New Ferrari 488 GTB Raises the Bar Again

I don't understand going turbo in their case, 15% more power at that point and retaining almost same fuel consumption for sacrificing the sound and drivability of NA engine, even reliability

Maybe it has to do with the planned spinoff of Ferrari from the Fiat group. Perhaps there are commercial implications regarding the ability to meet Euro 6 emission standards if Ferrari becomes a stand alone entity.

It is also becoming a catch 22 to stay competitive, higher HP, reduced CO2 footprint, better mileage, etc, etc.
 
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There are huge taxes imposed on cars >4.0L which is why Ferrari went with 3.9L displacement. I wouldn't say turbocharging is less reliable because of how stressed the 4.5L NA V8 is to make 600hp is probably more stressed than a 3.9L making 660hp. I'm not sure where areout got his figures from saying the 488 will be as fuel efficient as the 458?
 
the complaints of the car taking so long to be produced are probably warranted by how long Honda has promised or teased to actually bring it to market. it's understandable in my mind. Ford didn't even tell anyone they were making a new GT (it was a rumour), and Ferrari similarly just dropped the 488 on everyone. no Superbowl ads three years ago, no teaser videos, no talk for a decade. they just quietly did the business, and slammed everyone's jaws on the floor. all with final specs at their vehicle's release. i think that is more the point of everyone's disdain with their marketing strategy, or whatever Honda calls it these days...

Agreed. You have perfectly enunciated what has been bothering so many of us about the NSX launch. They failed to launch with a surprise attack which can generate a lot of excitement while others have pulled it off beautifully. But I think Honda found itself in a unique and difficult situation that other automakers didn't have to deal with. Namely, I believe that the original NSX was such a paradigm-shifting, ground-breaking car that shook the foundation of the supercar establishment and offered so many automotive "firsts" like no other car before it (except perhaps the Mercedes 300SL Gullwing or the 959) that the pressure was on to create a followup act that would not be a let down. I think part of the reason the previous NSX replacements were killed off was because they were not breaking any new ground or introducing any significant new technology. After 7 years of searching for something revolutionary, Honda realized that a hybrid power unit, tailored to a performance application, could offer this.

So why not just work on it and shut up till its done? Because Honda knew that waiting till 2015 to reveal this technology would have resulted in other automakers stealing their thunder and I think they wanted to be on record as having come up with this power train architecture before the hyper cars were released. Otherwise, Honda gets accused of just being a "me too" automaker and this was unacceptable for their flagship car.

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i get your point, which is that Honda will offer the hybrid Supercar technology at a cheaper price than the three manufacturers that brought it to market first. but it is absolutely not debatable that the three manufacturers that brought it to market first, did indeed bring it to market first.

So is it really obvious that the three manufacturers brought it to market first? Yes they brought this HYKERS technology to the market before Honda but only Porsche even attempted to divide the hybrid power between the four wheels. And even so, they did not go as far with the the active torque transfer (i.e 2 electric motors up front, each dedicated to a separate wheel). This is a big deal with incredible potential benefits that, IMO, Honda doesn't get enough credit for. The fact that they aspire to bring this added technology to the market at 1/5 the price is only icing on the cake.
 
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I'm not sure you can say the NSX will offer 'borderline hypercar performance'. By the sounds of it, the NSX will be priced similarly to the R8 and GTR Nismo rather than the more expensive 458/488, 650S, FGT (probably), Huracan. The NSX was targeting the performance of the 458 and while it may have impressive acceleration to 60, those 7 figure hypercars have some serious legs (300hp+) on any of the mentioned 6-figure supercars.

I agree that the NSX brings high performing hybrid technology to the masses, to perform as well (or quicker) than the benchmark 458/650S' which cost a lot more, but it's not going to be P1/LAF/918 performance.

I think it'll be able to complete with the hypercars up to about 110-120 mph, and then the other's peak hp difference will shine. The NSX has already been deemed hypercar in the past by a publisher anyways. Handling is yet to be seen, but let's see if the new NSX will enter the gauntlet of Ring times. It's a tall order to best the 918's new record as even McLaren has yet to officially release a time for the P1. The LaFerrari XX is rumored to have set the new record, but no official word yet.

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i get your point, which is that Honda will offer the hybrid Supercar technology at a cheaper price than the three manufacturers that brought it to market first. but it is absolutely not debatable that the three manufacturers that brought it to market first, did indeed bring it to market first. whether you consider them unobtainable or completely sold out makes absolutely no difference. and it's also not debatable that they're production vehicles. they may be low volume production vehicles, but they are still in fact production vehicles. these things are all completely non debatable.

to the average American, whom are much better off and have a much higher degree of disposable wealth than most other countries, an NSX, a Ferrari, a GTR, an Audi R8 or even a used base model Porsche Cayman are all in the same category, i.e., out of reach for most. maybe the potential buyer for the new NSX, or an R8 can't afford a McLaren 650S, but these cars will all be grouped together in comparisons of everything, including price range. the demographic of people that can afford any of these cars is already a small percentage of the population.

the complaints of the car taking so long to be produced are probably warranted by how long Honda has promised or teased to actually bring it to market. it's understandable in my mind. Ford didn't even tell anyone they were making a new GT (it was a rumour), and Ferrari similarly just dropped the 488 on everyone. no Superbowl ads three years ago, no teaser videos, no talk for a decade. they just quietly did the business, and slammed everyone's jaws on the floor. all with final specs at their vehicle's release. i think that is more the point of everyone's disdain with their marketing strategy, or whatever Honda calls it these days...

The closest to concept with the NSX is the 918 as the P1 and LaFerrari simply are not comparable. Keep in mind tho the 918 weighs 3700 lbs. If Honda can create a package that weighs the same or even less than that at essentially 1/5 or 1/6 of the 918's pricepoint, I'd say that's damn impressive.

The hypercars are accessible by than less than 1% of the world if you consider all things and really, each respective model are so limited, we are talking about a handful or cars made for the world literally. The NSX's price range is accessible by atleast 10%+ of the world I'd say. That's a substantial difference. I think it's going to be as rare as the current GTR, if not a bit smaller in volume. That's quite accessible still IMO. Many people in the world could afford a $150K car, but how many truly would want one versus a nice home, boat, etc?

I don't disagree with you on the patience-wringing rollercoaster ride of the NSX journey to launch, but let's not pretend that Honda is the only manufacturer that has had ups and downs. How many concepts have Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Cadillac/GM and even Ford have made of mid-engine concept cars and then said "nope, it was just for fun." I think they are in a special position where they can do so much and many people recognize the potential behind the company. Everyone has an opinion on what Honda should do, but you can't please everyone. Overall though, I think the production prototype NSX was a solid move/direction and if they can deliver on performance while still maintaining Honda's trademark reliability and execution, then it'll be a homerun.

So as usual Honda certainly needs to work on their marketing and timing if they want to be taken more seriously, but their recent ads/commercials have been better than the past. The FGT had a lot of buzz with the surprise reveal, but I definitely don't think it will ultimately be a better car than the new NSX (no matter how expensive or affordable they make it), but we shall see. I'm mildly disappointed at the engine choice and expected them to use a more efficient V8 or twin turbo V8 - atleast a unique and standalone engine that you can't find in a Ford Taurus, Mustang, or pickup truck.
 
Your reading comprehension surely must be in the bottom quintile. Read my post again, boy.

Enough with the petty and witless insults. Either come up with an actual counter or just move on.

In other news, the first gen NSX development started in 1985 but it's first public appearance in 1989 with sales in the US in 1991. The second gen NSX starts development in 2011 with a concept shown in 2012 with a production version in 2015 with sales also beginning in 2015. So in general terms we're talking about a one year difference in comparing v1 vs. v2 development (or rather marketing) that is getting a disgruntled few all riled up? Do I have that right?
 
the first gen NSX development started in 1985 but it's first public appearance in 1989 with sales in the US in 1991. The second gen NSX starts development in 2011 with a concept shown in 2012 with a production version in 2015 with sales also beginning in 2015. So in general terms we're talking about a one year difference in comparing v1 vs. v2 development (or rather marketing) that is getting a disgruntled few all riled up? Do I have that right?

yes, you do have that right. basically by the launch of a new model, work begins on the successor almost immediately there after...

The NSX has already been deemed hypercar in the past by a publisher anyways.

obviously a little over zealous in his or her deeming.

The hypercars are accessible by than less than 1% of the world if you consider all things and really, each respective model are so limited, we are talking about a handful or cars made for the world literally. The NSX's price range is accessible by atleast 10%+ of the world I'd say. That's a substantial difference.

you honestly think 10% of the world can afford a US $150,000 car? your overestimation of the world's wealth is massive mate. I would guess that not even 10% of this very wealthy country can afford a new car at any price.

The FGT had a lot of buzz with the surprise reveal, but I definitely don't think it will ultimately be a better car than the new NSX (no matter how expensive or affordable they make it), but we shall see. I'm mildly disappointed at the engine choice and expected them to use a more efficient V8 or twin turbo V8...

sadly to say, after all the build up, Ford completely stole the NSX's thunder on it's highly hoopla-ed big day. as for the choice of engine, obviously they already have this basic powerplant in their fleet, which is why they used it. it's a great engine, better than their bigger V8's in power and fuel economy, and heaps cheaper than developing an entirely new one. however, Ford says that this engine is more comparable to the Daytona Prototype LMP2 racer, and a lot less so to their street vehicles. you may forget that the previous supercharged 5.4l V8 also came from pre-existing models, Mustangs and trucks, minus the Taurus. funny you should deride their choice of a twin turbocharged V6 however, just saying...

p.s. I can't wait to see the NSX, 650S, 488 and GT go head-to-head as soon as possible.
 
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Enough with the petty and witless insults. Either come up with an actual counter or just move on.

In other news, the first gen NSX development started in 1985 but it's first public appearance in 1989 with sales in the US in 1991. The second gen NSX starts development in 2011 with a concept shown in 2012 with a production version in 2015 with sales also beginning in 2015. So in general terms we're talking about a one year difference in comparing v1 vs. v2 development (or rather marketing) that is getting a disgruntled few all riled up? Do I have that right?


i know you were not responding to me, but I want to ensure I made my point clearly.

I'm no NSX historian, but I believe the original NSX was displayed for the first time in 1989 and went on sale in 1990. (You are correct in saying it went on sale in the US in 1991; staged rollouts across countries were very common back then.) This NSX was being driven around in a major motion picture more than 3 years before it will start shipping, and was advertised at the highest-rated event of the year almost 2 years before it will start shipping. I do not see that as a development failure; I see it as a marketing failure. This is an unbelievable car that is not perceived as "fresh" or "new" by the general public.
 
I think it'll be able to complete with the hypercars up to about 110-120 mph, and then the other's peak hp difference will shine. The NSX has already been deemed hypercar in the past by a publisher anyways. Handling is yet to be seen, but let's see if the new NSX will enter the gauntlet of Ring times. It's a tall order to best the 918's new record as even McLaren has yet to officially release a time for the P1. The LaFerrari XX is rumored to have set the new record, but no official word yet.

The closest to concept with the NSX is the 918 as the P1 and LaFerrari simply are not comparable. Keep in mind tho the 918 weighs 3700 lbs. If Honda can create a package that weighs the same or even less than that at essentially 1/5 or 1/6 of the 918's pricepoint, I'd say that's damn impressive.
I think your ambitions are way too high for the NSX. IIRC, Honda stated the 458 was their performance target for the NSX while having greater than GTR/Tesla acceleration to 60mph. With a mid engine layout and it's front and rear electric motors, I can see some inherent advantages that could allow the NSX to meet that specific acceleration target, however the combined electric/gas output of the NSX is "more than 550hp", which is ~50hp less than the non hybrid: FGT's output of "more than 600hp", and ~100hp less than McLaren's 650hp 650S and Ferrari's new 488.

I'm obviously a fan of the NSX and its heritage, but if the NSX could equal a 562hp Ferrari 458 on a track, I would consider that to be a huge feat and win for Honda. The systems integration of electronic diffs, suspension, torque vectoring, etc... in 458's and 12Cs are complex enough and even McLaren is behind Ferrari in terms of this. Honda's system is way more complex and it is a huge task to make everything work together as flawlessly as Porsche did with the 918 and McLaren with the P1 -and they both are constantly updating the programming as they perfect it. However, to think that it will deliver 918/P1/LAF performance is more than a stretch.

you honestly think 10% of the world can afford a US $150,000 car? your overestimation of the world's wealth is massive mate. I would guess that not even 10% of this very wealthy country can afford a new car at any price.
I agree and would guess that ~1% can afford a $150K car while the 918/P1/LAF Hypercars are attainable by 1% of that 1%.
 
I agree and would guess that ~1% can afford a $150K car while the 918/P1/LAF Hypercars are attainable by 1% of that 1%.

In the US, the top 10% income earners could "afford" a $150k car based on math alone, even though it isn't the best fiscal decision for them to make. Gets a bit fuzzy when you add in factors like whether they have kids and how old, how much housing costs in their area, etc, etc.

top-income-earners-2015.png
 
I'd marry the new NSX, but I'd cheat on her with the 488. It's not really the kind of car you can bring home to meet the family.
 
In the US, the top 10% income earners could "afford" a $150k car based on math alone, even though it isn't the best fiscal decision for them to make. Gets a bit fuzzy when you add in factors like whether they have kids and how old, how much housing costs in their area, etc, etc.

top-income-earners-2015.png

This data does not appear to show median income. Affording a minimum $150K super car on household income (minimum) of $113k is pretty ridiculous. My wife and I bring home well above $113k annually and there is no way in hell we could buy a new NSX unless we rented a bedroom from a friend.

I would wager far less than 10% of the US population could "realistically afford" a $150k supercar given the number of regular expenses most Americans incur (as you mentioned).
 
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This NSX was being driven around in a major motion picture more than 3 years before it will start shipping, and was advertised at the highest-rated event of the year almost 2 years before it will start shipping. I do not see that as a development failure; I see it as a marketing failure. This is an unbelievable car that is not perceived as "fresh" or "new" by the general public.

It's only a marketing failure if their goal was to surprise everyone and have maximum impact at the unveiling. Bottom line is that Acura and Honda's performance image has been in terrible shape for many years, and the cancellation of the ASCC project didn't help. The brand desperately needed a boost and fans needed something, anything to give hope that things were going to get better at Honda/Acura. Revealing the NSX design early did that.

That strategy certainly had its down sides like the cynicism about the 'long development cycle' and the reduced splash for the production unveil. But all in all it gave a signal that maybe Honda is heading in the right direction again and that maybe they'll make cars for Honda enthusiasts again before we all die of old age.
 
2015 F80 M3 = roughly $65k. x2 = $130k. 1998 NSX-T LoveFab = roughly $50k. Leaving your truck out of the equation, your household has around $180k in vehicles according to your signature. Why is it unreasonable to assume that another household couldn't do a $150k new NSX and a $30k daily driver?
 
Gt4

I hope the new NSX will be fun to drive and faster on the track than GTR, 911, and 458, or Honda will be in a tough spot regarding to the new NSX. There are so many new fun cars coming out in the next few years, I am seriously considering a Cayman GT4, mid engine which only comes in manual for 85k. It looks great and I bet it will be fun to toss around.

am I going off topic a little? Or will the GT4 even affect the sales of new NSX....
porsche-cayman-gt4.jpg
 
obviously a little over zealous in his or her deeming.

sadly to say, after all the build up, Ford completely stole the NSX's thunder on it's highly hoopla-ed big day. as for the choice of engine, obviously they already have this basic powerplant in their fleet, which is why they used it. it's a great engine, better than their bigger V8's in power and fuel economy, and heaps cheaper than developing an entirely new one. however, Ford says that this engine is more comparable to the Daytona Prototype LMP2 racer, and a lot less so to their street vehicles. you may forget that the previous supercharged 5.4l V8 also came from pre-existing models, Mustangs and trucks, minus the Taurus. funny you should deride their choice of a twin turbocharged V6 however, just saying...

p.s. I can't wait to see the NSX, 650S, 488 and GT go head-to-head as soon as possible.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1308_hypercar_blueprint/

I guess someone at MT is super-zealous and this was when MT was under the impression that the engine was going to NA...

I did not forget the previous FGT is a modular V8, that's why I said I hoped they used a more efficient V8, one specifically built for the FGT. The LMP2's headline is that it's the engine that you can find in your Taurus! The engineer said it himself in the video.

I can't wait for the comparisons. That's when we shall see if Honda truly delivers or just rushed and stumbled.

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I think your ambitions are way too high for the NSX. IIRC, Honda stated the 458 was their performance target for the NSX while having greater than GTR/Tesla acceleration to 60mph. With a mid engine layout and it's front and rear electric motors, I can see some inherent advantages that could allow the NSX to meet that specific acceleration target, however the combined electric/gas output of the NSX is "more than 550hp", which is ~50hp less than the non hybrid: FGT's output of "more than 600hp", and ~100hp less than McLaren's 650hp 650S and Ferrari's new 488.

I'm obviously a fan of the NSX and its heritage, but if the NSX could equal a 562hp Ferrari 458 on a track, I would consider that to be a huge feat and win for Honda. The systems integration of electronic diffs, suspension, torque vectoring, etc... in 458's and 12Cs are complex enough and even McLaren is behind Ferrari in terms of this. Honda's system is way more complex and it is a huge task to make everything work together as flawlessly as Porsche did with the 918 and McLaren with the P1 -and they both are constantly updating the programming as they perfect it. However, to think that it will deliver 918/P1/LAF performance is more than a stretch.

I agree and would guess that ~1% can afford a $150K car while the 918/P1/LAF Hypercars are attainable by 1% of that 1%.

The final numbers aren't released yet for the NSX and it's because Honda is keen on the advent of the 488. Let's just wait and see what it finally does.

The 1% of 1% is what I was alluding to. So you'd be agreeing with me more than FA as he believes those extremely low production cars can be slotted as a regular production car...

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In the US, the top 10% income earners could "afford" a $150k car based on math alone, even though it isn't the best fiscal decision for them to make. Gets a bit fuzzy when you add in factors like whether they have kids and how old, how much housing costs in their area, etc, etc.

top-income-earners-2015.png

Thanks for that. Thanks to inflation and wealth distribution, $150K is truly not as high as it once was in the 90s for instance.
 
I hope the new NSX will be fun to drive and faster on the track than GTR, 911, and 458, or Honda will be in a tough spot regarding to the new NSX. There are so many new fun cars coming out in the next few years, I am seriously considering a Cayman GT4, mid engine which only comes in manual for 85k. It looks great and I bet it will be fun to toss around.

am I going off topic a little? Or will the GT4 even affect the sales of new NSX....

IMHO Very different market segments between the GT4 and the NSX2.0.

The GT4 was put together with the mission of been the best track oriented car for it's class and price point (mid engine, naturally aspirated, MSRP < 100K car), it will be the base/foundation for a street based race car for various racing series. (In the past privateers campaigned the previous generation Cayman's without any official factory support)

The GT4 follows the KISS principle as best as it is possible these days.

In Europe you can order the car with the Club Sports Package, half cage and harness from the factory. Kind of shows the intended nature/goal for the car.

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^Quite possibly. The Cayman is an excellent car and the GT3-ized Cayman GT4 is the 'affordable' mid-engine track-focused car that the market needed.

+1,

wait lists at almost every Porsche dealer nationwide...
 
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I'm no NSX historian, but I believe the original NSX was displayed for the first time in 1989 and went on sale in 1990. (You are correct in saying it went on sale in the US in 1991; staged rollouts across countries were very common back then.) This NSX was being driven around in a major motion picture more than 3 years before it will start shipping, and was advertised at the highest-rated event of the year almost 2 years before it will start shipping. I do not see that as a development failure; I see it as a marketing failure. This is an unbelievable car that is not perceived as "fresh" or "new" by the general public.

No worries, thanks for the reply. I think we can both agree on the history for each version. Although I think it a stretch in saying that the NSX was driven around in a motion picture, I don't think it's worth mentioning much as argument. However, one point that I do significantly disagree with is the car is not perceived as "fresh" or "new" by the general public. Do you have any data to back this up with? Has there been research performed, that evidences this theory? B/c that's a fairly grand statement on behalf of the general public. Or do you mean "fresh" or "new" among auto enthusiasts. Be careful if so, b/c we (auto enthusiasts) tend to live in an echo chamber that confirms already present biases.
 
IMHO Very different market segments between the GT4 and the NSX2.0.

The GT4 was put together with the mission of been the best track oriented car for it's class and price point (mid engine, naturally aspirated, MSRP < 100K car), it will be the base/foundation for a street based race car for various racing series. (In the past privateers campaigned the previous generation Cayman's without any official factory support)

The GT4 follows the KISS principle as best as it is possible these days.

That is why I think the GT4 is exactly what most NSX owners are looking for, especially the price point. A car that is fun from 30-120 and daily drive able, mid engine, can be tracked right out of the box, stick shift, light weight, NA. The only thing about that car is that its not that special unlike the NSX. Just another great Porsche.
 
That is why I think the GT4 is exactly what most NSX owners are looking for, especially the price point. A car that is fun from 30-120 and daily drive able, mid engine, can be tracked right out of the box, stick shift, light weight, NA. The only thing about that car is that its not that special unlike the NSX. Just another great Porsche.

trust me, when you're driving that "un-special" little Porsche and grinning ear-to-ear like a small child, you honestly won't give a damn...

The LMP2's headline is that it's the engine that you can find in your Taurus! The engineer said it himself in the video.

that's marketing mate, that's how you excite the average Joe Blow about the engine in a Ford Taurus'. we all know those two engines will have virtually nothing (literally) in common besides the number of cylinders and turbo chargers.

So you'd be agreeing with me more than FA as he believes those extremely low production cars can be slotted as a regular production car...

mate, it's all relative. if you compare NSX numbers to that of Civic numbers from 2005, or even 1995, by your own definition you'd be saying that the NSX was not a production car...
 
That is why I think the GT4 is exactly what most NSX owners are looking for, especially the price point. A car that is fun from 30-120 and daily drive able, mid engine, can be tracked right out of the box, stick shift, light weight, NA. The only thing about that car is that its not that special unlike the NSX. Just another great Porsche.

That last criteria is key and I agree wholeheartedly. It doesn't look very special either. If it looked more exotic, but still sold well, it would be more desirable for me. Honda should take note and base their S2000 successor on this philiosophy. A solid mid-engine base for the enthusiast track junkie.
 
That is why I think the GT4 is exactly what most NSX owners are looking for, especially the price point. A car that is fun from 30-120 and daily drive able, mid engine, can be tracked right out of the box, stick shift, light weight, NA. The only thing about that car is that its not that special unlike the NSX. Just another great Porsche.

Thanks for your clarification, I understand your point.

From the many 1st generation NSX owners that I know there are only a very few of them who are interested in the NSX2.0 (then again most of those folks that I know used to track their NSX's so we are like minded and understand what the implications are for all the technology that is in the NSX2.0).

So someone who is "seriously" considering buying a NSX2.0 that is: AWD, V6 Turbo, hybrid, DCT, etc, probably is not in the market for a track capable car that follows the KISS principle like the GT4.

The GT4 from the factory will have a coil-over suspension, adjustable sway bars front and rear, adjustable control arms, traction control that can be disabled, a stiffened chassis (worthy of motorsports level of abuse), lightweight flywheel, track worthy brakes, mounting points for a full roll-cage from the factory, bucket seats, etc.

Like stuntman said the GT4 will be the GT3's of Cayman's.

I'm very glad that it appeals to current NSX owners who track their cars who are not interested in the NSX2.0. :cool:

BTW: If you are seriously interested in the GT4 call around the country.. It will be impossible to get in CA if you have not had your name down since last year.
 
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