New NSX

maybe it is the honda DNA.
porsche and ferrari began as offshoots of racing programs.
honda began by making mopeds, although Soichiro did dream about racing.
i think the NSX was an anomaly that was created to fulfill an adolescent dream of Sochiro before he died.
we may have quite the collector's item on our hands!!
Soichiro Honda strong vision and his full involvement in the NSX project is what led the NSX to leave its legacy. NSX was Mr. Honda's baby and he had the balls to say "cost be damned" and "make me the world best sports car." He wanted nothing but the best. In the development stage, Honda worked with Pininafarina for early prototypes of the NSX. Production would be done at a newly built and dedicated Tochigi assembley plant using non-traditional assembly process to ensure utmost quality. Assembly line workers were all hand picked.

In the early years of the development, there are NSX mules driving around with V8 and V12. It was later determined that these engine would result in excessive weight and it disrupts the balance of the car. The target weight was 3000 lbs and 250 horsepower. The 91 NSX weight in at 3050 lbs, hence Honda dialed in 270 horses to compensate.

With his passing in 1991, his vision may live on in the leaders that followed, but the passion is gone. It takes a leader with strong conviction and passion to build an NSX. After Soichiro, the CEOs that followed including Fukui may have been great leaders and but they are politicians who tries to make everyone happy. As a result, there are compromises. We have cars designed by a committee. Honda's vision lived because we have NSX updates in 1997 and 2002. But there was no one with a passion driving it hence the updates took so long to coming and the technology /design wasn't fully updated.

The sales volumes were low and it was hard to justify the investments, but a leader with strong conviction would have carried on the torch with the same passion that Soichiro did. A vehicle like this needs not turn a profit because it captures our dreams and it shows Honda's pride to the world.

Things has changed. The painstaking details Mr. Honda went thru is longer in place. In 2004, NSX production was moved to a mainstream plant. What happend to exquisit attention with a team based assembly operation? Now we have V10 because that what the public wants. What happend to balance and lightweight that the NSX exceled in? We have car design by team in LA who worked on the Acura TL instead of working with the best experienced sports car designers in the world.

Porsche is fine example of what is gone right. Their vision and passion are will intact. They stay true to their heritage and doesn't give in to trends. They still use 6 cylinders for their bread and butter sports cars. As a result, the cars evolve and the owners come back, and new owners sign on. It is same formula for the most part. Porsche is almost anti-technology unless there is a true driver benfit. While I don't care for their looks, many do, because they feel it is a timeless design. Their design evolves, but not by much from generation to generation. This is how you build a heritage and a following. No wonder that in the last few years, the company is recognized with the most profit per vehicle sale.

IF honda wants to continue making sports cars, they can learn a few things from Porsche. Stick with something good, build on it, evolve it and the heritage and the public following will come. Bring back the NSX formula.
 
maybe it is the honda DNA.
porsche and ferrari began as offshoots of racing programs.
honda began by making mopeds, although Soichiro did dream about racing.
i think the NSX was an anomaly that was created to fulfill an adolescent dream of Sochiro before he died.
we may have quite the collector's item on our hands!!

Couldn't agree with you more. No profit for a long time makes it really hard for executives to *continue* to justify the business of the vehicle by releasing a 'true' new MR NSX.

And although Honda may have the potential to be a Porsche - it is not, and thus to conitnue to lose money by creating a NSX that will make NSXPRIME enthusiast happy, is, has been, and will be a losing venture.

Secondly, Honda is in the business to sell cars in the range of 18K (Civic ?) - > 60/70K, whereas with the exception of the Boxter, Porsches' start in the 60K range and go to the 150K+ range...
 
A new view point??

I think it is finally starting to sink in. As much as I hate to admit it, Acura is choosing the right path in abandoning its rabid NSX fan base. Like the cars we own and admire, the NSX is a thing of the past. Honda did not want another NSX. They wanted to introduce the next leap forward in Honda engineering. This car was never meant to lure us away from the NSX, it was meant to replace it: ENTIRELY.

The Advance is going to be as different tomorrow as the NSX was back in 1990. It is meant to polarize its audience. It is designed to be an opposite to what we have come to know from Acura. It is a radical departure from what we would have expected. Just like the NSX was.

I can't say I like the Advance; I am just now starting to understand why it was built. This is not a successor. This is a departure. New rules, no preconceived notions, and a blank slate of performance potential. We don't even have any clue of what it can do. And as much as I dislike the new engine layout, who am I to say that this car will not be 100 times more successful on the track and in sales?

Or maybe I just had some bad pizza and didn't get any sleep. Read here to see what someone from the non-NSX society is thinking.
 
This is crazy. Pages and pages of mostly grows a$$ men whining about a concept design. It's a no brainer; if you don’t like it don’t buy it, just quit with the complaining!!
 
This is crazy. Pages and pages of mostly grows a$$ men whining about a concept design. It's a no brainer; if you don’t like it don’t buy it, just quit with the complaining!!

Whoa, that's harsh. :D

A guy whining about other people whining, I'll bet you don't see that going on everyday. :)

But you know, we are still entitled to have our own opinions, even as adults. And you are also entitled to yours. ;) Did I mention something about the back button on this browser? :p :D
 
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This is crazy. Pages and pages of mostly grows a$$ men whining about a concept design. It's a no brainer; if you don’t like it don’t buy it, just quit with the complaining!!

"Daddy I want a Blue Car!" :wink:

Cheese with the wine.
 
I'm not disappointed in the fact that Acura (Purposefully not referring to Honda) is thinking better for profit and mass attraction, but at the fact they are trying to relate this to the NSX by showing an NSX in the background. This car is not F1 inspired as was the NSX, nor will it carry any of it's spirit. They should not even mention the NSX in the same sentence unless it goes as follows: "We will take what we learned from the NSX and create a new ground breaking vehicle as our new halo." But, they are treating this car like it is a successor and not a replacement. I just hope to god that they don't name it NSX!
 
This is crazy. Pages and pages of mostly grows a$$ men whining about a concept design. It's a no brainer; if you don’t like it don’t buy it, just quit with the complaining!!
I think the "whining" is our way of trying to convince honda of changing their minds as well as venting disappointment.
 
I totally agree, that's why lets not stop wining!:smile: Because hopefully we will win from wining!:biggrin:
 
I think the "whining" is our way of trying to convince honda of changing their minds as well as venting disappointment.

That's precisely the point! And it's our job as loyal Honda fans to insure that the company is taking strides toward the right direction. How did you think Porsche got this far with their 911's, after all these years? If we aren't so die-hard loyal to Honda, we would've just kept our mouths shut. I like to think that Honda is monitoring this thread and taking measures to satisfy their loyal customers who gives them a chance to improve by being brutally honest instead of abandoning them by not voicing our opinions and spend our hard earned money elsewhere.

Fukui-san, thank you for reading this thread. ;)
 
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FWIW: Yep, the NSX probably did not turn a profit for Honda, but the NSX did leave a mark in automotive history.

Food for thought...

Whenever I read posts that state that the CEO of Honda is running a business and that Honda needs to turn a profit on every car that they produce, I start to wonder...

How much $$$'s has Honda spent on their most recent and unsuccesful F1 efforts? 100Million? 200Millon? or more???

Do folks at Honda really believe that a prospective buyer who is looking at a Civic/Accord/CRV/Element/Pilot/Ridgeline/TSX/TL/RDX/MDX/RL really cares about how well they do in F1?? Yeah right :rolleyes:


PS. I whine about the direction that Acura has taken with their next generation "Sports Car" because I actually care about the NSX and know what it is capable of, I didn't own my NSX to just cruise around and to pimp it as some folks do :p. I can't possibly see/imagine someone taking a car like the ASC to the track and actually enjoying it :eek:
 
Whenever I read posts that state that the CEO of Honda is running a business and that Honda needs to turn a profit on every car that they produce, I start to wonder...

How much $$$'s has Honda spent on their most recent and unsuccesful F1 efforts? 100Million? 200Millon? or more???

Perhaps Vance can chime in on Honda F1. This open up a completely new topic.

Just some 3rd person thoughts, don't held me respondsible for my questions. Sponsorship? Advertisting? Name recognition, test bed for newer technology?

Big corporates pay millions in advertisting cost and millions to sponsor F1, are they doing it for the love of racing? I don't watch NASCAR either, but I am more aware of sponsors than any of the drivers.

Honda have already done a perfect MR car. I am not aware of any decent Honda FR other than S2K. Maybe they want to try something different and make a Super GT? If it drive great and performs 80%~90% as well 599gtb for 1/3 of price, why not?

Remember the #1 complaint about NSX even among owners? Had they increased the HP from 290 to 350hp in 97 and up again to 380hp during 02 update. Perhaps it may had done as well as 996/997 in term of numbers of cars sold if they even had capacity to pump out that many NSXes. Different stroke for different folks, some just want all performance aspect covered.

Tracking, carving corners is 1 dimension, there are 2 other dimensions. Just my 02cent.
 
Let me be the first to say, out loud, that I hope this new NSX ( :p) has back seats!

The M6 appeals to me as a third car (to the NSX and to my wifes minivan) because it would be a great tourer and would be good for occasionally stuffing the kids back there.

If this car has back seats, then its in the running once it comes out!

It cant (but doesnt try to) replace the NSX, but I bet that V10 rocks and I want a paddle car to piddle around in. I hope its a good bit less expensive than an M6 also.
 
I would expect to see a car that looks like this from somewhere like Chevy, but not from Honda. The design is a disgrace to the NSX name. Hopefully, enough people will complain to get it canned and replaced.
 
As 2 slow2speed commented, not every product or activity needs to generate a direct profit. How do you measure intangibles such as heightened perception by consumers and technology transfer to other vehicle line. There is a bottom line benefit to the company, even though you can't directly measure it.

With that said, if the NSX formula wasn't profitable, what makes one think the ASC would do any better. We need to understand what made the NSX unprofitable and could the same thing apply to the ASC? More importantly for this community, what will it take for a mid-engine NSX replacement to succeed financially.

What affected the NSX profitability and will this affect ASC? Is it Selling Price, Manufacturing cost, Market timing, Reputation of Marque, Dealership/customer experience, Configuration (MR layout), or Power???

Do you think the ASC will do better financially?
Add points for V10 power giving customer the power they want. Add points for platform sharing potential to control cost.
Subtract points for styling, less exotic FR setup, and reduced handling and feel (Can you say 3700 lbs? Standard Honda issue SH-AWD is 200 lbs, Ferrari 599 is 3500 lbs with 2wd, Ferrari 612 is 3800 lbs. Do the math and stop daydreaming about a 3200 lbs ASC)

As far as building a new NSX and turning a direct profit.

1. Platform sharing - Honda did look at platform sharing the NSX chassis by developing the DN-X (Dual Note in Japan). The vehicle never came to production reality. Too bad, I would have bought it since I have a wife and 2 kids. Honey, we’re taking a cross country road trip thru the mountains in our mid-engine 4 seater sports car.
2. Move more volume thru different engine configuration and price accordingly with V6 and V8 variations.
3. Reduce cost – In 2003, read between the lines at the Honda Japan website on how the HSC was marketed. Based on their marketing, this car was likely a $45 - $60K sports car. It used a slightly modified (stiffenened) version of the NSX chassis. Read – minimal chassis development for cost control.
4. Reduce cost – Use carry over parts where appropriate to reduce development. Use existing suspension pieces, develop new V8 engine using many S2000 internals. Develop new block and crank. 4.4 liter V8 with 460-500 hp.
5. Increase your sales volume by listening to your customer and respond in a timely manner. Example: Corvette was introduced in 1953 with a 6 cylinder. Sales increased gradually and always stepped up with significant changes such as V8 option in 1955, again in 1958 with new body, and stepped up again in 1962 with new engine, and again in1963 with new chassis. Volume started in 3000 units in 1954 and ended at 10,000 units by 1964. Listen up Honda. Pay attention to the history of what the Corvette went thru. All this from a company which sports cars was not their core business and they are able to make a successful business case. To date, volume is around 40K annually.

An HSC with more power and revised styling was what the NSX customer and potential owners wanted, not the ASC.
 
we should wait until the tokyo show to see the almost final version and then pass judgment. I still think they got a mid engine up their sleeves :smile:
 
...and just for giggles...
 

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Whoa, that's harsh. :D

A guy whining about other people whining, I'll bet you don't see that going on everyday. :)

But you know, we are still entitled to have our own opinions, even as adults. And you are also entitled to yours. ;) Did I mention something about the back button on this browser? :p :D

Well said.

However it’s still a little disappointing that (Honda) enthusiasts are behaving this way about a preliminary design. Sure it’s fine to have opinions, but there is a difference between criticism, which could influence change and whining which is a little disrespectful to a design team that has done a lot of hard work. Let’s not forget that Honda has débuted some pretty awesome next gen vehicles before and who’s to say that this won’t happen again.
 
Relax, it's just a concept car that shows a design "direction". I took this on Thursday night during the industry preview show.

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Well said.

However it’s still a little disappointing that (Honda) enthusiasts are behaving this way about a preliminary design. Sure it’s fine to have opinions, but there is a difference between criticism, which could influence change and whining which is a little disrespectful to a design team that has done a lot of hard work. Let’s not forget that Honda has débuted some pretty awesome next gen vehicles before and who’s to say that this won’t happen again.

Were you the lead designer of that group or what???

The NSX was eye popping, jaw dropping :eek: when it was first debuted...It's lines are sleek, beautiful and timeless...I lusted after it from the day I saw it as a young punk..
The ASC on the other hand is UGLY and has no appeal at all...I/we're not whining, we're just stating the obvious...The ASC is a pig, and should not even be mentioned in the same breath as the NSX.....
 
The ASC is a pig, and should not even be mentioned in the same breath as the NSX.....

I have to say that after seeing it in person, it still looks horrible. :frown: I "wanted" to like it but there is just no way. It cannot be compared to the LF-A, R8 or even FT-HS in terms of appeal. It also appeared to be one of the least finished cars at the show. It was almost like they ran out of time and said "just do this".
 
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