the axle that still has some traction no longer has anything opposing it, so it pushes or pulls the car.

It's pretty unnevering, huh?
 
>>It's pretty unnevering, huh?

That's putting it mildly. Throwing the car unexpectedly sideways at 60mph will get your attention every time. I feel lucky I have practiced this during track days, which also gave me the knowledge to coast over the ice. Acceleration torque coupled with loss of traction could spin the car on a crowded freeway.
 
Originally posted by pbassjo:
Wow, I didn't know Atlanta had ice problems.
Scratch that location for retirement.

Ice is fairly common in Atlanta - not every day, of course, but several times a winter. And it's not as far south as some would think; for example, it's closer to Chicago than to Miami, even though Miami is in the next state.

It's also further west than most folks realize; even though it's in a state that borders the Atlantic Ocean, it's further west than Detroit.
 
When I was bringing my NSX back from California to Washington, I was determined to detour over to Reno and try an Awful Awful hamburger (which was all right, but I prefer Jack's Bacon Ultimate Cheeseburger).

It just happens that it snowed on the way. Hard. Really hard. Like 22 inches hard in the passes. So I can confirm that an NSX without any torque applied definitely does indeed slip alarmingly to the side if one tire is on snow/ice.

BTW, anyone wishing to berate me for driving an NSX through snowy 10,000' passes is probably justified in doing so.
smile.gif
(I wouldn't recommend it unless you grew up driving rear-wheel-drive cars on the frozen tundra of Saskatchewan.)
 
unless you grew up driving rear-wheel-drive cars on the frozen tundra of Saskatchewan.)[/B]

Sounds like you're baiting me for a response, so here goes.

Since snow/ice conditions last for months up here, I invested in a second set of rims and Michelin Arctic Alpin winter tires and I can safely report that I have had none of the sudden sideways motions mentioned in this topic (and my alignment was checked about 12mos ago).

In fact, in Dec I was driving through a blizzard with some freezing rain and patchy ice conditions so about every hour I would check the traction by gently touching the brakes (at 60 MPH) and the ABS would instantly come on and I'd be in a four wheel drift for a few seconds, so it was definitely slippery. Needless to say, I pretty much had the road to myself as the police were telling people to stay off the roads. Anyway, I drove like this for about 350 miles at 60 and the car was very stable. It does do a very, very mild 'wiggle' ever now and again (even around town at low speeds) which I haven't figured out but nothing that really gets your attention or requires a steering correction.

As far as torque steer on patchy or slippery conditions, it's almost never an issue if you're accelerating in a straight line. Most roads are slightly crowned in the middle so if you're starting on sheer ice sometimes it will slip sideways but I don't think I've had anything greater than 8". Accelerating around a corner on ice is more tricky but manageable.

The new winter tires definitely stick better on ice than all seasons but they're also a softer compound and will wear out more quickly. The difference is so dramatic that the rear end on my wife's front wheel drive car often comes around on me because I only put winter tires on the front .. the fronts dig in on corners and the backs can't keep up. It's like oversteer but it's FWD .. but oddly enough, you can control the slip angle with a combination of throttle and steering.

Really the only annoying thing about driving the NSX on slippery surfaces is that quite often the TCS will significantly override the throttles and then decide to release them again and you get a very jerky takeoff .. almost like you've had a serious fuel starvation problem.

But hey.. it's worth it to me to be able to enjoy the car 365.

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- Ian
91 Blk/Blk daily driver; 100K+ miles & still going strong
 
> unless you grew up driving rear-wheel-drive cars on the frozen tundra of Saskatchewan.)

Sounds like you're baiting me for a response

Heh, no, I'm from Saskatchewan. I was born and raised in Saskatoon, up until I finished college and moved somewhere warmer.

What city are you in?


[This message has been edited by Aiken Drum (edited 18 January 2003).]
 
Why would the LSD have anything to do with it?

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
I'm from Toronto and have lots of experience driving on ice including frozen lakes in norther Ontario. I'd like to know why the LSD might affect this too. A driving coach I respect gave another reason - by letting off the gas I was moving weight forward at the same time as applying engine braking to the rear. The resulting instability made the car twitch over the icy patch. He suggested keeping a neutral throttle or de-clutching when approaching similar situations. BTW I got my beater back together over the weekend so my NSX is back to warmer drives!
 
When I was in the same situation, I did have neutral throttle and also tried putting the car in neutral an coasting. Same results. All this was with the steering wheel held straight on a straight road. So while the weight transfer may have made it worse, it happens even without it.

I don't see how the LSD would play a roll, especially since it did the same thing when the car was coasting in neutral.

I'd definitely get snow tires if I ever planned to drive in snow. Summer performance tires are useless.
 
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