NHTSA is banning ALL HID "kits"

[ChrisK]

I looked at the RX330 in detail when I first saw the car, I was kinda confused as to why the light itself was fully clear. I paid very close attention to it while driving, and noticed that the lights had a very quick reaction time, typical of LED. I have not taken apart those lights before, but I then did research on the Internet and eventually stumbled over several reviews of the new RX, like this one:

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/020302.html

which describe the tail lights as LED. Here is a quote off that site:

"The tail lamps have gone from something of a cat’s eye appearance to being much more integrated with the C-pillar, which has a character line that is flush with the top of the tail lamp. The tail lamps (LED lights are used) then meet up with the back window glass.

When I look at the tail lights closely in person, I too see the red cylinder.. which is quite confusing. BUT, I cant really place my finger on it just yet. Personally, I am going to stick to my guns and say its LED.. hopefully the articles I've read are not wrong!

Well, I just checked my RX330 and unfortunately, I can't remove the actual bulb. I can physically get my hand on it but I can't twist the little sucker out. It is a very tight space and it may just be tight. On a good note. My owners manual does list all the bulb locations and replacement numbers. The tail lights/brake lights are clearly listed as a 168 bulb type (Clear), 5 Watts, wedge base.

 

[topdaytrader]

you can still buy them at http://www.motionr.com

 

[old_S13]

Ken, I simply cannot agree with your posts. Whether its your views on upgrading HID, or your rude comments in the other thread about clear side-markers.

Obviously, you are well known in this forum having registered back in 2000 and having over 10,800 posts. I have not been a part of NSXprime for more than 1 month and have only 25 posts. You are more a part of this forum than I am, I dont want to sit here and banter back and fourth about lighting, I just wanted to speak my view on the matter.

Even though I have not been apart of this forum for too long, I have many NSX customers who have known me for years and have had nothing but good things to say about my company and products. Like I said, we were the first to offer ANY lighting components for the NSX, and we will continue to offer the highest quality products for this and various other vehicles we support.

I know we may not meet eye to eye, but do try to understand that many other experienced professionals in the lighting industry DO understand the various issues I have brought up in this thread. I would think the NHTSA's involvement would only further reinforce my points, but I guess your views are set.


I agree with Mike; I can only guess that the only reason you are posting here is to diss other vendors and possibly to prepare for your upcoming efforts at marketing a competing product. Otherwise there would be no reason for you to make disparaging remarks about someone's installation sight unseen.

Well, let me ask you this. If indeed what you wrote is true. Why are these so-called reputable companies purging their stock of HID kits. If these kits ARE so excellent, then why are these companies not standing behind them and supporting them? Examples:
www.suvlights.com - www.liteswap.com - www.umnitza.com

Like I said, we are not interested in competing with these retrofit-grade HID kits that are being sold at bargain prices of $400-600. Our conversions are not simple bolt-on affairs and usually run much more than that.

Anyway, lets agree to disagree. No sense in bantering.

 

[old_S13]

Well, I just checked my RX330 and unfortunately, I can't remove the actual bulb. I can physically get my hand on it but I can't twist the little sucker out. It is a very tight space and it may just be tight. On a good note. My owners manual does list all the bulb locations and replacement numbers. The tail lights/brake lights are clearly listed as a 168 bulb type (Clear), 5 Watts, wedge base.

hehe chris, a 5 watt bulb is hardly sufficient for brake light use. Dont mean to burst your bubble, but the 168 style bulb is a single filament bulb intended to be used in dome lights and sidemarkers.

Here is an example (unfortunately the only pic I could find is a hyper white bulb, sigh):

 

[mikec]

Posted by old_S13
Based on what MikeC said, he is pleased with the results. He says the NSX took to the conversion extremely well "because of its original low-beam design." I am a bit confused, what does this mean? Is there such thing as an un-original lowbeam design? Last I checked, EVERY car sold in the US had both high and low beam, I am still confused on the use of the word original and how the NSX headlamps are ANY different than that of lets say, the 96 Integra. Mike's conclusion is that when done right, you get more light in the same spots without blinding oncoming drivers. I disagree. I am not saying that the kit is BLINDING to other drivers, especially since the NSX is so low. However, I am saying that if you compare the light created by a halogen NSX headlamp, and a HID converted NSX headlamp, you will see irregularities in the HID NSX headlamp.



MikeC says:
I am so sorry that your confused. I am going to dedicate myself to un-confusing you. I'm sure going to do my darndest and I hope I'm successful because in my profession I write manuals and teach technical details to the poor confused souls in the world.

I will now attempt, with crystal clarity, to describe what I meant by "original design", as it pertains to the NSX low beam headlight, not Ralph Laren, nor Halston.

Lesson 1: Projector vs. Reflector, or what's a Hubble for?
The original design (original because I don't believe that the NSX low beam headlight assembly was made to fit any other car) is that of what is commonly called a "projector" type of headlight system. A projector type of headlight housing uses a small reflector to concentrate the light from the bulb and reflect it through a series of optically designed lenses that focus and define its beam patter. Projector lamps are found on some, but not all, high-end cars. The other type of headlamp is that of a simple reflector design as found on the 1990 Subaru Legacy AWD wagon that I loved for nearly 5 years. But I’m sure your not interested in my personal life so in the name of crystal clarity we'll keep this discussion technical.

A reflector headlight system uses a larger reflector, i.e. mirror, behind the bulb to reflect the light towards the road. The shape of the mirror alone without a lens in front defines the focus and beam pattern of the light hitting the road and is much less precise and controlled than a projector system. Perhaps reflector type of headlights do not make good conversion candidates for HID. I don't know because my Subaru was not worth spending the money on for me to find out..... sorry.. I got carried away with more life info about me.

So.. to summarize, It is my belief that a projector system may work better with retrofit HID than a reflector system.

Lesson 2: the bulb.

The bulb contains a huge glass envelope into which is built a tiny light source. In a tungsten bulb such as the original (see dissertation above for my use of the word "original") bulb that the factory put into your NSX and my late Subaru, the light source is a series of coils of wire; the whole thing being about .25 inches long. In layman's terms.. this is where da light comes from. Oh.. I better explain that the light is created by the little coil of metal, usually a tungsten alloy, getting very, very hot. Don't ask me why metal emits light when it gets hot, trust me.. it just does.

In an HID bulb you have the same huge glass envelope but the light source is that of a glass capsule, which is about the same size as the tungsten filament in your original bulb, inside the envelope There are two electrodes in either end of this tiny glass capsule, when high voltage is applied, an electric arc is created that heats and fluoresces some special gas inside the capsule to the point where it produces light of a most intense nature. In fact for its size, it produces roughly 2.5 times as much light as the tungsten bulb. Now the point of all this is that for the beam pattern of your converted headlight to remain the correct and original pattern that the headlight assembly was built to produce, the light source from the HID bulb must occupy the same spatial coordinates as the bulb it replaces. In other words, even though the glass envelope is a different size and shape form the original bulb, if you compare the HID and Halogen bulb (that’s the type of tungsten bulb that originally came in the NSX) side by side, you should see that using the mounting base as the reference point, in a properly manufactured HID bulb the little glass capsule is in the same location as the filament in the other bulb.

This may not be the case with cheap kits and if the light source is not in the exact location as the origional bulbs that the car came with, then the light patters will most defiantly not be the same and I would guess that it the difference would not be an improvement.

In both the kits that I’ve installed:

1. The HID bulbs were made correctly.
2. They went into projector type headlights.

My results with both cars is that:

1. I have a very similar beam pattern compared to the original bulbs.

2. Within the original beam pattern the light is much brighter and of a different color temperature such that whatever is illuminated takes on more natural colors such as when the sun is shining in the daytime. Of course the sun shines at night too, but the earth is too big and it gets in the way so you can't see it shining, but trust me on this one too, the people on the other side can see it fine.


Thank you so much for your attention as I have done my best to present my opinion clearly and without confusion.

The best of regards,
MikeC

 

[nsxtasy]

Ken, I simply cannot agree with your posts. Whether its your views on upgrading HID, or your rude comments in the other thread about clear side-markers.

I have not presented "views on upgrading HID". I have simply presented my experience with HID lights on three cars. You have chosen to criticize the experiences that other people have had and make claims about those experiences without seeing the cars or knowing what's installed in them. I simply don't think that's fair.

As for the comments in the other topic, it was not rude - I made a joke (complete with smiley face to indicate that it was a joke), and you took my comment completely out of context to criticize it. By doing so, you are the one who is guilty of rude behavior.

The simple fact is, Mike, you seem to be very confrontational in your posts - claiming that other people's experiences can't be true, picking apart other people's words, taking quotes out of context to criticize them, etc. Instead of doing so, I suggest you stick to informing people about what you know, about lighting and regulations (and your products, if you like). These forums are for us to share knowledge - not for flaming people who do so.

 

[ChrisK]

I know we may not meet eye to eye, but do try to understand that many other experienced professionals in the lighting industry DO understand the various issues I have brought up in this thread. I would think the NHTSA's involvement would only further reinforce my points, but I guess your views are set.

My personaly view is that the too many so called "Professionals" are blanketly lumping all HID conversion kits together. IMHO and experience, there are some great halogen projector optics that even with HID conversion kits are much better in controlling light dispersion than some of the older refector halogen optics on certain cars. It is my understanding that US lighting code calls for more upward throw of light (I don't know the exact proper term) than E code lights. This is because US buyers complain that they can't see the overhead road signs well enough. It has been my understanding that countries that have adopted E code don't have nearly as many "Blinding HID" complaints as the US. I'm pretty sure if you talk to the same professionals in your industry they will agree like other automotive lighting engineers that US lighting code is among the worse in the world. We should just adopt E code already. Anyway, the point is that some OEM halogen optics are indeed okay for use with HID. I have seen a few Lexus cars (And I'm sure there are others) that have halogen optics but the optic housing is stamp D2R.

Anyway, my long point is that we all can agree that majority of halogen optics is not designed for HID, and will show some signs of irregularities, but it may not be that bad at all and hardly noticeably on certain optics. In many cases these retrofit HIDs are less bothersome than your simple misaligned halogen light. The NHSTA themselves I believe stated that during their study of HID lights they have had less complaints about HIDS than for raised vehicles like SUVs and trucks where the healight is at eye level of the drivers in front.

Either way, I don't care since I'll be duing a full OEM biXenon D2S conversion anyway.

 

[ChrisK]

hehe chris, a 5 watt bulb is hardly sufficient for brake light use. Dont mean to burst your bubble, but the 168 style bulb is a single filament bulb intended to be used in dome lights and sidemarkers.

Here is an example (unfortunately the only pic I could find is a hyper white bulb, sigh):

I realize that. But that is what the owners manual says. Don't worry, I will get that particular ligth out and verify for myself. If you look closely through the red cylinder, it does apper to be a small wedge bulb though. It could very well be a clear LED, but we will wait and see. The manual does list the tail lights as the 5W 168 in more than one locations. So while it could be a misprint, it is in more places than one.

 

[old_S13]

I realize that. But that is what the owners manual says. Don't worry, I will get that particular ligth out and verify for myself. If you look closely through the red cylinder, it does apper to be a small wedge bulb though. It could very well be a clear LED, but we will wait and see. The manual does list the tail lights as the 5W 168 in more than one locations. So while it could be a misprint, it is in more places than one.

It may be mentioned, but I assure you this bulb is not responsible for parking/brake function. Its just not adequate. Chances are, that bulb is used as a side-marker built into the tail light.

- Mike

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

NHTSA has not created any new legislation because there was already preemptive regulations governing these types of products. Sadly, the regulations are antiquated, and have very little relevance to HID products. What they are doing now is taking an aggressive actions to eliminate these types of products. Since NHTSA does not have real local governing power, they are accomplishing this by cutting off supply. Many of the major manufactures and distributors have already been notified through cease and desist documents. A date of August 15th has been assigned to have these manufactures and distributors respond with acknowledgement of these demands including significant fines after this date if these companies are not in compliance. Unfortunately, the cease and desist letters are very vague, and many businesses are confused on how the cut-off date is defined, and whether there will be any unlikely professional courtesy buffer time to allow these companies to minimize losses.

Sadly, the generic universal kits used on reflector headlight applications likely motivated these actions and products designed for suitable applications will suffer. The safety that HID affords to NSX drivers at night, and the safe lighting output a properly designed kit emits is unfortunately irrelevant in the big picture.

What we are doing now is stocking spare parts so we can continue to offer warranty support for our existing customers.

Regards,
-- Chris

 

[JChoice]

Just my opinion: I think the issue is with non-projector lamp upgrades. The HID looks pretty poor in non-projector lamps and they flood everywhere.

My HID kit is clearly providing excellent light - trained or untrained eye.

 

[nsxxtreme]

My question is how does anyone issue a cease and desist order on something that was intended for of road use only to begin with?

This is like issuing a cease and desist order on aftermarket turbo's, none of which are street legal.

How do they get a way with this? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Juice]

NHTSA has not created any new legislation because there was already preemptive regulations governing these types of products. Sadly, the regulations are antiquated, and have very little relevance to HID products. What they are doing now is taking an aggressive actions to eliminate these types of products. Since NHTSA does not have real local governing power, they are accomplishing this by cutting off supply. Many of the major manufactures and distributors have already been notified through cease and desist documents. A date of August 15th has been assigned to have these manufactures and distributors respond with acknowledgement of these demands including significant fines after this date if these companies are not in compliance. Unfortunately, the cease and desist letters are very vague, and many businesses are confused on how the cut-off date is defined, and whether there will be any unlikely professional courtesy buffer time to allow these companies to minimize losses.

Sadly, the generic universal kits used on reflector headlight applications likely motivated these actions and products designed for suitable applications will suffer. The safety that HID affords to NSX drivers at night, and the safe lighting output a properly designed kit emits is unfortunately irrelevant in the big picture.

What we are doing now is stocking spare parts so we can continue to offer warranty support for our existing customers.

Regards,
-- Chris

Chris, does this mean you will not be able to get any more kits starting now?

 

[NSXDreamer2]

I need to add that most people thinks the Non-projector with HID retrofit was the one to blame, I personally had an E-code JDM style headlights on the Accord and I can adjust all four lights individually (Low and High beam) so that won't be a problem.

The one who really needed to blame are the ones that only use one double filament bulb for both Hi/Lo beam ie: 9004, 9007, H4.... Civic, Maxima, CRV, altima, Miata, just to name a few.

 

[old_S13]

The above images show a DC2 Integra fitted with HID headlamps. The projectors are very similar to that found on the NSX, so I would say the comparison is pretty fair.

In image 1, you can see that the light has a very heavy hot-spot in front of the car. While many people perceive this as more light, it is really just more unmanaged light. Clearly, there is not enough spread and instead, too much light thrown directly in-front of the vehicle. Image 2 shows the sharp cutoff, typical of projector headlamps. However, pay close attention and you will still notice that there is too much light in front, not enough on the sides. Only remedy for this is to swap the internals of the projector assemblies ALONG with using a factory D2S bulb.

Yes, it isnt as much of an issue with projector-fitted vehicles.. but in the recent change, its all for the better. Some people want OEM-quality lighting, some are willing to accept retrofit-grade light.. buyer beware.

 

[old_S13]

The above shows an image of an OEM HID setup, for comparison's sake.

Nice wide spread, no hotspots, sharp cutoff, right flare for signs.

 

[mikec]

I agree that the results you are showing from the Integra show an unevenness of light and I would not be pleased with that.



The results from my NSX and Audi are far different from that and appear even and close to my 01 Acura CL.

I will try to take pictures tonight of all three cars and show you my results.

 

[sc boosted nSx]

how many idiots does it take to screw in a light bulb?????


NONE!!!!!!! because they are arguing and disrespecting each other over a damn light bulb. whats next "my dad can beat up your dad", take it easy fellas!

 

[supergreen125]

FYI guys....
there is a pic in the faq (do it yourself) section of this site of the autolamps (now hid-online.com) kit shining on the road at night.
looks pretty damn good to me. much better than the pic above of the integra.
also.... hid-online is in england... which means all this talk of hid kits becoming illegal to produce in the states has nothing to do with them.

 

[myf16]

JDM lights

I need to add that most people thinks the Non-projector with HID retrofit was the one to blame, I personally had an E-code JDM style headlights on the Accord and I can adjust all four lights individually (Low and High beam) so that won't be a problem.

JDM lights are designed for driving on the left, so the patterns will be incorrect for use in the USA.

 

[myf16]

NSX early JDM HIDs

I cant speak for everyone, but *I* know that the 91-01 never came with HID, it was only recently introduced in 2002.

In the USA, yes. Japan has had an HID option since 1997. But they drive on the wrong side of the road over there.

If somebody could get a JDM HID from 97-01, cut it open and compare it to a JDM halogen light, we could see just how much the designs differ. I believe that in general the higher the quality of the design the less sensitive it will be to precise location and size of the light source.

 

[ChrisK]

It may be mentioned, but I assure you this bulb is not responsible for parking/brake function. Its just not adequate. Chances are, that bulb is used as a side-marker built into the tail light.

- Mike

Well, it looks like we are both correct. I finally was able to get the tail light/brake light bulb out. It is indeed a 168 5W bulb in the center of that red cylinder tube. However, the system uses that 5W 168 bulb conbined with small clear LEDs soldered directly on the printed circuit board. In my tests, it it clearly shows that the LEDs and the 5W 168 center bulb are both on and active during brake light and tail light functions. My guess is that the center bulb is used to fill in with light the area between the LEDS since LEDs are much more directional. This I guess gives you the best of both worlds. Low power consumption with instant ON for brake lights and the bulb fills everything in so it looks more conventional and not so point source like other LED tail lights (G35 comes to mind). Anyway, I can verify that both are used for tail light brake light functions as it is clearly labled that way on the back of the cluster when I took it out to inspect. They just work together as one unit. My guess is that the manual does not list the LEDs since they are not user replaceable as the entire circuit board appears to need replacing if it ever comes to that, and LEDs should probably last the lifetime of the car anyway.

 

[ChrisK]

Re: NSX early JDM HIDs

In the USA, yes. Japan has had an HID option since 1997. But they drive on the wrong side of the road over there.

If somebody could get a JDM HID from 97-01, cut it open and compare it to a JDM halogen light, we could see just how much the designs differ. I believe that in general the higher the quality of the design the less sensitive it will be to precise location and size of the light source.

What about the European market? Did they get HIDs like the JDMs? If so, that could be a good choice since many European countries are left and drive like the USA.

 

[mikec]

My HID pics

I took some pics tonight of my HID lights. Unfortunatly, the ones on the road are blurry because I didn't hold the camera still enough, and the shutter speed is low. But, they are good enough to give you a good idea of the illumination characteristics.

the pics are located in my Yahoo photo album entitled HID. Feel free to check out my other albums, especially the NSX hat. I use it all the time.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/mikes928/lst?.dir=/HID+lights&.view=tview=t

There are two pics for each car. The first shows the cutoff point with the lights shining on my garage door from a distance of 25 feet. Notice how sharp all three cars are. I did adjust the headlamps up a bit on the NSX and even more on the audi to gain some greater visibility distance, but not so high as to shine into the rear window of cars. Notice too how the left light is lower than the right as not to blind oncoming drivers.

In all the pics, notice how even the light is compaired with the CL. There are no hot spots at all. The quality of light is definatly better on the NSX than the Audi so that tells me that not all cars and/or kits are equal. The audi uses projector low beams also, but they are much smaller and like a round fisheye compaired to the NSX's large and oval shaped lens.

The three cars are:

1. 01 NSX with Philips components and 4100K bulbs from www.autolampsonline.com

2. 97 Audi A6 with Hella ballast and 5200K bulbs from www.misterjung.com

3. 02 Acura CL with factory HID

NSX.jpg: Notice the sharp cutoff point and the spread of light on the left and right. Notice how it illuminates the stone on the left and the gas tank to the grill. Compair that with CL.jpg.

NSX1.jpg. Notice the illumination of the road sign to the right and the painted lines. Notice the evenness of the spread of light. As you can see, I have the headlights adjusted to give me a bit more distance than the CL.

CL.jpg. The CL has a more flat cutoff and throws a bit more light to the side, but not much.. you be the judge.

CL1.jpg. All three cars were in the same position on the road when these pics were taken. Notice that the useable distance is a bit less than the NSX.

The Audi pics are for comparison and show that there are no nasty or unacceptable hot spots. However, I feel that it was not as fine a conversion as the NSX and I'm not sure if it is because of the headlight characteristics, or that I used a cheap kit. Howerver, it is much better than the stock halogen lights.

Hope the pics helped.

I also want to make it clear that I'm not trying to start a war with old_S13. If he is working on a DOT approved headlight conversion i'm sure it will be a fine product.

My point is to tell the NSX community that an aftermarket kit CAN be sucessful on the NSX. Mine proves it, and i've talked to several other list members who have HID kits installed and they agree.

I also talked to an NSX owner who installed a kit he didn't like and actually removed it. The only thing I can think of is that not all kits are equal. I think his used blue colored bulbs. My NSX has 4100K bulbs which throw the most useable light. As the color temp goes up, the light gets bluer and harder to see. At the exterme end are the blue coated bulbs that make it appear even more blue and i've heard to stay away from them because visibility is not good at all. The person I speak of has just ordered the same Philips kit that I have. I hope after he gets it installed he will post his results as he has had the benifit of having another HID kit previously installed. Lets hear a comparision.



Best regards,
Mike Clemens

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

The Japanese/Euro headlights use H1, so they would not be a drop-in.

Regards,
-- Chris