NSX brakes - disable ABS or not?

[titaniumdave]

I agree with Billy, if you drop the ABS you need a proportioning valve of dual master cylinder set up with a balance bar, especially if you are running the Brembo GT brake set with the same size calipers front and rear.(unlike Honda designed)

The only logical reason to remove the ABS is if you are wanting to drop weight, and I think there are better places to start that project. By the time you get to the point it makes sense to pull the ABS, you have a complete stripped race car, IMO.

If you want to play around, do the parking brake thing, the ABS really helps balance the braking on the NSX. I still have mine and have run it with all the BBK I have built.

 

[liftnot]

I agree with Billy, if you drop the ABS you need a proportioning valve of dual master cylinder set up with a balance bar,

The only logical reason to remove the ABS is if you are wanting to drop weight, and I think there are better places to start that project. By the time you get to the point it makes sense to pull the ABS, you have a complete stripped race car, IMO.

If you want to play around, do the parking brake thing,

I agree w/ your point Dave. it just that the abs unit is close to 30lbs.!!! If i go to the Tilton route, i would have to strip out more stuff to make the Tilton work right. Is Tilton the only viable solution?

 

[stuntman]

I agree w/ your point Dave. it just that the abs unit is close to 30lbs.!!! If i go to the Tilton route, i would have to strip out more stuff to make the Tilton work right. Is Tilton the only viable solution?

No, you can use an in-line proportioning valve either at the master cylinder (on a stock master) or in the cockpit.

You don't have to go to a tilton setup to adjust the brake bias, their's plenty of proportioning valves you can use. Although Tilton is the best/most accurate/most expensive solution, but might not make sense to go to a twin master setup...

FYI - Factor X's unlimited car isn't a twin master setup yet -we just use a proportioning valve.

 

[liftnot]

Thx Billy. Tilton Pro. valve would be my 1st choice....and losing ~30lbs. dead weight :smile:
I have to work on that.

 

[titaniumdave]

The nice thing about using the proportioning valve is you keep the power brakes. Once you go with a dual master cylinder you will loose that and need to play with different diameter master cylinders to get the correct pedal feel you like, I know Shad went through that with the white NSX Kip drove at Time attach and I drove Gary Yates car with the 'wrong' master cylinders on his race car. You will need to match the master cylinders with your calipers and it may take some trial and error.

My point was the ABS would be pretty far down my list of weight reductions and I would only do it for a track only car.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

I'm still mixed on this debate.

The message in this thread seems to infer that you don't need the ability to brake and corner at the same time in a race car on a road course. For fastest lap go back to manual. Makes sense, and I will defer to Billy's and Dave's opinion on this matter.

However, maybe a few counter-points before pulling it all apart...

What about really late trail braking scenarios? I've blown turn-in before and wrestled my way through on the brakes. Hit 350 feet.. stomp on the brakes... engage abs.... get to turn-in... opps ok there went turn-in.... and while all that is going on... time to think about working to get the front end rotated. So now, due to the modulation the front tire can devote X percentage to braking and X percentage to turning. Bam, you got through slower but who cares at least you made it!! You are definitely not going to win anything in the tire wall. :redface: :biggrin:

Further..

What about the wet ones? What happens if a animal jumps in front of your car? Or a car spins out in front of you? Or your friend thinks it is an accident avoidance exercise and starts throwing cones in front of you as you blast down the front straight? LOL.

Could not a good ABS system prove useful if nothing more than as a safety feature? I question the context. Just because someone has a car that can run a X:XX blazing lap doesn't mean the average driver can think fast enough to run a X:XX blazing lap. Just because pro driver X can think fast enough to manage a hot lap doesn't mean the average driver can respond quite as quickly in certain panic save life n' car mode type panic situations as they can. For many people ABS means one less thing to worry about and gives them time to think about car control. I'm not sure we want car communities at large pulling their ABS out particularly in an entry level HPDE context.

I tend to agree with Dave. I can see pulling the system to save weight if the rules won't allow it... or you are only out there for a few quick laps at a time attack and chasing fastest possible lap time then sure- prioritizing weight makes sense in many racing contexts. Sometimes you just need to get that thing gutted to be competitive. And if the system just sucks or isn't working with a BBK, sure pull the fuse/controller or simply ditch it.

However, I see a lot of race cars, even up to the seven figure pro level (bringing big name talent to the table) and they still do retain full factory ABS systems. Some even go to great lengths to install pricey aftermarket systems with logging.

So my question I want to pose, is what do you guys think would be right for me looking out over the next 3-5 years time?

We have a stock 1" bore, and swapping between a few on a dual setup (hell they are like what- $89-$179 entry level for a MC) and playing with the valve one would think should be relatively quick testing to find the right spot overa couple of days. I have no issue there as I don't mind finagling. I get into ABS a lot... so maybe this weekend I'll just pull the controller out and give it a go for awhile to get a stock base line with my specific setup. While I have good experience on other cars without... in my NSX I've always left it on up to this point.

However, just keep in mind in my case I have the 97+ ABS. To me it would seem to be a pretty significant improvement over the first generation... and although maybe slightly finicky I have been pretty happy with its performance. I'm going to do some more testing this weekend with the new brakes as I was left undecided on this topic. I definitely plan to add a Tilton balance bar here shortly.

Given the choice, I'm kind of leaning toward retaining a working later model ABS system if possible. I suspect most of you have the now fifteen year old original ABS which is why many might be so inclined to just ditch it. Many are also down in the desert or running tire diameters outside of the threshold. Understandable.

I'd be down to hear your thoughts.

Regards,

John

 

[Tanto2]

97 the new style?, I thought it was 2001 and newer. I've only put 18K on my car, with only two track sessions, but since my tires are due for replacement I've been playing a bit. It seems to me the problem with the NSX is the front bias, the fronts just lock up too fast, at least at street speeds, and it is quite distracting. But The take away is the ABS is activating too soon, or too easily, but of course it only comes in after lock up. My problem is that one in 30 times when just one little pebble releases the brakes for say 5 feet at 50 and probably a whole lot more at speed. I WANT that 5 feet back. So for me it's how much better (quicker to cut down that 5 feet) the new system. And Johns feelings about help when missing corners is an excellent example to analyze. I know Ken said he rarely goes into ABS on the track. Not to dimish his input, is that the experience of others? or are others hitting it often? I also agree with John that disabling is only for the fringe extremists. It also seems to me it's only for those that aren't EVER going to track in the rain. Isn't that why the racers keep it? In the rain, you really can take advantage of the ability to steer. In the dry, not so much. Please freely disagree. Thanks, IMO this is an extremely useful topic that can't be discussed too much. I know it bothers the Honda faithfull, but I believe the analysis of any vehicles weaknesses is the first step to liveing well with them, or of course improving them.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

97 the new style?, I thought it was 2001 and newer.

Same layout in 97, but different 16 bit microprocessor controller behind the dash. The part number for the ALB controller changed that year. Likely two reasons, the design emphasis on split traction surfaces (similar to TCS / DBW integration changes) and the larger outer diameter wheels / tires / brakes / tweeks as part of the larger NA2 over-haul.

39790-SL0-003 A.L.B. UNIT 1 1996 NSX 1398.43 1113.18
39790-SL0-023 ABS UNIT 1 1997 NSX 1412.00 1123.98 Qty:

Don't quote me but I believe the major revision to which you are refering came after I purchased mine.. in late 99' early 00' I believe- whereas they moved to the integrated unit and new integrated controller similar to the ITR.

I know Ken said he rarely goes into ABS on the track. Not to dimish his input, is that the experience of others? or are others hitting it often?

I bleed my system at the start of every year. I can assure you that I give it quite the work-out, as sure as the sky is blue.

 

[titaniumdave]

My problem is that one in 30 times when just one little pebble releases the brakes for say 5 feet at 50 and probably a whole lot more at speed. I WANT that 5 feet back.

There is no 5 feet to get back, the ABS only works when the wheels are locked up. Once the wheel stops turning, your ability to brake/slow the car is diminished because of the change in friction. The coefficient of friction for rubber with grip on the road is much higher than for rubber sliding across the road. Getting the wheel to stop sliding sooner can give you shorter braking distances, but that is because the ABS actuates more and quicker, not less. If you want your '5 feet' back, learn to modulate the brakes:wink:

Like Ken says, on the track one should learn to not get into the ABS. It is one of the skills one should develop to feel how the car handles and what it can do. The ABS is a great safety tool, I still run with mine and I am sure if I could log it, it does come on from time to time on the track, but my goal is to feel the car and the brakes to such an extent I can threshold brake and not need the ABS.

If you have the chance to do a skills day with your car, have an instructor work on your threshold braking. Start off slamming the brakes as hard as you can form about 80, get the ABS to kick hard. Keep repeating that until you can stop the car by slowly decreasing the pedal pressure until the ABS no longer kicks on. With those conditions, that will be your threshold, or maximum braking you can do in your NSX. Save the ABS for panic situations and use this exercise calibrate your foot and skills to feel the car.

 

[Tanto2]

There is no 5 feet to get back,
My 5 ft reference went back to my original post referring to the lag time in the controller, not losing 5 ft from my not knowing how to threshold brake. I assume anyone on this list understands and can apply at least rudimetary threshold braking, and I certainly can. My example in a little more detail: Your cruising the street at 50-90, a deer jumps out, you apply maximum threshold braking, one or perhaps both of your front tires hit a couple of 3/8" pebbles causing a momentary stopping of the tire as the friction is nill, the controller dumps the pressure to that wheel. That wheel is freewheeling until the controller re-applies pressure. Since there were only a couple of pebbles, you lost 4'-11 5/8" of threshold braking capability before the wheel re-hooks. It's this lag time that I'm using to get the theoretical 5 feet. Without trying to recall the speeds and details of each occasion, I'm only going to say it DOES happen on urban roads. This obviously hasn't happen to a lot of people or they don't want to talk about their wreck. And it looks like this almost never happens at the track (because you don't get into abs much). Hope this explains my point. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the late model unit, as I assume it cycles a lot faster. Or maybe fit an S2000 unit? Thanks Dave, your post was excellent in light of what I gave you.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

No question ABS is slower straight line dry stop perfect conditions. Like TCS, Stability systems, etc... it has its place on modern road cars.

Usually I trust my brake butt dyno.. but as Dave said without a log it is hard to say when you are concentrating 100% on session. Like everyone, over all these years of ownership I've hopped on too hard, came in too hot, etc... got into ABS and in hindsight perhaps on the next good average fair weather day I should just disengage it and work more on me... pedal pressure and see if I can find a balance with a manual setup / do without. What's fair is fair.

Still, I think I'd miss it. I still very much enjoy running braking exercises at driving clinics and engaging my ABS at low speed. For 99% definitely a very good safety feature to have on-board- even if you have many years to your back.

Here's a data point.

I'm pretty sure ABS saved my front splitter the other week. New BBK. Trying new things out. It was still patchy wet, and I came in a little hot to a tight chicane we had setup with cones, and I was looking wide across the field and when I focused narrow I spotted this puddle in a dip. I felt I just had to lock 'em to bleed off some entry speed while wrestling my nose around so as to avoid clipping a cone on drivers left or the split surface on drivers right. Maybe I was just too scared to put my tail out that far next to a concrete wall! Shit! Got a little closer to that cone than I thought!!

No ABS...

Probably would have locked the fronts with my brake pad/tire. Still trying to get the subtle pedal feel with the new kit. I very well might have found myself with a cone lodged under my drivers left front end... just the wrong way.. uggh... could have put some spider cracks on my cool wide fiberglass bumper that takes up half the track. LOL. :frown:

Hard to say.

Right now my suspension feels like stock until you hit just the wrong divet.. then it feels like you are driving a skateboard. The car accelerates pretty quick... overall it just feels so point and shoot to me- the opposite of an under powered momentum car. This new setup this year is going to take a little time for me to get used to so I figured I'd try things as-is then perhaps pull the ABS last. In the mean-time... so much fun.. !!

My 02 cents..

All things with the NSX considered... unless you got the mad skills and really believe your ABS is best.... high HP ME RWD.... too easy for the average driver to one day get it to step out and find themselves in un-chartered territory.. especially in bad weather. Hydro, ice, gravel, grass, debris...

..and then aside from being worth 30lbs... ABS just might be your new best friend!! :biggrin:

 

[titaniumdave]

There is no 5 feet to get back,
My 5 ft reference went back to my original post referring to the lag time in the controller, not losing 5 ft from my not knowing how to threshold brake. I assume anyone on this list understands and can apply at least rudimetary threshold braking, and I certainly can. My example in a little more detail: Your cruising the street at 50-90, a deer jumps out, you apply maximum threshold braking, one or perhaps both of your front tires hit a couple of 3/8" pebbles causing a momentary stopping of the tire as the friction is nill, the controller dumps the pressure to that wheel. That wheel is freewheeling until the controller re-applies pressure. Since there were only a couple of pebbles, you lost 4'-11 5/8" of threshold braking capability before the wheel re-hooks. It's this lag time that I'm using to get the theoretical 5 feet. Without trying to recall the speeds and details of each occasion, I'm only going to say it DOES happen on urban roads. This obviously hasn't happen to a lot of people or they don't want to talk about their wreck. And it looks like this almost never happens at the track (because you don't get into abs much). Hope this explains my point. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the late model unit, as I assume it cycles a lot faster. Or maybe fit an S2000 unit? Thanks Dave, your post was excellent in light of what I gave you.

I understand you theoretical situation with the deer, but short of having a street cleaner to keep pebbles off the road, I thing you will stop faster with the ABS. With or with out ABS, your wheel will stop turning for a split second when you hit the pebble, I know the ABS will get that wheel rolling again quicker than I ever can.

There are much better ABS systems out there than was ever offered in the NSX, but I still think the NSX ABS is better than my skills in this situation.

I think the 'human ABS' would have cost you 50' in this situation! I will take the 5' loss...

 

[velo-ct]

Re: NSX brakes - Disable for me

One more opinion checking in...

I have been tracking mine since 99. I only have the old 91 with stock calipers, carbotech panther plus pads and metal lines. I always have the abs fuses pulled when I am on the track (actually on the steet also so I get some extra practice when dodging morons). I pulled them after some abs events at the track. I found the pulse frequency is too slow so a high speed abs event involves very long skidding patches left behind for evidence. It takes too much distance to reacquire grip after the cycle starts.

I feel when I am threshold braking that it becomes very obvious when you've exceeded your grip because you are anticipating it as you approach the limit and can train yourself to ease up instantly when you start to slip. Since I dont have the abs option available I have reprogrammed myself never to stomp on the brakes in panic mode.

I feel that in my case driving without abs has made me a better driver. I also think you learn faster how to recover the car when you lose it under braking.

There is no substitute for practice. It takes a lot of time on the track to work out bad habits so you do the right thing by reflex without having to think about it.

That being said there is one situation where I spun dangerously at the end of the straight that ABS would probably have saved me. During the session I went completely through the sticky part of one my rear tires so as soon as I hit the brakes at 130 I got rewarded with a snap spin. It is this assymetric braking scenario that I feel the abs still has some merit maybe in the older cars, like hitting fluid with only one tire, etc.

Riding with a friend in a SCCA-T1 prepared vette showed that they actually have come to rely on the abs but it is a whole different animal now.

 

[stuntman]

Not everyone is as good as you velo...

I agree with everything u said. Glad to hear some people are trying to make themselves a better driver

 

[1PRCNT]

I have a tarox bbk 6 piston 13" rotor kit in the front and the 13" rotor upgrade in the rear. I found that the ABS activated a little too much and prematurely with the brake upgrade in. I decided to yank the main ABS fuse (not the two smaller fuses) This allows your TCS to still be active if you choose. I always disable my tcs when attempting to take my car to it's limits. I've found it does take much more skill and pedal play to stop faster than with abs. IMO with abs is probably easier if you don't want to modulate your braking manually. I ended up leaving the fuse out and drive without ABS, it's definitely a different feel when under heavy braking!!

 

[Tanto2]

I know the ABS will get that wheel rolling again quicker than I ever can.

Uh, we're still not communicating. Getting the wheel rolling again IS the problem, I don't want it to freewheel, I want to get back to threshold braking and it won't let me. It's the lag time between applications of hydraulic pressure. That cycle (lag) time is slooooow IMO. Thanks

 

[titaniumdave]

I know the ABS will get that wheel rolling again quicker than I ever can.

Uh, we're still not communicating. Getting the wheel rolling again IS the problem, I don't want it to freewheel, I want to get back to threshold braking and it won't let me. It's the lag time between applications of hydraulic pressure. That cycle (lag) time is slooooow IMO. Thanks

So how do you suggest you deal with the 'pebble/deer situation' you threw out there when your front tires lock on the 3/8" pebbles?

The topic here is having the stock ABS, or removing it. So I am not clear about where you come down on that. Are you saying when you have your front tires locked and sliding on pebbles you think you are better off having no ABS?

In that situation I think I am better off with it. Please clarify you position.

 

[Tanto2]

Re: NSX brakes - Disable for me

velo said: It takes too much distance to reacquire grip after the cycle starts.

I feel when I am threshold braking that it becomes very obvious when you've exceeded your grip because you are anticipating it as you approach the limit and can train yourself to ease up instantly when you start to slip. Since I dont have the abs option available I have reprogrammed myself never to stomp on the brakes in panic mode.

I feel that in my case driving without abs has made me a better driver. I also think you learn faster how to recover the car when you lose it under braking.

Home run velo! You've summed up the salient issues expertly IMO. I also found the abs very distracting on the track, and thats not good at least for me. The only thing I could add is abs just plain upsets the chassis, and being a 40 year bike rider, it's all about keeping the chassis in hand. If you can threshold brake both front and rear wheels separately, an NSX should be easy(with a few dozen schools of course). I imagine some day ABS & TCS will be the way to go. I'll be in heaven then:smile: and won't care. Call me old school, but it's all about the personal pleasure meter. Thanks all!

 

[titaniumdave]

Re: NSX brakes - Disable for me

velo said: It takes too much distance to reacquire grip after the cycle starts.

I feel when I am threshold braking that it becomes very obvious when you've exceeded your grip because you are anticipating it as you approach the limit and can train yourself to ease up instantly when you start to slip. Since I dont have the abs option available I have reprogrammed myself never to stomp on the brakes in panic mode.

I feel that in my case driving without abs has made me a better driver. I also think you learn faster how to recover the car when you lose it under braking.

Home run velo! You've summed up the salient issues expertly IMO. I also found the abs very distracting on the track, and thats not good at least for me. The only thing I could add is abs just plain upsets the chassis, and being a 40 year bike rider, it's all about keeping the chassis in hand. If you can threshold brake both front and rear wheels separately, an NSX should be easy(with a few dozen schools of course). I imagine some day ABS & TCS will be the way to go. I'll be in heaven then:smile: and won't care. Call me old school, but it's all about the personal pleasure meter. Thanks all!

????

I agree with your point about the track, train yourself to feel the car and not use the ABS. It is much easier to drive the car at the limit if never accurate the ABS.

Why did you bring up the pebble/deer situation????

 

[Tanto2]

QUOTE=titaniumdave;904337]

So how do you suggest you deal with the 'pebble/deer situation' you threw out there when your front tires lock on the 3/8" pebbles?

The topic here is having the stock ABS, or removing it. So I am not clear about where you come down on that. Are you saying when you have your front tires locked and sliding on pebbles you think you are better off having no ABS?

In that situation I think I am better off with it. Please clarify you position.[/QUOTE]

The deer scenario, minus the deer part (I was just going very fast coming up to a stoplight) really happened to me. There were like 3 or 4 pebbles(I looked-it was by my home). So my front tires were under threshold, the pebble causes momentary loss of braking traction that made the tire lock. The abs kicks out the hydro and I freewheel for a distance which instantly puts the pebbles OUT of the equation, yet i freewheel for X distance MORE. A distance that ideally I should be under threshold. IMO this is a situation where ideally you don't want the abs to intervene. Maybe it was a bizarre one of, but I doubt it. There have been other similar instances. As far as where I stand?, I'm thinking we are all just brainstorming here?. My bent FWIW today it to convert to the later unit or perhaps an even better one, and play some more. I think there are a whole bunch of situations that ideally one would have to look at, and IMO we are only scratching the surface here. Right now, I REALLY agree with velo, I want to control the lock ups, and I can do that(relative of course). If you are of PD skills, and you have TRAINED yourself to steer under abs (which is the whole deal, right?), then go for it. Perhaps I'm in the wrong forum because frankly I'm a street guy and thats what I'm evaluating the abs for, but I thought (and was correct) that you guys would be more analytical about this. Hope I was clearer this time. Thanks!

 

[L8apex32]

Tanto2, you are still not clear to me as to what you are asking.

Go back and read what Stuntman said on 11/02.

To summarize, ABS is usually better for street. This is because of uneven conditions, such as ice under the left tires and not under the right ones. ABS will allow you to stop both straighter and faster in these conditions.

Also, on the street, you are more likely to need a panic stop. Even trained drivers may panic if the threat is high enough. ABS will stop faster if/when the driver panics and will allow a driver that partially "comes to" to then steer around the object(s) while the leg is planted firmly on the floor. This is an everday event on city streets with modern cars.

Those reasons are why ABS is installed on street cars.

On the track, for a repeated and planned braking event, with known conditions, like dry track, warm tires, knowing where bumps are, if any, a skilled driver can often outperform '90s era ABS systems which is what most NSXes have.

In many cases, DE drivers NEVER use the brakes hard enough to cause lock up so it won't matter if you have ABS on or off at the track. I consider myself a "beyond advanced" driver and I only engaged ABS are few minor times all season on the track.

If this discussion is only about street driving, one would have a hard time convincing me that ABS off is better or safer.

I think this thread has covered this issue in about every way it can be. At least, one can hope.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Tanto2, you are still not clear to me as to what you are asking.

Go back and read what Stuntman said on 11/02.

To summarize, ABS is usually better for street. This is because of uneven conditions, such as ice under the left tires and not under the right ones. ABS will allow you to stop both straighter and faster in these conditions.

Also, on the street, you are more likely to need a panic stop. Even trained drivers may panic if the threat is high enough. ABS will stop faster if/when the driver panics and will allow a driver that partially "comes to" to then steer around the object(s) while the leg is planted firmly on the floor. This is an everday event on city streets with modern cars.

Those reasons are why ABS is installed on street cars.

On the track, for a repeated and planned braking event, with known conditions, like dry track, warm tires, knowing where bumps are, if any, a skilled driver can often outperform '90s era ABS systems which is what most NSXes have.

In many cases, DE drivers NEVER use the brakes hard enough to cause lock up so it won't matter if you have ABS on or off at the track. I consider myself a "beyond advanced" driver and I only engaged ABS are few minor times all season on the track.

If this discussion is only about street driving, one would have a hard time convincing me that ABS off is better or safer.

I think this thread has covered this issue in about every way it can be. At least, one can hope.

Sounds fair. I think a lot of southern guys are falling into that fair weather bucket.

Another point someone brought up to me was that flat spotting tires on an NSX can be very expensive. Even pro drivers self-enabling-ABS end up lock n' a front unexpectedly from time to time. So, some might also choose to retain it as added tire insurance in a club track-day context.

To each's own.

 

[L8apex32]

Another point someone brought up to me was that flat spotting tires on an NSX can be very expensive. Even pro drivers self-enabling-ABS end up lock n' a front unexpectedly from time to time. So, some might also choose to retain it as added tire insurance in a club track-day context.

To each's own.

That is exactly why I "tried" using ABS this season at the track - didn't want to flatspot my new set of R tires. When I noticed that even I (he humbly says) didn't engage ABS much, if at all, I have left it on since.

Good point.

 

[NSXWayneNZ]

At a recent NSX Suzuka Basic Course event they had panic braking at 140kph, 160, and 180. All the cars had ABS except mine to which everyone said shook their heads and mentioned that I had big balls or stupid. Never really thought about it really(From NZ and learn't to drive on gravel roads) as ABS is mainly for the rain I thought. They had a person measuring the braking distance and my car was on par of the better stopping distances. The main straight on the day was dry and on the racing line just past the start finish line were the 2 cones to begin braking. From the top of the straight going flat chat I was barely able to reach 180 and those cones were real narrow at that speed, the braking was less of a problem, actually fun!
Many thanks for the input of driving with ABS on gravel and snow. Throw away the computers and drive a Formula Ford.

 

[gsrboy]

I want to do the ABS delete since mine is not working and is just dead weight right now. I know dali sells there kit with the distribution block I just dont know how well it works.