Need some advice

[Hrant]

Hrant, 60%-80% of MY CAPABILITY not the car's. When I'm at 100% I'm sure I'm peaking the car at a solid 28-33%. Don't underestimate me.

I trust you meant don't underestimate your assessment of "your capabilities" which is great if you are recognizing it as you state it. But if that is only 28-33% of your car's capabilities at your peak (how did you the math just curious LOL!), then I am tripling down on my recommendation! How do you like my math 33% x 3 = 99% :tongue:

And CL65 Captain made a very good observation. We all reach a plateau at some point either because we have reached our risk tolerance or the equipment (personal or mechanical) has reached its limits. If its the former, it is not going to get better unless one's personal risk variables (family, finance, fear, etc.) are reduced ........ if it is the latter, you can pour more "wisely" and "selectively" funds on the mechanical improvements but as for the personal equipment limits, I recommend starting first with adult diapers :biggrin:

 

[FXMDBilly]

Risk tolerance is a function of skill and comfort level. Both can be improved by good instruction.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Anyone know how the SOS baffle and the STMPO baffle differ if at all?

 

[FXMDBilly]

Anyone know how the SOS baffle and the STMPO baffle differ if at all?

The biggest difference is the drain-back design and how the baffle connects to the stepped 'ledge' on the left (drivers) side of the sump.

The STMPO baffle is welded all along this 'step' which better prevents oil from sloshing up on the step and away from the oil pickup. Also the STMPO drainback holes are more like slots than large dimpled holes. Because its smaller, the slots do a better job at slowing down how fast the oil fills that 'stepped' cavity and thus keeps the oil where it needs to be - in the sump where the oil pickup is. Having too big of drain-back holes as well as without welding the baffle to the 'step' itself will result in the oil filling the cavity faster and less efficient at keeping the oil in the sump than the STMPO baffle.

While the small drain back slots are good at preventing the oil from filling the stepped cavity and keeping the oil in the sump, it DOES NOT affect the drain-back efficiency of the baffle. Oil drains back into the sump to feed the pickup far faster than it lets oil out of the sump during cornering.

The main problem with the NSX's pan is this 'step' and open sump with no baffling in it. When cornering hard around right hand corners, oil sloshes up and fills this higher void which can eventually cause the oil pickup to starve and suck air -which leads to low oil pressure and a blown motor. Preventing the oil from sloshing up and filling this void is the key purpose of the baffle.

Through FXMD's extensive track testing: under long duration corners (5 second+) under full throttle, generating a sustained 1.0G+ can cause this oil starvation. Imagine holding the oil pan 90* sideways and all the oil sloshing away from the pickup. (You can even do this with your oil pan off and filled with water or oil as a demonstration).

We will have oil pressure data and the effectiveness of the STMPO baffle in the worst possible scenarios (street, R-compound, slicks, NA/Turbo, Professional driver, etc...) up in the near future. Stay tuned for future FXMD/STMPO collaborations and testing.

Billy

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

How do pivot clamps stabilize the rear??

The pivot clamps affect the front suspension pivot member which is a device designed to absorb shock to the suspension at a minimal effect of causing dynamic toe changes under load. The pivot clamp is design to prevent the pivot member from rotating under load to reduce the dynamic toe change it creates. This will improve the car's stability under braking and particularly initial turn in. It's a nice add on piece as it does not require you to realign the car as with the rear toe link and rear beam bushings. It however has less of an effect as the rear non-compliance bushings.

You can find more information here:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/suspension_performance_products/NSX/Cedar_Ridge/pivot_clamps/

I agree with others that formal and informal instruction will likely yield greater results than throwing parts at the car. I do feel that when you start to consider parts to improve the car's performance, the rear toe link and rear beam bushings makes a dramatic improvement in the handling the in the car. They really do make the NSX shine and address the one slight of the rear end feeling ambiguous during high speed sweeper type turns. Lots more information here:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produ.../NSX/ScienceofSpeed/non-compliance/toe-links/
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produ.../NSX/ScienceofSpeed/non-compliance/rear_beam/

regards,
-- Chris

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

The biggest difference is the drain-back design and how the baffle connects to the stepped 'ledge' on the left (drivers) side of the sump.

The STMPO baffle is welded all along this 'step' which better prevents oil from sloshing up on the step and away from the oil pickup. Also the STMPO drainback holes are more like slots than large dimpled holes. Because its smaller, the slots do a better job at slowing down how fast the oil fills that 'stepped' cavity and thus keeps the oil where it needs to be - in the sump where the oil pickup is. Having too big of drain-back holes as well as without welding the baffle to the 'step' itself will result in the oil filling the cavity faster and less efficient at keeping the oil in the sump than the STMPO baffle.

While the small drain back slots are good at preventing the oil from filling the stepped cavity and keeping the oil in the sump, it DOES NOT affect the drain-back efficiency of the baffle. Oil drains back into the sump to feed the pickup far faster than it lets oil out of the sump during cornering.

The main problem with the NSX's pan is this 'step' and open sump with no baffling in it. When cornering hard around right hand corners, oil sloshes up and fills this higher void which can eventually cause the oil pickup to starve and suck air -which leads to low oil pressure and a blown motor. Preventing the oil from sloshing up and filling this void is the key purpose of the baffle.

Through FXMD's extensive track testing: under long duration corners (5 second+) under full throttle, generating a sustained 1.0G+ can cause this oil starvation. Imagine holding the oil pan 90* sideways and all the oil sloshing away from the pickup. (You can even do this with your oil pan off and filled with water or oil as a demonstration).

We will have oil pressure data and the effectiveness of the STMPO baffle in the worst possible scenarios (street, R-compound, slicks, NA/Turbo, Professional driver, etc...) up in the near future. Stay tuned for future FXMD/STMPO collaborations and testing.

Billy

Billy --

I have to disagree with you about your assessment on the design of the baffle. The laser cut and die pressed holes we use on our baffle is more effective than a simple slotted hole at restricting oil flow in one direction (away from the pick up). They also give the baffle added rigidity. This is a more costly design than simple slotted holes, but one that we feel is warranted being than pan does not have an elaborate trap door design. Regarding the welding running the full length - the baffle sits nearly flush with the wall of the pan. I don't think it is necessary, but there is no reason why it could not be welded along the full length.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[Coz]

Well said Hrant...

Since you asked again, I will give you my $0.02 again.

 

[Coz]

I've always liked your style of driving Captain...
Love how smooth you are.

Want to make a bet? A Spec Miata with a good driver will probably lap faster than you in that SC NSX.

 

[Coz]

That sure is a true statement, and they hurt.

And if you haven't started to get bruises on the left and right side of your left/right knees, then you are not going fast enough LOL!

 

[Coz]

So very true...
and with practice...

Risk tolerance is a function of skill and comfort level. Both can be improved by good instruction.

 

[TXvsLV]

products/mods on cars should be seperated from the driver discusion.

I am a professional tennis coach.
lessons and an individuals skill vs. rackets and string
DE, driving ability, and skill vs. products/mods

no contest. instructor wins everyday and 2wice on Sunday. Literally.
Being coached by the best will give the greatest improvement.
Equipment helps the aid and advancement of the student/driver

with the wrong equipment it can and will harm/hender the improvement and learning of the student/driver!!!!

cars need tuning ability like athletes due with their equipment for proper development

Driver
1)the best coaching available
2)practice

Car
1) Suspension (easily tune over/understeer)
2) non complience 3 some w/ alignment cornerbalancing
3) seat (buddy club makes a cheapy $300)


learning to drive different cars "well" will help you drive your car better
but their is no substitute for learning in your own car and with your own equipment!!!!
Ideally u would train w/ great coaching and adjustable equipment

Billy your the MAN

anymore questions for the professional coaches?
if u wanna hear anymore please feel free to call.

thanks
Scott

 

[FXMDBilly]

Billy --

I have to disagree with you about your assessment on the design of the baffle. The laser cut and die pressed holes we use on our baffle is more effective than a simple slotted hole at restricting oil flow in one direction (away from the pick up).

Hey Chris, well at least we agree to disagree

Through our fluid flow analysis of many different pan designs (of which we have also track tested), I would have to respectfully disagree with you and stand by my previous statement: of the benefits of the welded baffle to the 'step' as well as the smaller slots. IMO -the volume of the larger holes allows oil to flow through it and away from the oil pickup faster than the thin slots.

They also give the baffle added rigidity. This is a more costly design than simple slotted holes, but one that we feel is warranted being than pan does not have an elaborate trap door design.

While I agree that the dimpled holes increase rigidity, I don't feel its necessary on a baffle since the oil pan isn't a stressed structural member. The entire baffle acts like a brace in the middle of the pan anyway - plus welding the baffle to the 'step' further increases rigidity compared to not welding it. While a properly designed trap door would be ideal, our testing hasn't shown oil starvation around left hand corners. This means that for the NSX, the most important goal of the baffle is to prevent the oil from sloshing to the left around long right-hand corners, which a good baffle does effectively.

Regarding the welding running the full length - the baffle sits nearly flush with the wall of the pan. I don't think it is necessary, but there is no reason why it could not be welded along the full length.

regards,
-- Chris

From the photo of your installed baffle below, there appears to be quite a large gap between the baffle and the 'step' in the pan. Thus the gap looks difficult to weld in a few different places. The gap also allows oil to flow away from the oil pickup VERY quickly, which is a bad thing. Unfortunately we (FXMD) have lost a $20,000 race motor due to oil starvation using your baffle.

We will be testing and datalogging the performance of the STMPO baffle in the near future. The STMPO baffle has tighter tolerances and sits flush with the 'step' in the pan. I also recommend welding it all the way across the 'step' to prevent oil from flowing between the step and the baffle and thus keeping oil in the sump better.

Billy

 

[FXMDBilly]

Being coached by the best will give the greatest improvement.
Equipment helps the aid and advancement of the student/driver

with the wrong equipment it can and will harm/hender the improvement and learning of the student/driver!!!!

learning to drive different cars "well" will help you drive your car better
but their is no substitute for learning in your own car and with your own equipment!!!!
Ideally u would train w/ great coaching and adjustable equipment

Billy your the MAN

anymore questions for the professional coaches?
if u wanna hear anymore please feel free to call.

thanks
Scott

Hey Scott, thank you :redface:

I agree with everything you said. On that note, would you agree that the best instructors (tennis or driving) don't necessarily HAVE TO be the fastest or best tennis player/driver? As in there are great instructors out there who aren't necessarily "the best" themselves, but who are able to coach and work with people and make them far better than some athletes who are 'the best' but can't coach to save their lives?

Heck, Formula 1 drivers even have 'coaches', dosn't mean the coach is a better driver. Point being, the goal is to find the best driving instructor available, and it takes looking and researching. Sometimes they have great racing driving resumes/accomplishments, sometimes they don't.

Billy

 

[Liquid]

Unfortunately we (FXMD) have lost a $20,000 race motor due to oil starvation using your baffle.

If you are soley relying on an oil pan baffle to prevent oil starvation in your race prepped NSX, as this comment seems to suggest, that would be very

As NSX owners we greatly appreciate the enthusiasm vendors like SOS and FXMD have for the NSX and the work you guys both put into designing, manufacturing, and distributing aftermarket parts for a car that has been out of production for 5 years now.

 

[FXMDBilly]

If you are soley relying on an oil pan baffle to prevent oil starvation in your race prepped NSX, as this comment seems to suggest, that would be very

Of course, which is why we weren't. Increasing the volume of the pan/sump itself as well as an accusump AID the performance of the baffle, and we hand both in said situation.

The larger volume sump has more oil than stock and thus more oil will be in the sump at the pickup for the same amount of oil that sloshes away and up into the cavity of that 'step'. Having a larger sump prolonged the time it takes to starve for oil.

Once the pickup starves for oil and drops engine oil pressure, the accusump with it's X amount (usually 3quarts) of oil discharges with it's 60-80ish PSI and gives the motor AN EXTRA FEW SECONDS of oil and pressure before running out and leading to the inevitable.

Thus the increase in volume delayed the onset of oil starvation, and the accusump allowed for a few more precious seconds of safety before our motor starved of oil and blew up. Despite a larger volume of oil, it appears the SOS baffle's inefficient design allowed oil to pass by the baffle and away from the pickup too quickly. With the stock pan's size, this would have occurred much earlier. Without an accusump, once the baffle let too much oil by, the motor would have been lost far sooner.

On data we saw the oil pressure start to drop (as it starved from oil -showing how long the baffle/larger sump lasted) as well as how long the accusump assisted the motor until the oil pressure dropped to dangerous levels and the resulting lost motor.

In Conclusion:

I am a proponent of baffles, accusumps, and increased pan volumes. All of which are great safety measures/insurance steps to protect your investment. I will say that the SOS baffle is far better than no baffle at all and it will definitely prolong the delay of oil starvation and will improve the safety of your motor. It might be enough to save your motor (but that depends on your driving ability, tires, aero, track, etc...) but it wasn't enough for the performance level of our racecar even with a larger sump and accusump. At this level, a dry sump is pretty much required.

From our analysis and pan efficiency testing outside of the car, I believe the STMPO baffle is more effective at keeping oil at the sump and will do a quantifiably better job at saving your motor. Thus IMO there is no reason not to go with the STMPO baffle. We will test and verify its performance (for good or for bad) in the coming months so stay tuned!


Billy

 

[TURBO2GO]

Are there any pics of the STMPO baffle? I didn't even know Ross made one til you mentioned it on this thread.

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

Here is a pic of the baffle itself... we are waiting on a core exchange return pan so we can show the welded (installed) final product.

The top edge the pan is the "sealing point" found in this discussion. The extra body of metal that follows the shelf line allows a complete seal to be formed.


Regards

 

[TXvsLV]

Hey Scott, thank you :redface:

I agree with everything you said. On that note, would you agree that the best instructors (tennis or driving) don't necessarily HAVE TO be the fastest or best tennis player/driver? As in there are great instructors out there who aren't necessarily "the best" themselves, but who are able to coach and work with people and make them far better than some athletes who are 'the best' but can't coach to save their lives?

Heck, Formula 1 drivers even have 'coaches', dosn't mean the coach is a better driver. Point being, the goal is to find the best driving instructor available, and it takes looking and researching. Sometimes they have great racing driving resumes/accomplishments, sometimes they don't.

Billy

you are right again sir!!!!
you can find great instruction w/o the coach actually being the TOP competitor in their field. However, the VERY BEST caoches have made it to the top or4 near it!!!

The weirdest fact is that the Elite players in most fields can not take a beginner to the top b/c they dont know enough about the basics of their field.
Think about this a sec....
when did Labron James learn to shoot/dribble?
when did Michael Schumacher learn to drive?
when did Tiger Woods learn to golf?
when did Roger Federer learn to hit a tennis ball?

most of the elite find the beginning aspects of their sports a distant memory
can they coach another up and coming elite athlete....ABSOLUTLY, but after that individual has a solid basic understanding and skill taught by a coach like prior mentioned.

FYI:
I have a 3 quart accusump, sos baffled oil pan(oops), sos oil cooler, and sos oil catch can w/ my Cody installed LOVEFAB!!!!
driving ambition racing radiator w/ custom shroud
non comp clamps, toe links, and rear beam
buddy club race susp
nsx-r bars, dali 1" sways w/ alum bushings
full Stoptechs w/ Carbo tech race pads

ooo and I am training/driving to become an instructor myself!!!!

no proplems yet.....street tires though. NT555
thanks again Billy for the tire choice help purchased the NT01

 

[John@STMPO]

Here are some additional pictures that might assist in showing the tighter seal that the STMPO baffle offers.

 

[Liquid]

Continuing the discussion... educate me with your thoughts on the following. I am considering pivot clamps, toe links, and non-compliance rear beam. That will be about $1000. It got me thinking, for another $1000-1500, I could go with the KW V3 or another coilover (a separate discussion for sure). If you were going to do one or the other for this season (I'll most likely do both eventually), which would you do and why?

 

[TURBO2GO]

Continuing the discussion... educate me with your thoughts on the following. I am considering pivot clamps, toe links, and non-compliance rear beam. That will be about $1000. It got me thinking, for another $1000-1500, I could go with the KW V3 or another coilover (a separate discussion for sure). If you were going to do one or the other for this season (I'll most likely do both eventually), which would you do and why?

Didn't we just talk about this? did you read the whole thread? It depends on opinion. Billy says do the coilovers and Hrant, Doc, and a few others say do the non-compliance crap. hehe Either way do something so that I can drive your car and see how it is. I'll need a before and after so make sure you have plenty of gas.

 

[Liquid]

Yeah you're right. I'm not too bright these days.

 

[FXMDBilly]

One thing to add:

It isn't unheard of for a quality 3-way racing damper to be a second or two faster than a lower-tier double or single adjustable damper. It also wouldn't be surprising for a quality 2-way (double adjustable) damper like KW to be a second or two faster than an off-the-shelf cheapie asian coilover, let alone a few seconds or more faster than stock. You won't see these kinds of gains from stock suspension with non compliance bushings.

A quality double-adjustable damper is a HUGE tuning tool that affects the response, transitions, balance, compliance, grip, and more of the car. Non compliance bushings reduce bushing deflection. Due to the travel of the stock suspension and its soft spring rates, it's possible that the reduction of roll from a coilover would reduce the amount of bumpsteer and toe change more than eliminating the deflection from the bushing alone.

I believe its a clear winner between replacing those bushings and the KWs in terms of improving the car's performance, predictability, tuneability, comfort, etc..

I will state and caution that some no-name coilovers with no motorsports or racing history (often from Asia), can actually make the car handle and perform much worse than stock. INVEST in your car and don't cheap out on suspension or tires.


Billy

 

[GUNDAN323]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but I've been doing a lot of reading on Prime about the accusump and haven't been able to find an answer if an oil cooler is "important" to add.

I have been thinking about adding an 3qt accusump to my street/hpde car as a precaution and plan to get a baffle also.

Many people primarily recommend adding an accusump, but rarely any mention of an external oil cooler. Should I also get an oil cooler also? I plan to only do hpde sessions as this is a street car.

Your feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Nefarious]

My opinion is that anytime you add additional capacity and cooling it is a good thing. Some others might chime in as well.