Need some advice
- Thread starter TURBO2GO
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I will defer to your expertise and I gave my situation just as a little background but I should have clarified that my '96 is stock as far as the motor/tranny are concerned. I have always "suggested" to Dave that he modify his skills before his car but I know how adamant he is to "ignore" me. :wink:
I was fortunate to be "raised" in HPDE by Peter Mills and DocJohn with LarryB setting up my car as I progressed. I know I took it "slower" (meaning seeking more experience first) than most (and certainly more so than Dave) but I waited until I had experienced NSX instructors who observed me and counseled me as to when they thought I could "take the next step".
There you answered it :tongue: Buy nothing and continue focusing on developing your driving skill.
There you answered it again.
Your skill set can be deceptive with 12 track days in a modified car. Just wait until someone in a stock NSX passes you as if you are walking. Will be a huge lesson learned.
Ask me (or Bob, Peter, DocJohn) how I know - I once ate the biggest humble pie in my modified NSX.
nothing can replace seat time and instructions from the Pro.
now, where's the money going first, you should have an idea.
Frankly with everything you listed, I think the pivot clamp is probably the most noticeable as it's most inexpensive and you could install it yourself in 30 mins. Depending on the track you going to, my local track is bumpy and rough, especially at the braking zones. the Pivot clamp help stablizing the rear end, thus you can carry more speed into the corner.
Against big hp supercar, there's probably the only advantage you will have with your nsx, even with the SC. I have sitting on my non compliance beams and bushings for 3 yrs now. Still didn't get to have a chance to install it. (the logistics of installation/realignment/re setting suspension settings) So can't command how useful they will get.
now, where's the money going first, you should have an idea.
Frankly with everything you listed, I think the pivot clamp is probably the most noticeable as it's most inexpensive and you could install it yourself in 30 mins. Depending on the track you going to, my local track is bumpy and rough, especially at the braking zones. the Pivot clamp help stablizing the rear end, thus you can carry more speed into the corner.
Against big hp supercar, there's probably the only advantage you will have with your nsx, even with the SC. I have sitting on my non compliance beams and bushings for 3 yrs now. Still didn't get to have a chance to install it. (the logistics of installation/realignment/re setting suspension settings) So can't command how useful they will get.
How do pivot clamps stabilize the rear??
I'm going to look into skip barber or similar to do this year. I think for now maybe I'll do the brake ducts and that's it unless you guys think the rear beam bushings need to be done now. I hope it does not come across to anyone that I'm not listening, you guys can see there are differing opinions here. I don't want anyone saying "well he is not listening to me", I want to have more understanding and discussion. Trust me guys I'm not the only one at this stage right now so your input is helpful. I think sometimes people get upset that their recommendation was not the one followed 100% and I don't want that because I value all the input here. Doc and Hrant you guys say do the bushings now, billy you say right after the suspension, and nsxdreamer you are saying do the front clamps, right? I'll take everyones advice on the race school. Give me at least one car mod I need to get my fix for the year. If the bushings can wait a bit maybe I'll do brake ducts and a baffled oil pan. I'm not sure I'm fast enough with street tires to need an accusump yet. To be honest I looked into it and two members that sold theirs on the forum said it's complex and a pain, and they felt, overkill for an amateur tracker like me.
I'm going to look into skip barber or similar to do this year. I think for now maybe I'll do the brake ducts and that's it unless you guys think the rear beam bushings need to be done now. I hope it does not come across to anyone that I'm not listening, you guys can see there are differing opinions here. I don't want anyone saying "well he is not listening to me", I want to have more understanding and discussion. Trust me guys I'm not the only one at this stage right now so your input is helpful. I think sometimes people get upset that their recommendation was not the one followed 100% and I don't want that because I value all the input here. Doc and Hrant you guys say do the bushings now, billy you say right after the suspension, and nsxdreamer you are saying do the front clamps, right? I'll take everyones advice on the race school. Give me at least one car mod I need to get my fix for the year. If the bushings can wait a bit maybe I'll do brake ducts and a baffled oil pan. I'm not sure I'm fast enough with street tires to need an accusump yet. To be honest I looked into it and two members that sold theirs on the forum said it's complex and a pain, and they felt, overkill for an amateur tracker like me.
Well I like to bust your chops for "not listening" just for the sake of getting your attention. Everyone's growth in the sport is different depending upon their intentions, finances and individual goals. I have always believed that until you can outdrive your car's current setup then modify your driving skills first before increasing the limits of the car. That is why I was on the "slow to mod" side of the bell curve over these years. However, that was my personal preference insofar as my goal was to learn how drive safely at incremental increases of speed with proper track etiquette becoming more of a "reflex" rather than a "deep thought process" as I went around the track.
But since "your mileage may vary" you need to take everyone's input and determine your priorities based upon your goals. And then when you become and Open Tracker you can use your new camera mounts to get video of me passing your CTSC with my '96 NA with over 125,000 miles on the ticker....:tongue:
OK 2 questions:
1) is the factory rear beam bushing dangerous? I've read it causes unpredictability at the limit. Is this true?
2) do brake lines do anything? My car is an 05 with 10k miles. I don't want to replace a perfectly good factory part with bling. But if you guys say change them then I will.
I'll hold off on anything more extensive and keep working on myself.
1) is the factory rear beam bushing dangerous? I've read it causes unpredictability at the limit. Is this true?
2) do brake lines do anything? My car is an 05 with 10k miles. I don't want to replace a perfectly good factory part with bling. But if you guys say change them then I will.
I'll hold off on anything more extensive and keep working on myself.
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As to the rear beam I changed mine after driving a car with the comptech pieces in place.I could feel the slight wiggles and subtle but unsetling rear car movements under load.So for me I could "feel" the difference and it greatly improved my confidence as I got quicker.Of course this was after 2 full seasons of events.
Since you asked again, I will give you my $0.02 again.
Your NSX in its current configuration is at least 4 steps ahead of you in its capabilities but it comes with a price in the hands of a not skilled driver.
The toe link and rear beam bushings will help you have a more predictable rear and it will signal you before it totally lets go for a spin. Do it if you track your car.
Unless you are really at a track that is demanding in brakes and you are aggressive with your brakes, I wouldn't worry about ducting yet and there are other options. You can take the dust shield off first. [I saw you asking about Stoptech brakes; unless you are tracking at 90+F they will do just fine without ducting and with your CTSC.]
OEM brake lines are fine. When you swap to BBK they will send you SS lines.
Suspension is not needed yet unless at the speeds you are driving you see nose dive upon braking, or way too much lean upon taking turns. If the nose is diving, then you might start considering some stiffer options. If the body is leaning too much, go with thicker sway bars - Dali makes a great one for track and targa in 1" thickness. And 5-6 point harness will do wonders in feeling more secure - it is good for some 2-3 seconds off your times!
Baffled oil pan is good especially if you are to transition to R compounds. For street tires it is marginal but it is a cheap safety to have. I would do it if I were you.
As others have said, many owners jump with mods before mastering the limits of what they have thus using mods to enhance lacking driving skills or guts. I agree in incrementally adding mods and appreciating what each mod does to the car so you can adjust it to your driving. My first mod was the sway bars followed by Bilsteins, then better pads ....... it took me 6 years and some 60 track days to transition to R compound, 9 years to get to a CTSC to keep up, 10 years using OEM calipers (last year went with Stoptech), ..... and I wasn't a slouch with the local weekend boy racers because I focused on mastering more what I had within my budget.
Sometimes when I read the recommendations by others, I just laugh ........ it is more showing off of bravado knowledge than addressing the specific need of the OP. YMMV :wink:
Your NSX in its current configuration is at least 4 steps ahead of you in its capabilities but it comes with a price in the hands of a not skilled driver.
The toe link and rear beam bushings will help you have a more predictable rear and it will signal you before it totally lets go for a spin. Do it if you track your car.
Unless you are really at a track that is demanding in brakes and you are aggressive with your brakes, I wouldn't worry about ducting yet and there are other options. You can take the dust shield off first. [I saw you asking about Stoptech brakes; unless you are tracking at 90+F they will do just fine without ducting and with your CTSC.]
OEM brake lines are fine. When you swap to BBK they will send you SS lines.
Suspension is not needed yet unless at the speeds you are driving you see nose dive upon braking, or way too much lean upon taking turns. If the nose is diving, then you might start considering some stiffer options. If the body is leaning too much, go with thicker sway bars - Dali makes a great one for track and targa in 1" thickness. And 5-6 point harness will do wonders in feeling more secure - it is good for some 2-3 seconds off your times!
Baffled oil pan is good especially if you are to transition to R compounds. For street tires it is marginal but it is a cheap safety to have. I would do it if I were you.
As others have said, many owners jump with mods before mastering the limits of what they have thus using mods to enhance lacking driving skills or guts. I agree in incrementally adding mods and appreciating what each mod does to the car so you can adjust it to your driving. My first mod was the sway bars followed by Bilsteins, then better pads ....... it took me 6 years and some 60 track days to transition to R compound, 9 years to get to a CTSC to keep up, 10 years using OEM calipers (last year went with Stoptech), ..... and I wasn't a slouch with the local weekend boy racers because I focused on mastering more what I had within my budget.
Sometimes when I read the recommendations by others, I just laugh ........ it is more showing off of bravado knowledge than addressing the specific need of the OP. YMMV :wink:
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After tracking CTSC cars as well as stock suspensioned 02+ cars, my personal recommendation (for what value that's worth, and not to have anything negative to say about the other posts) would be to go with suspension. Your car has 1/13th the miles of mine and the bushings are in much better condition and the deflection is minimal even in my car with suspension. IMO, suspension with a good track alignment will make the nsx easier to drive and more predictable on track ESPECIALLY since you have a CTSC. Since you have that much more low end torque, its even more crucial to have a suspension and alignment that won't have you fighting for rear grip. So a suspension with a proper alignment will be a far bigger fference in safety and predictability than reducing slight deflection alone, especially on such a new car.
What tire size and model (Z1 starspec?), and tire pressure are you running front and rear again?
Stainless Steel lines do make a diffeence in feel but since ur car is so new, just put good fluids and pads in. Most people (even those sho track a lot) are still very innefficient under braking and don't brake hard/late enough to need upgraded brakes. A proper racing school will teach you how to use them properly and how to corner faster. So especially after a school - GET A BAFFLED PAN!!!!!!! Or risk losing a rod bearing which is possible ON STREET TIRES! There is absolutely no reason not to invest in a baffle especially since the NSX dosnt have any factory baffling. STMPO has a great baffle and ill have track data to provide a review soon (I have it on my personal car/FXMD test mule. PM me for pricing on the STMPO baffle.
At a minimum, invest in a baffle, brake fluid and pads, racing alignment, and a racing school. Afterwards I say go for the suspension/corner balance/and alignment (which we can provide for local people in Southern California/Las Vegas area).
The CTSC puts you in a unique position since you have the power but not the suspension or brakes to match the increased performance capabilities of the car.
What tire size and model (Z1 starspec?), and tire pressure are you running front and rear again?
Stainless Steel lines do make a diffeence in feel but since ur car is so new, just put good fluids and pads in. Most people (even those sho track a lot) are still very innefficient under braking and don't brake hard/late enough to need upgraded brakes. A proper racing school will teach you how to use them properly and how to corner faster. So especially after a school - GET A BAFFLED PAN!!!!!!! Or risk losing a rod bearing which is possible ON STREET TIRES! There is absolutely no reason not to invest in a baffle especially since the NSX dosnt have any factory baffling. STMPO has a great baffle and ill have track data to provide a review soon (I have it on my personal car/FXMD test mule. PM me for pricing on the STMPO baffle.
At a minimum, invest in a baffle, brake fluid and pads, racing alignment, and a racing school. Afterwards I say go for the suspension/corner balance/and alignment (which we can provide for local people in Southern California/Las Vegas area).
The CTSC puts you in a unique position since you have the power but not the suspension or brakes to match the increased performance capabilities of the car.
Billy, let me understand your perspective. The NSX's OEM suspension was developed by Senna's input as well as extensive testing afterward by Patrick Johnston. Yes, that was some 20 years ago, and yes technology has advanced where "drivers" can improve on pretty much all aspects of any model year NSX.
Having said this, is your position that a driver like Dave with limited seat time, and quite a high level of being risk averse, is in a position to have reached the limits of the OEM set up in such a short time so much so to do all the significant suspension and alignment changes that you are recommending - even with a CTSC?
Dave's car is NOT a track car and he tracks on street tires hence a racing suspension, IMHO, is not an appropriate advice - perhaps the 91 alignment is if he is willing to accept tire wear. The OEM brakes are fine but we have already talked about any tracker needs better pads and I believe Dave has shopped for those before. We agree regarding baffled pan - but again let's not oversell this in its critical importance with street tires or tracks that are pretty flat. Some of us locals have tracked for 8 years and at least 6-10 tracks per year with the OEM pan with no issues - but yes there is a statistical probability that it might happen.
Dave, regarding tire pressure with your current OEM set up, the OEM tires like hot at the track no more than 33/40 psi. Try to to see how that works with your aftermarket tires and adjust by no more than 2 psi at a time (don't putz around during cool down lap if you are checking tire pressure - also check tire temperatures across if you have the tool). The tire pressures do make a huge difference in feeling planted vs. loose and greasy if they are too hot.
I still think for now, the best value for Dave is seat time (professional school is great if it is in the budget), toe link/rear bushings and sway bars. Baffle too :wink:
Having said this, is your position that a driver like Dave with limited seat time, and quite a high level of being risk averse, is in a position to have reached the limits of the OEM set up in such a short time so much so to do all the significant suspension and alignment changes that you are recommending - even with a CTSC?
Dave's car is NOT a track car and he tracks on street tires hence a racing suspension, IMHO, is not an appropriate advice - perhaps the 91 alignment is if he is willing to accept tire wear. The OEM brakes are fine but we have already talked about any tracker needs better pads and I believe Dave has shopped for those before. We agree regarding baffled pan - but again let's not oversell this in its critical importance with street tires or tracks that are pretty flat. Some of us locals have tracked for 8 years and at least 6-10 tracks per year with the OEM pan with no issues - but yes there is a statistical probability that it might happen.
Dave, regarding tire pressure with your current OEM set up, the OEM tires like hot at the track no more than 33/40 psi. Try to to see how that works with your aftermarket tires and adjust by no more than 2 psi at a time (don't putz around during cool down lap if you are checking tire pressure - also check tire temperatures across if you have the tool). The tire pressures do make a huge difference in feeling planted vs. loose and greasy if they are too hot.
I still think for now, the best value for Dave is seat time (professional school is great if it is in the budget), toe link/rear bushings and sway bars. Baffle too :wink:
The amount of testing that productions cars undergo is unbelievable from NVH testing, suspension testing, acceptable tire wear, handling characteristics (safe understeer), etc... Everything is a system designed to meet certain standards set by the OEM manufacturer. Once you change the tires from stock, you do change the handling, balance, NHV, and every aspect that made the OEM car meet those standards. This does NOT mean the NSX's handling and performance can't be improved over stock and its quite the contrary. With that in mind, the NSX's alignment and suspension setup is a substantial compromise between tire wear, safe handling on the street, etc... and not for peak performance.
For the OEM loyalists: the stock setup was not designed for the added power of a super charger, the stock setup is not designed for ideal track use (and thus there are better track/street compromises in alignment, etc...). If you want to go as far as saying the NSX's suspension was 'setup by Senna' -while he did a lot of testing, that was for the NA1 and whatever continued development until his unfortunate passing. So the NA2 wasn't directly from his feedback. Continuing the argument, once he put the NSX-R bar on the front of his car, the OEM setup is now irrelevant because the front swaybar is now stiffer - so the alignment and handling isn't what OEM-specd. He dosn't have the NSX-R suspension and the front bar was not 'designed for the regular base NSX suspension'.
While I dont agree with the above argument from OEM-loyalists, I will say that through testing, there are better alignments for someone who occasionally tracks their car that won't be too bad in terms of tire life but will greatly improve the handling characteristics and stability of the car. Also through testing, different tire sizes, swaybars, spring rates, ride height/rake, dampers, aero, etc... all can be improved over the OEM suspension. The stock 91 alignment is also not necessarily 'better' for track use and I will also say that I wasn't too fond of the 02+'s alignment for track use and actually found it harder to drive and more 'twitchy' at the limit than a car with a more track-oriented alignment.
Going back to my first statement, the OEM alignment and setup for the NSX isn't the best IMO for someone who occasionally tracks their car. If they are willing to give up a little more tire wear for stability and performance on the street and track, faster laptimes will be the result. I do think the NSX-R front bar was a good addition to his setup to reduce steady-state front grip for stability and comfort (at the limit), but I also feel that a non OEM alignment would be better for his application.
As far as "Race" suspension goes. My recommended KW V3s are not an all out 'racing' suspension. KW calls the V3: "race technology for the street" and the V3s are OEM-equipped on the Mercedes CLK63 and SL65 Black Series cars -so the ride quality has to meet Mercedes' standards. The V3s are a great street/track suspension that is more comfortable on the street than most suspension options out there. With the double-adjustable dampers, the handling characteristics can be further improved and fine-tuned for the given tire size/sway bar/etc...
So, a better more track-oriented alignment will raise the performance level of the car on track and can also improve the stability of the car at the limit. With a quality suspension that is as adjustable as the V3, his suspension can be fine tuned for the tires/power level that are now above and beyond the capabilities of what the OEM setup was designed for. I will say that for his setup an alignment is a first on the to do list while it's necessary anyway after a suspension upgrade.
As far as tires go, the Dunlop Star Spec is within a couple seconds of R-compound tires. So the argument of street tires being 'mandatory' before R-compounds has become almost irrelevant in recent years from the tire wars of the manufacturers to make better and better street tires. Both the Starspec and the Yokohama ADO8 are some of the best street tires out there and the grip levels are quite impressive.
I have stated my opinion on the tire pressures many times on many threads. Overall, street tires don't like being too much higher than 40psi HOT and in most cases make the most grip at around 36-38psi hot. Since we are looking for stability and slight understeer, maximizing the rear tire's grip by targeting the 36-38psi hot in the rear would be ideal. Because of the front tire's smaller size (and depending on the alignment), having similar tire pressures front and rear with a proper alignment is usually better. I target 36-38psi HOT ALL AROUND which means for track use 30-32psi is usually a good COLD starting point.
When driven at the capabilities of what an NSX with modern (02+) 215/255 width tires, a stock NSX with modern "street"-classed tires CAN generate enough grip to cause oil starvation and lose a rod bearing on a long sweeping right-hand corner under sustained throttle. Without any baffling, and since the sump pickup is on the right side of the pan, driving the NSX at its capabilities (which albeit is quite high) can lead to problems. Again, there is no reason not to invest in a quality baffle like STMPO.
Billy, I appreciate your response. My assessment, based on following some of Dave's previous posts, and at this stage of his driving interest/skills he is not where you are pushing him and will not appreciate what each additional enhancing change will to do the handling of his NSX thus maximizing his learning curve and skills. But if he has the resources to spend it all up front rather than enjoy the journey as he progresses, then that is his call.
As an instructor, I stand by my recommendation in post #34, and we may agree to disagree :wink:
As an instructor, I stand by my recommendation in post #34, and we may agree to disagree :wink:
That has been my point all along. I have watched and photographed Dave at Watkins Glen and although he is a very good driver my "fear" all along is that he is rushing to make his car faster before making himself faster. I understand and appreciate he is "tired" of hearing me say that but I guess I am being as over-protective of him as my NSXCA mentors were of me since my first track days at NSXPO 2001 at Road America.
From said arguments, the most logical thing to do would be to sell the SC kit and pay for a racing school and more seat time since the SC is too much for a new driver to handle. Taking that even further, sell the NSX and buy a spec miata since the NSX isn't as much of a "momentum" car as the SM, so you'll learn more from the SM than the NSX.
I disagree. A SC NSX is fine for a beginner as is a 911 GT3. The GT3 is as fast as the Koni Challenge cars I race, and its more than fast enough for anyone. I recently worked with someone new to tracking and I found it to be a great handling, good platform for him to learn on, and he enjoys exploring the limits of that car. Anyway, I'm not going to get into an ego contest in regards to the "instructor" comment or mean anything by my instructing statement other than it being an example of a newby with a much higher performing car. For the OP, keep the SC, it puts the NSX into a more competitive level to the power of modern sports cars.
I remember watching your in-car footage from Road America and effectively using your brakes will yield SECONDS per lap. Thus a racing school will be your best investment.
Since you wanted to buy something materialistic for your car (hey, everyone has the itch), while I am still a proponent of improving yourself as a driver before the car, I feel in terms of a part, the V3s and a better alignment will be the best option over the previously stated recommendations.
Billy
I disagree. A SC NSX is fine for a beginner as is a 911 GT3. The GT3 is as fast as the Koni Challenge cars I race, and its more than fast enough for anyone. I recently worked with someone new to tracking and I found it to be a great handling, good platform for him to learn on, and he enjoys exploring the limits of that car. Anyway, I'm not going to get into an ego contest in regards to the "instructor" comment or mean anything by my instructing statement other than it being an example of a newby with a much higher performing car. For the OP, keep the SC, it puts the NSX into a more competitive level to the power of modern sports cars.
I remember watching your in-car footage from Road America and effectively using your brakes will yield SECONDS per lap. Thus a racing school will be your best investment.
Since you wanted to buy something materialistic for your car (hey, everyone has the itch), while I am still a proponent of improving yourself as a driver before the car, I feel in terms of a part, the V3s and a better alignment will be the best option over the previously stated recommendations.
Billy
I just wanted to say this is a very informative thread and thanks to all who posted.
Good luck Dave!
I'd say go for the racing school to get that higher level of learning then suspension kw, jrz or whatever (corner weighted and dialed in of course) and the baffled oil pan for insurance.
Crawls back into my cave.
Celtics suck! Lakers rock! :biggrin:
Good luck Dave!
I'd say go for the racing school to get that higher level of learning then suspension kw, jrz or whatever (corner weighted and dialed in of course) and the baffled oil pan for insurance.
Crawls back into my cave.
Celtics suck! Lakers rock! :biggrin:
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Yes, Thanks to all above. This is very useful stuff. Since next month will be my first time at the track! this will be fun..
From a student perspective... the mods I like are the ones that give me more feel. Last year I replaced my RT615's with Star Spec Z1's mid season, after having been on the track and skidpad with the 615's. I think those tires made me so much faster, because they gave me a lot more confidence. The SSZ1's were gentle all the way to the limit with plenty of warning and still gentle AFTER the limit, and I felt a lot more comfortable with the car. I drove faster. When you are still a novice, parts that inspire confidence are the ones that help.
It sounds like the bushings, alignment, suspension (properly setup), and a harness would all inspire more confidence and give me more feel. I guess whether the bushings need to come first or the KW's isn't all that important. I really understand both sides of the argument.
I also understand all the guys that stress that the driver needs to be better, but I want to state as much as a novice as I was, I could CLEARLY tell the difference in the tires and having the car behave better was fantastic. There are parts that make the car faster in the hands of an advanced driver. You guys say "last thing you need is a faster car. Stop modding and take some lessons". And I agree 100%. But if I can make a mod and it allows me to feel the car more, it will make me learn faster. I hope you instructor guys remember that. It may not matter that much to you, but it means a lot to a guy like me. I drove my cousin's CLK the other day and the steering was so vague I really don't know what the car was doing. I don't know how he learns in that car.
I think a Spec Miata is an easier car to learn in because you push the limits and wow... you are still only going 38 MPH around the corner. But if it was slow and had bad feel, if it was a car with bad balance and lots of improper overseteer, vague steering feel and grabby brakes, it would be a shitty car to learn in no matter HOW SLOW the thing is. Right?
The one thing that is clear to me at this point is that modding a car for speed and modding a car for feel are two different things. The bushings will help feel, as will a proper suspension, alignment, tires, even the material my ass sits on. Right now I struggle to keep myself from sliding all over my seat at the track. I took notice of this after I realized how tired my thighs and my abs were late in the day. I get a workout just keeping myself in place. How can I concentrate on the nuances of steering properly when I am using the wheel to hold my own ass in place?!
If I buy the KW so I can generate more cornering force, I am doing it for the wrong reason. But if I can get the car better setup, more balanced, better behaved, then it's not a bad mod to have. Unltimately that is what I seek right now. I have no desire to go with R compounds or slicks, because surely they will make the car faster, and surely they will slow my learning curve (nevermind put me at more risk).
For those of you that haven't seen me at the track... for at least 6 days I drove at like 60%. Everyone passed me. But I wanted to make sure I did everything right. I ran the track over and over and over. My instructor was happy. Once I was very comfortable, I pushed it up to 80% and all those guys that were passing me the days before, I was LAPPING them. I was immediately signed off for solo.
I'm going to do the baffled pan, and Billy if you can please give me some good alignment settings, I will do that and I will follow the tire pressures you recommend. I'll honestly probably just wait a bit, go to Skip Barber, then do the bushings, links, and the KW's. After that I will do harness, seats, steering wheel and look more seriously into a rollbar for the harness per John's strong recommendations. That will also allow me to get a HANS. After that, I am just going to concentrate on more track time. Certainly at that point the car will be as lively and balanced as I would want. It will also probably be plenty fast.
Thanks a lot for everyone's great advice. It's great to have access to such a knowledgable group of guys in this section of the forum.
It sounds like the bushings, alignment, suspension (properly setup), and a harness would all inspire more confidence and give me more feel. I guess whether the bushings need to come first or the KW's isn't all that important. I really understand both sides of the argument.
I also understand all the guys that stress that the driver needs to be better, but I want to state as much as a novice as I was, I could CLEARLY tell the difference in the tires and having the car behave better was fantastic. There are parts that make the car faster in the hands of an advanced driver. You guys say "last thing you need is a faster car. Stop modding and take some lessons". And I agree 100%. But if I can make a mod and it allows me to feel the car more, it will make me learn faster. I hope you instructor guys remember that. It may not matter that much to you, but it means a lot to a guy like me. I drove my cousin's CLK the other day and the steering was so vague I really don't know what the car was doing. I don't know how he learns in that car.
I think a Spec Miata is an easier car to learn in because you push the limits and wow... you are still only going 38 MPH around the corner. But if it was slow and had bad feel, if it was a car with bad balance and lots of improper overseteer, vague steering feel and grabby brakes, it would be a shitty car to learn in no matter HOW SLOW the thing is. Right?
The one thing that is clear to me at this point is that modding a car for speed and modding a car for feel are two different things. The bushings will help feel, as will a proper suspension, alignment, tires, even the material my ass sits on. Right now I struggle to keep myself from sliding all over my seat at the track. I took notice of this after I realized how tired my thighs and my abs were late in the day. I get a workout just keeping myself in place. How can I concentrate on the nuances of steering properly when I am using the wheel to hold my own ass in place?!
If I buy the KW so I can generate more cornering force, I am doing it for the wrong reason. But if I can get the car better setup, more balanced, better behaved, then it's not a bad mod to have. Unltimately that is what I seek right now. I have no desire to go with R compounds or slicks, because surely they will make the car faster, and surely they will slow my learning curve (nevermind put me at more risk).
For those of you that haven't seen me at the track... for at least 6 days I drove at like 60%. Everyone passed me. But I wanted to make sure I did everything right. I ran the track over and over and over. My instructor was happy. Once I was very comfortable, I pushed it up to 80% and all those guys that were passing me the days before, I was LAPPING them. I was immediately signed off for solo.
I'm going to do the baffled pan, and Billy if you can please give me some good alignment settings, I will do that and I will follow the tire pressures you recommend. I'll honestly probably just wait a bit, go to Skip Barber, then do the bushings, links, and the KW's. After that I will do harness, seats, steering wheel and look more seriously into a rollbar for the harness per John's strong recommendations. That will also allow me to get a HANS. After that, I am just going to concentrate on more track time. Certainly at that point the car will be as lively and balanced as I would want. It will also probably be plenty fast.
Thanks a lot for everyone's great advice. It's great to have access to such a knowledgable group of guys in this section of the forum.
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Want to make a bet? A Spec Miata with a good driver will probably lap faster than you in that SC NSX.
A Spec Miata is a good car to learn because it is well balanced, rear drive, light and requires you to learn how to keep momentum going around the track. Remember that it's average speed around the track that counts.
Here is the perfect example of what happens when you drive a fast car but you don't have the experience to keep that momentum going. Ever see a NSX have to break harder than necessary to keep from running into the back of a Carrera GT or Lambo Diablo on every corner? (sorry Dan).
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The Star Specs were by far the best move you have done thus far. The 615s get greasy very quickly especially in 70*F+ weather, and they are not very communicative at the limit and the grip after the tire is sliding is pretty low. The SSZ1 and AD08 make a lot more audible noise than the 615 and give more feedback at the limit as well as have more grip once the tire is sliding. I will say however, that the 615s do make a lot of grip, noise, and grip when sliding in very cold climates, but anything warm (let alone hot) they are very vague.
The SSZ1/AD08 are also about a couple seconds off of R-compound tires. On a Speed World Challenge Touring Car, the AD07 (which is about a second slower than the AD08 on a 1-2 minute track) was just over a second slower than the Toyo R888 R-compound tire. Although I won't make the claim the AD08 is as fast as the R888, it should be within a couple seconds of the R888 at most tracks.
The SSZ1/AD08 are also about a couple seconds off of R-compound tires. On a Speed World Challenge Touring Car, the AD07 (which is about a second slower than the AD08 on a 1-2 minute track) was just over a second slower than the Toyo R888 R-compound tire. Although I won't make the claim the AD08 is as fast as the R888, it should be within a couple seconds of the R888 at most tracks.
IMO that is the suspension over the bushings.
Maybe invest in a Recaro RPF1 or Downforce NSX-R replica seat?
As stated above, R-compounds really aren't much faster than your current tires. I also disagree somewhat that R-compounds will slow your learning curve. Just like your Spec Miata rebuttal, your high grip street tires (or R-compounds) will make your cornering speeds higher and lap times better just like a SC NSX will because of its greater performance over a SM.
Dave, I know you will do what ultimate meets your psyche. All inputs have merits based on what you are shopping for :wink:
But let me suggest if not correct a conceptual error that you (and most of us) have made.
When you note that you were driving 60% then to 80%, please realize that this is "your" assessment of 60%-80% of the car's acapabilities. When I am at the track, I think I am driving at 95% of the car's potential (always leaving a margin for safety/error) only to be told by my daughter that when Kip took her for a ride in my own car on the same track, he was fatser and he was holding back LOL!
Second error, making a mod "allows me to feel the car more, it will make me learn faster" not true unless you have already maximized the potential of what you had before the mod. The mod will simply compensate what you did not master before. Why do you think people jump to R compound after 3-4 track days while we continue to preach to them it is too early!! And if you have mastered it, then indeed go to the next level - incrementally.
But I will repeat, with your CTSC to build more confidence with what you have you NEED the toe link/rear beam, sway bars, and yes the baffle before any other suspension mods. And there are quite a few other options in suspension, such as the Comptech Pro suspension .........
As for the seating .......... take the bottom cushion out and double loop your lap belt when the seat is back and then adjust the seat forwad to give you a more snug fit. And if you haven't started to get bruises on the left and right side of your left/right knees, then you are not going fast enough LOL!
But let me suggest if not correct a conceptual error that you (and most of us) have made.
When you note that you were driving 60% then to 80%, please realize that this is "your" assessment of 60%-80% of the car's acapabilities. When I am at the track, I think I am driving at 95% of the car's potential (always leaving a margin for safety/error) only to be told by my daughter that when Kip took her for a ride in my own car on the same track, he was fatser and he was holding back LOL!
Second error, making a mod "allows me to feel the car more, it will make me learn faster" not true unless you have already maximized the potential of what you had before the mod. The mod will simply compensate what you did not master before. Why do you think people jump to R compound after 3-4 track days while we continue to preach to them it is too early!! And if you have mastered it, then indeed go to the next level - incrementally.
But I will repeat, with your CTSC to build more confidence with what you have you NEED the toe link/rear beam, sway bars, and yes the baffle before any other suspension mods. And there are quite a few other options in suspension, such as the Comptech Pro suspension .........
As for the seating .......... take the bottom cushion out and double loop your lap belt when the seat is back and then adjust the seat forwad to give you a more snug fit. And if you haven't started to get bruises on the left and right side of your left/right knees, then you are not going fast enough LOL!
BTW a little off subject but -- After years of tracking the NSX, I'm looking for a beater/track car to go back and re-learn how to drive a car AT the limits. I have hit a plateau in my learning where to go further is to start increasing the risk. A beater, I can and will drive at 10/10ths. The learning will then translate back to the NSX. Will I then drive the NSX at 10/10ths? No. But I think my skills will be much improved and I think I will be faster in the NSX with just a little increase in the risk factor.
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