NOS at the track?

ChopsJazz said:
This is an interesting thread. If I may add my $.02. My car, a '91 3.0, makes 271 rwhp with just H/E and I reel in and pass M3s all day long. Even the 2001 models. IMO nitrous would simply amplify any of your current problems on the track, not solve them.

It sounds to me that you may have plenty of track experience, but does that include actual time with an instructor? Regardless of your desire not to hear it, the best driving investment is on the nut that holds the wheel.

Hmm.. Are you talking about the track or in the street?

My 97 NSX can keep up with them at the track but there is no way that I can blow past them on the straights like a GT2, GT3, Turbo, Radical, 360, etc, would. The HP and torque figures are too close to call, the gearing on the E46's is pretty good as well and the extra torque down low really helps. So when I read that you can reel them in and pass them it really makes me wonder if you are talking about amateur drivers at the track or people who actually have track experience on their E46's.

I'm sure that gobble is no newbie at the track given his posts.

Ken
 
gobble said:
No. 3 groups at Blackhawk. Novice (with instructor), intermediate, advanced.
Plus I assume the instructors run as a group. Which means four run groups.

gobble said:
Each group has four runs with a half hour free for all at the end open to anyone left standing.
So each group gets four 25-minute sessions, and the half hour at the end, makes 130 minutes total track time, less time for staging etc. I still don't see how you can run out of gas starting with a full tank - and you didn't answer the questions that could help explain it.

gobble said:
You should join us sometime.
No thanks. I've driven on 21 different tracks, and I rank Blackhawk 20th for fun (topping only Nelson Ledges). Besides, to paraphrase Groucho Marx, I don't need to run with any club that wouldn't have me as a member. ;)
 
2slow2speed said:
I'm sure that gobble is no newbie at the track given his posts.
I agree. His first few posts in this topic implied the contrary, but he later clarified that.
 
nsxtasy said:
Plus I assume the instructors run as a group. Which means four run groups.

No, just three groups. The instructors run in group two or three depending on what they're driving. Group three is usually reserved for the faster cars. Its not fun to hop out of your car and immediately into your students car, but thats the way they do it.

Now that I think of it, I actually ran out of gas (almost) at the Road America event last year. I remember borrowing a 5 gallon bottle from my friend who trails up his GT3. I always fill prior to an event at the closest gas station. I can't explain it but it happens.
 
Maybe time for a tune up? Just a thought, but it does seem like this could be a sign of something not running exactly right.

I used to drive to VIR (~70 miles), run four sessions and drive home before filling up in cool weather. If AC on, then maybe fill up before leaving Danville.

I trailer now, so it is not really comparable.
 
Re: Re: NOS

gobble said:
333hp vs. 270hp

He runs away from me on the straights at Road America. Its not even close.

Go with Zex or Venom. They run with a piggyback to the ECU, and cut the NOS based on a/f ratio for safety sake.

Jeff Bjerke's and Bryan Hunters naturally aspirated NSX's with just bolt-on's hang right on the bumper down every straight of every E46 M3, and better them under braking (BBK) and handling in the turns, thus allowing a pass every time.

Show up @ BMW and bring your stopwatch. Compare to your times. You should be running about a 2:45 with your set up. If not, you need more skills, NOT NOS. I ran high 2:40's with my turbo GSR, making only 230 bhp flywheel (2650 #) , so don't say bhp means everything. Weight and skills are the key.
 
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2slow2speed said:
Hmm.. Are you talking about the track or in the street?

My 97 NSX can keep up with them at the track but there is no way that I can blow past them on the straights like a GT2, GT3, Turbo, Radical, 360, etc, would. Ken

I assume we're all talking about the track here. Remember, this isn't wheel to wheel racing, but instead open track driving. If you catch a car through the twisties and are behind them in the passing zones you are obligated to get a wave-by and a pass.
 
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ChopsJazz said:
I assume we're all talking about the track here. Remember, this isn't wheel to wheel racing, but instead open track driving. I you catch a car through the twisties and are behind them in the passing zones you are obligated to get a wave-by and a pass.

Thanks for the clarification, I agree, stock E46 M3's are slower through the twisties than a stock NSX because of their weight.

Ken
 
gobble, before you go NOS. Put your headers and exhaust on(you can also remove the catalic converters for -22 lbs), get a good air filter, remove the factory intake muffler, remove the spare tire and mount, remove pass. seat,remove the engine cover, thats all you should need to pass your friend. My 93 weighs in at 2860lbs with a 1/4 tank of gas and puts out 266hp to the wheels(before the throttle body and intake porting). The headers/ exhaust and weight reduction will make your NSX feel like a new car.....:D and when its time for a clutch go with an alluminum flywheel.
 
OK, My Turn...

Gobble & Crew,

Yes, using N20 on the road course is a great equalizer to high HP cars, and if you use it to add torque on track out it can mean many seconds off your lap times. I put the RM 70 HP kit on 4 years ago for street use, and found it worked wonderfully at the track. To all you nay sayers out there - you are flat out wrong.

Now I never claimed to be a good driver, but as I get better, having the juice is even more fun. I most commonly run with the "Slow Pokes" Porsche group, which includes everything from street 944s and Boxters thru big dog GT3 Cup cars, full race Vipers, etc. Other than the most experienced drivers in the best cars, I pretty much roll by everyone else because of using N20 to come off corners - and I run street tires most often. It is fun though watching a Cup car pass me twice in three laps on a three mile course!

Unlike most superchargers, my button is instant torque exactly when I want it - no worry about boost coming on and kicking the rear out or waiting until revs come up for it to come on. I've found that I can get on it as soon as the car approaches track out and even the shortest corner to corner sections can use a little bump of the bottle. At my local track - Brainerd Intl - using it is worth 4 seconds a lap. Last I checked, there is no single upgrade you can do that'll give you that, other than raw driving skill and a rented car.

Now the other side of that coin is I'm careful, if not a little timid of a driver as I want to have a car to drive home. My experience and confidence has been built up by MANY track events and lots of street use and I know exactly what the car will do when I press my left thumb down. Because of it's "instant" characteristics, it could easily send you spinning if you used it too early in a corner. Just using it on straights is OK, but doesn't give you the true benefit of the extra power.

I've not ever failed tech because of the bottle, but I'm sure there are some events that'll do that. The only hole drilled were for the solid bottle mount in the trunk floor, and they are small and could be filled with rubber plugs if required. It is easy to install if you take your time and read how I did it - or get a hold of BadCarma.

As a side note, I rarely used it at Infineon/NSXPO 2003 - just on the straight coming up the hill from the carousel. That track was a handful without it!

Recap: More experience makes for better times. Headers, exhaust and brakes first, N20 next, and then practice until you puke.

As for me, I just ordered my new Exedy clutch from Dali, am working on my new suspension plan and just filled my two bottles, so prepare yourselves. This year should be fun.

-Ed
www.nsxbuilder.com
 
Given the responses to Gobble in this post I felt compelled to responsed. You see I am the E46 M3 Gobble is trying to keep up with. Let me strart by saying I think the NSX is a great car. Wonderful lines, great engineering, resonably quick on the track - anyone should be proud to own one. Second I am fortunate enough to be in the economic position of being able to afford any fun car I wish up to the level of a 360 Modena. Given that I chose an E46 M3, why?

Before that discussion let's clear a few things up about Gobble. Gobble is actually quite a good driver, in fact he is an instructor at the Milwaukee PCA DEs, as am I. Second Gobble is quick and regularly toasts non turbo 911s and just about any other non-modified make. When I tracked an E36 M3 we were about the same track speed, albeit Gobble had 30 hp on the E36. Finally a few of you really ought to know what your talking about when you make statements, your ignorance makes you look foolish. Example one, I am looking at the acceptance information for the Milwaukee PCA event at Road America on May 8. There are three run groups, four run sessions each and a fifth for groups II and III. each session 1/2 hour. It should be apparent that different PCA and BMWCCA locals will run different depending on participants etc. Example two, the weight of the E46 M3. BMW publishes model weights with a 150 lbs. driver, 15 lbs. of luggage, 90% fuel load and a commonly optioned car. Thus the weight published of 3,450 equates to about 3,200, in addition I didn't order a sun roof or power seats to further reduce weight. Consequently I run around 3,150 dry. Finally I have Koni DA suspension, all sperical , camber plates etc as well as a BBK and run 265/35 Rs all the way around on the track.

Now let's look at the E46 M3. When you can afford just about any car you want why this one. Plain and simple if you want a car to run on a track you can't beat it. Why did I conclude this? Its based upon results. Go back to the 2001 ALMS season. Team PTG puts a 4L V8 in a M3 so that it can come close to the HP of the Porsche Cups, vettes, turbo NSXs run by Cunningham etc. Results, manufactures win, driver win complete domination, why?. Next look at Speed World in 2003. In the touring car group running 325s Turner Motorsports dominates (driver and manufacturer) with outrageous weight penalties, why?. In the GT class PTG runs M3s with the 3.2L six, they are out horsepowered by 100 or more by every other car in the class yet on the short tracks they dominate, why? Heres why. BMW just got it right. The 3 series, particularly the M3, is a blazingly fast track car because the geometry and dynamics are better, its designed to excell on the track. Unless it is seriously out horsepowered the M3 is just a faster car on the track. Its as simple as that.

We all make car selections based on personal preference and objectives. The NSX is a great car and if you want a two seat sports car that looks like a ferrarri at a reasonable price it is a great buy. But if you want a car that can be a track monster at an outrageous bargin the M3 is the car for you. This isn't a knock on the NSX its just a fact.

In conclusion, rather then giving Gobble a hard time why don't you just focus on helpful suggestions.
 
NOS Shmoss...

You don't see many cars at LeMans running NOS, do you?

Come to think of it, NOS isn't used in F1, WRC, DTM, SCCA, Grand AM, Champ Cars, IRL, Formula Mazda, Formula Holden, etc...

I'm thinking that between the FIA, SCCA, and other organizers, there isn't someone just now noticing and saying, "Hey, we should have the drivers use NOS! It's cheap, and as we say around here, 'Cheap is good.'"

1. It's unsafe in an accident. You NOS fanatics have obviously use the same rational as motorcycle drivers that don't wear helmets.

2. It's bad for your engine. Why don't you spend your money on high compression pistons, head work, and cams? Using NOS, you'll be rebuilding your engine at some point anyway.

3. It's illegal in ALL REAL road racing.

I know this saying applies to computer software development, but I think it's apt here.

"Do you want it soon, cheap, or good? Pick two."
 
Good points!

I'm glad to see that none of the racing series you mentioned EVER has a motor failure. Think of the money they save not having to rebuild motors between races! Maybe McLaren has been running N2O...

I see you've done some drag racing. You know that there are a slew of series that not only allow N20 but demand it to be competitive? Ever hear of the IHRA? I thought N2O was too dangerous?

Not that its never happened, but I scoured the web and I couldn't find a single mention of a death attributed to to presence of N2O in a racing crash. You'd think if this were a huge danger there'd be import racers dead from explosions all over the place. Car's gas tanks are more likely to be a problem in a wreck. Bottles have exploded in building fires, but so does EVERYTHING that can combust. Now there are plenty of auto erotic asphyxiation cases out there - I hope that's not what you were talking about as "unsafe".

I see that you have a future wish list for your NSX with a super charger on it. Are you having your motor taken apart first, changing the pistons, cams and head to correctly handle it or are you doing it the "easy way" by bolting it on? Ever talk to a guy with a supercharger that had to have his motor rebuilt? I have. If the kit is right for the car, it works within the limits of the motors design - just like the Comptech SC! How cool is that?

I don't think gobble was looking to go after Schumacher in competition - he wanted to know if N2O was being used at the track and if so, how effectively.

There, I feel better.

-Ed
www.nsxbuilder.com
 
I'm glad you feel better

but you're still wrong about using NOS on a road course and, that is an old wish list.
 
mab said:
Given the responses to Gobble in this post I felt compelled to responsed. You see I am the E46 M3 Gobble is trying to keep up with. Let me strart by saying I think the NSX is a great car. Wonderful lines, great engineering, resonably quick on the track - anyone should be proud to own one. Second I am fortunate enough to be in the economic position of being able to afford any fun car I wish up to the level of a 360 Modena. Given that I chose an E46 M3, why?

Before that discussion let's clear a few things up about Gobble. Gobble is actually quite a good driver, in fact he is an instructor at the Milwaukee PCA DEs, as am I. Second Gobble is quick and regularly toasts non turbo 911s and just about any other non-modified make. When I tracked an E36 M3 we were about the same track speed, albeit Gobble had 30 hp on the E36. Finally a few of you really ought to know what your talking about when you make statements, your ignorance makes you look foolish. Example one, I am looking at the acceptance information for the Milwaukee PCA event at Road America on May 8. There are three run groups, four run sessions each and a fifth for groups II and III. each session 1/2 hour. It should be apparent that different PCA and BMWCCA locals will run different depending on participants etc. Example two, the weight of the E46 M3. BMW publishes model weights with a 150 lbs. driver, 15 lbs. of luggage, 90% fuel load and a commonly optioned car. Thus the weight published of 3,450 equates to about 3,200, in addition I didn't order a sun roof or power seats to further reduce weight. Consequently I run around 3,150 dry. Finally I have Koni DA suspension, all sperical , camber plates etc as well as a BBK and run 265/35 Rs all the way around on the track.

Now let's look at the E46 M3. When you can afford just about any car you want why this one. Plain and simple if you want a car to run on a track you can't beat it. Why did I conclude this? Its based upon results. Go back to the 2001 ALMS season. Team PTG puts a 4L V8 in a M3 so that it can come close to the HP of the Porsche Cups, vettes, turbo NSXs run by Cunningham etc. Results, manufactures win, driver win complete domination, why?. Next look at Speed World in 2003. In the touring car group running 325s Turner Motorsports dominates (driver and manufacturer) with outrageous weight penalties, why?. In the GT class PTG runs M3s with the 3.2L six, they are out horsepowered by 100 or more by every other car in the class yet on the short tracks they dominate, why? Heres why. BMW just got it right. The 3 series, particularly the M3, is a blazingly fast track car because the geometry and dynamics are better, its designed to excell on the track. Unless it is seriously out horsepowered the M3 is just a faster car on the track. Its as simple as that.

We all make car selections based on personal preference and objectives. The NSX is a great car and if you want a two seat sports car that looks like a ferrarri at a reasonable price it is a great buy. But if you want a car that can be a track monster at an outrageous bargin the M3 is the car for you. This isn't a knock on the NSX its just a fact.

In conclusion, rather then giving Gobble a hard time why don't you just focus on helpful suggestions.

What lap times do you run @ RA with your E46? and how about gobble? I will be there next weekend, and will be doing a lot of lap timing on E46's and will be comparing them to all of the NA NSX times that I know of.

P.S. PD had a charger NOT a turbo, and at a very very low boost
for SPEED WC oh yeah BTW didn't the 1.8L NA Tegs crush the 3 series for years? I know I did with mine at RA :p

I am not knocking the E46 M3, cause I love them as well!! They look bad ass and sound just as good. Both cars can be made equally fast with bolt-ons....the difference is that we can do it with a 13 yr old car :D
 
RP-Motorsports said:
What lap times do you run @ RA with your E46? and how about gobble? I will be there next weekend, and will be doing a lot of lap timing on E46's and will be comparing them to all of the NA NSX times that I know of.

P.S. PD had a charger NOT a turbo, and at a very very low boost
for SPEED WC oh yeah BTW didn't the 1.8L NA Tegs crush the 3 series for years? I know I did with mine at RA :p

I am not knocking the E46 M3, cause I love them as well!! They look bad ass and sound just as good. Both cars can be made equally fast with bolt-ons....the difference is that we can do it with a 13 yr old car :D

MAB made a good point about the tone of Gobble’s responses some of them had more rhetoric criticism the helpful advise,
But… MAB obviously doesn’t know what goes into a Race car… especially a World Challenge car. The elusion of resembling the OE counterpart is the design of this pro series. These cars are purpose built race cars with everything redesigned including the general geometry of the suspension, Most everything is replaced and improved… even the frame structure is redesigned and practically superseded by the new generation of caging. The BMWs are good neutral handling cars and rank high as a sedan, but it’s not a supercar or a race car. It can be turned into one like any car, and why you see it doing well is teams like Turner that can reconstruct any car. RTR has built an Integra, an RSX, and a TSX that have beaten the BMW,s… you do understand that this doesn’t make them better OE race cars… don’t you? The BMW lets you fit into a bigger crowd, but some don’t like to be the same as the majority, the BMW also is a good compromise when needing to tote a baby seat. These are normal reasons for wanting one, but to compare it to a Medina? I’m a BMW car club of America member and I think they make good practical compromise in a good handling easy car to drive (easy like the Miata), that and advertising is why so many people buy them.


Oh, PD was limited to 7 lbs. of boost.

The Cadillac’s, Mustangs, and GTO beat the BMW in Grand Am… better sell that M car, pass by the Ferrari dealer and get a new GTO.
 
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