Need some advice

[TURBO2GO]

Guys I need some advice. I have 12 track days in so far at various tracks. I want to make no more than one or two mods to the car this year, and am having trouble deciding what to do. My car as you know is an 05 CTSC with some weight reduction but mostly stock otherwise.

I am trying to decide between the following. I want to do only one of these:

1) non-compliance rear beam bushings and toe links. From what I understand under full load on the suspension this can be a safety thing as much as a speed thing making the car more predictable at the limit. I guess the front non-compliance pivot clamps are not that critical for someone at my stage. If I am wrong about these assumptions let me know.

2) KW suspension. Right now I am stock with a Type R front sway bar, chassis bars, and a STMPO front chassis brace. Dunlop Z1's. I live in Boston and we have really shitty roads here, but I don't drive the car a whole lot. I don't want a stiff suspension, but my understanding is that the KW with proper springs will give me a very good ride street and be better than stock on the track. I suppose I could then sell my stock suspension and it isn't a terribly huge investment. This seems like the most exciting mod because its also some bling when the car is lowered, and maybe chix will dig it and I'll finally get laid but I don't wanna get ahead of myself.

3) Brake ducts and piping. This is a simple mod, just bigger cooling ducts and some piping. I am already running Carbotechs front and rear. This is cheap so I would probably add a good camera and mount with this.

4) Some sort of safety device. I really would like to have a HANS device, but I can't run it without a harness bar. After a lot of talk and advice from John@microsoft, I had sort of decided against a harness bar that really doesn't offer much protection other than the HANS and you sort of gain a bit of safety going to a harness but give up safety in a rollover. I'm now reconsidering it just for the HANS. I am not really ready to start carving up the car for a cage. If I am being stupid (am I john?), give it to me straight. I just would like to get maybe another 6-10 track days in this year and hopefully stay safe. Maybe I should get one of those foam neck braces and a suit? I don't know. Help me out...

5) Nothing. Leave the car alone, save the money for tires and pads, and keep trying to learn.

I know there is no real great answer, but if you were in my shoes, and were OK spending maybe $1500-2K on something (or less) for the year, what would you do?

Thanks.

 

[docjohn]

1 first and have fun,if you are as quick as you have claimed and you are sliding around abit in your seat or are having to brace yourself then a 5 or 6 point harness system would help.We have debated long and hard on the safety issues of harness systems and I think we all agree to disagree and do what we feel is best for the individual.Some groups though want the same belt system for the passenger ie instructer as you have.

 

[TURBO2GO]

1 first and have fun,if you are as quick as you have claimed and you are sliding around abit in your seat or are having to brace yourself then a 5 or 6 point harness system would help.We have debated long and hard on the safety issues of harness systems and I think we all agree to disagree and do what we feel is best for the individual.Some groups though want the same belt system for the passenger ie instructer as you have.

Doc, I'm definitely bracing myself, and definitely sliding around corners now because the Z1 makes me very confident. I wouldn't be pushing this hard on my old RT615's. The car understeers and I'm careful on corner exits not to accelerate too hard. I HATE oversteer in this car, I still cannot control it once the back end comes around. I know because I did a skidpad event. I do not ever want to experience that on the track.

So go with 1 and your vote is a harness bar and 6 points?

 

[docjohn]

yes but as you will see there will be folks who diagree with a 6 point without a cage.If you do decide that way then you will need to have an upholstery shop cut a slit in your seat bottom and resew it and your local shop will bolt the anti subs to the floor pan where it thickens up under your seat.I have this arangement and it works well.Your next step should still be more advanced instruction and imo r compounds.Max out your brakes with high boiling point fluids and braided lines good pads ect.

 

[Liquid]

Here are my thoughts on the options you presented. I have less experience on the track than you and also don't have any of the mods you are suggesting, so my advice may not be worth much but here it is anyway.

1.) Non-compliance beams and links - I don't know much about this mod but in your own words it seems like it might not be the top priority at this point.

2.) KW suspension - Would be a nice upgrade, but how dramatic an improvement do you expect over the stock suspension? I would consider this a nice to have... I don't think the stock suspension is a real limiting factor to you at the track right now. I could be wrong.

3.) Brake ducts and piping - Would improve your pad life and maybe improve your braking performance for a fairly small investment. Seems like a good low cost option to me.

4.) HANS/Harness Bar - You are basically making a tradeoff here... improved safety in the event of a serious, non-rollover crash versus possibly compromising your safety in the event of a rollover. I believe the odds are much more likely that you will have a non-rollover impact, especially when you keep in mind that only a small percentage of rollovers could cause an issue with the harness bar and a rollover that serious may be a problem even if you don't have the harness bar. I think you also have to do seats with this mod.

5.) Driving Suit - Seriously? Given the expense and the minimal safety benefits, this would be at or near the bottom of my list of priorities.

6.) Tracktime, Tires, and Pads - You're going to spend this money either way. This is probably coming off the top of available track money.


If it were my money, I would first spend it on tracktime, tires, and pads, up to a certain point. It would be foolish to track the car 20 days a year, spending thousands, without dialing that expense back and putting that money towards safety gear. The brake ducts are a cheap mod and no reason not to do that as far as I can tell. If you have the money, then I would go for the harness bar, HANS, and seats as my next option.

My 2c, others may have better advice for you.

 

[jas303]

The advice you need really depends on where you are now and where you want to be. For example, is your goal to achieve better lap time, to make the car look better, or just looking for a way to spend a few grand. Are you tracking for fun, as a social event, or want to be able to drive more skillful?

 

[docjohn]

The advice you need really depends on where you are now and where you want to be. For example, is your goal to achieve better lap time, to make the car look better, or just looking for a way to spend a few grand. Are you tracking for fun, as a social event, or want to be able to drive more skillful?

great points ,but if you have seen some of Dave' other track threads you will find that I doubt he has the answers to your questions:wink:

 

[TURBO2GO]

The advice you need really depends on where you are now and where you want to be. For example, is your goal to achieve better lap time, to make the car look better, or just looking for a way to spend a few grand. Are you tracking for fun, as a social event, or want to be able to drive more skillful?

Improve skill, have fun. I can't deny it's fun to pass others and much of that is probably due to the car. I got killed by a Ford GT and so that makes me itch for a mod. But this is all in fun, I'm not losing sleep over anything. For now I'm perfectly happy doing just HPDE's and sticking to 4-5 events a year. I don't do R comps because I drive 3,4,5 hundred miles to WGI or Monticello and don't have room for extra tires. It's a headache.

 

[Hrant]

1 first and have fun,if you are as quick as you have claimed and you are sliding around abit in your seat or are having to brace yourself then a 5 or 6 point harness system would help.We have debated long and hard on the safety issues of harness systems and I think we all agree to disagree and do what we feel is best for the individual.Some groups though want the same belt system for the passenger ie instructer as you have.

What John said.

 

[jas303]

Nothing in your list is going to make you faster nor have any more fun than you already did, so I am going to go with 5) nothing. Doc's suggestion is solid and reasonable with the selections given, but you need to know that for every mod you put in is going to leave a traceable mark. That is going to hurt your when you sell, and I'd hate to put anything, and I mean anything to such a wonderful car. NSX is no longer a very fast car among the modern sports cars, but it is definitely capable.

I would strong recommend a performance driving school with the budget you have. You can find a 1-2 days session for around $3000. It will blow your mind away if you have not attended one before. You'll have more fun and learn more than you ever can by yourself. You will drive much faster while be safer. Please remember that it's not how fast your car is, it's how fast YOU are. Sure we do find those immature ones talking about how their NSX can beat people at stoplights. However, there is zero skill involved in that; all you need is recklessness and stupidity. On a racetrack, you get more respect for who you are more than what car/mods you have. A performance driving school will really make you a different driver in a lot of better ways.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Jas I'm doing HPDE's. What are you talking about with schools? I was just signed off to go solo but i still take instructors half the time. You are confusing me. Are you talking about a skip barber or something? I want to learn my car. What do you mean "take a school"?

 

[jas303]

You should try letting the track day instructor drive your car with you on the passenger's seat.

Yes, Skipbarber is one of them, but there are a lot of good racing and high performance driving schools out there.

 

[FXMDBilly]

I agree with Jas about going to a professional 3-day racing school like Skip Barber, Jim Russell, or Bob Bonderant. Russell's cars are too expensive and over the top, SB is one of the best options, but Bonderant probably has the best bang/buck, better cars than SB but not irrelevant like JRs.

You will learn FAR MORE from a professional school like the above than most of the "instructors" at HPDE events. You'll also have to erase some things from your memory from bad techniques or habits you've learned from those HPDE 'instructors' as well. Overall it's the best $3-4K you can INVEST -in yourself, your abilities, and it's definitely something you have to check off the to do list for a person who tracks their car.

I will also caution you that there are tons of people who would love to jump in and instruct you in your NSX. Be very picky and ask around before letting any yahoo tell you or especially show you 'how to do it'.

I'm all for improving the driver over the car but from a car standpoint, I would probably say go with the V3s. Didn't you already buy V3's from someone? With a CTSC and good tires (Z1), I would suggest getting suspension next before the non compliance clamp.


Billy

 

[TURBO2GO]

Billy believe me no one knows more about the yahoos at HPDE's than me. I have had more than my share of clowns to the point I had to complain about them. I wish someone had told me this before. You go in as a novice student, and the clown is in a position of authority. So you do what he says. I wish I knew what it really takes to qualify as an instructor before I was setup with some of these people. If you can't tell, I am still angry about some shit that went on.

Anyway... I will look into these schools. But for that same 3K I can probably get at least 15 track days in on various tracks with an instructor. Is it still worth it? Will I learn more better basics at 2 days of Barber or Russell than having 15 HPDE track days?

No, I have not bought V3's. Tell me why you think this is a better step than the non-compliance rear beam and toe links. I am not talking about front pivot clamps.

 

[TURBO2GO]

You should try letting the track day instructor drive your car with you on the passenger's seat.

I have. But a few of my instructors seemed to be more into the fun of driving my car than teaching. Both at Trackmasters and BMWCCA.

 

[FXMDBilly]

Billy believe me no one knows more about the yahoos at HPDE's than me. I have had more than my share of clowns to the point I had to complain about them. I wish someone had told me this before. You go in as a novice student, and the clown is in a position of authority. So you do what he says. I wish I knew what it really takes to qualify as an instructor before I was setup with some of these people. If you can't tell, I am still angry about some shit that went on.

You too can become an 'instructor' with the amount of seat time you have, or by befriending the lead 'instructors'. I see it all the time...

Anyway... I will look into these schools. But for that same 3K I can probably get at least 15 track days in on various tracks with an instructor. Is it still worth it? Will I learn more better basics at 2 days of Barber or Russell than having 15 HPDE track days?

I think Skip Barber's 3-day RACING SCHOOL (not HP driving school) is $4,500-5,000. Because of the economy, there are discounts right and left so I think I heard people getting them for $3K. Bonderant is also a great option but the track isn't as cool, but better cars than Skippy's Formula cars. With as many track days as you have under your belt, I would say go for the racing school. If you had 2 days under your belt, I might say get more seat time first to get the handle of things so you'll get more out of the racing school, but where you're at now, go for it. You'll learn so much that I think it would be more valuable to do the 3-day racing school and 2 track days rather than 17 HPDE days (15+2).

No, I have not bought V3's. Tell me why you think this is a better step than the non-compliance rear beam and toe links. I am not talking about front pivot clamps.

Hmm, if its the rear beam and toe-link vs. suspension, i might still go with suspension. I couldhave sworn your sig said you had V3's a week ago... Anyway, I think controlling the weight transfer with a better suspension like KW is more valuable than reducing deflection with the toe links and beam. I think the car will be easier to drive and more predictable with the suspension (over stock) than the toe link/beam. Having driven many cars from SC, Turbo, NA as well as stock suspension, KW, many others, to stock vs. non compliance beam/toe links, and every combination in between. Go with suspension. FWIW my car has V3s and no toe link/beams (yet).

 

[jas303]

I will also caution you that there are tons of people who would love to jump in and instruct you in your NSX. Be very picky and ask around before letting any yahoo tell you or especially show you 'how to do it'.

Nice catch. I totally missed that. The point is to have someone who's experienced and skillful to show us how our cars can perform beyond our abilities. It was a really enlightening and encouraging experience for me when I first started this sport. An "instructor" is probably a nobody in your standard, but he was pretty darn fast for me on my first track day.

 

[jas303]

You too can become an 'instructor' with the amount of seat time you have, or by befriending the lead 'instructors'. I see it all the time...

ewww......that makes me sick..........I think I am going to throw up......

 

[FXMDBilly]

Nice catch. I totally missed that. The point is to have someone who's experienced and skillful to show us how our cars can perform beyond our abilities. It was a really enlightening and encouraging experience for me when I first started this sport. An "instructor" is probably a nobody in your standard, but he was pretty darn fast for me on my first track day.

A good instructor dosn't have to be the best or fastest driver. If he taught you good techniques and made you a better driver, then great! But it seems like everyone and their mother these days are 'instructors'. Probably equally as bad as how many ECU "tuners" there are out there.

There are good and reputable instructors out there, and not all have huge racing resumes, you just have to look harder to find them.

 

[jas303]

A good instructor dosn't have to be the best or fastest driver. If he taught you good techniques and made you a better driver, then great! But it seems like everyone and their mother these days are 'instructors'. Probably equally as bad as how many ECU "tuners" there are out there.

There are good and reputable instructors out there, and not all have huge racing resumes, you just have to look harder to find them.

I always thought there is some kind of qualifications for those instructors. Mine was really nice. I asked him to show me how he would drive it after I kept cutting into the turn early. That was almost 10 years ago. I did also notice that they're not that good after I attended my performance driving sessions.

 

[RSO 34]

My "mods" were as follows in this order:

1. Skip Barber 3 day Racing School
2. Skip Barber 2 day Advanced Racing School
3. 20 HPDE days in the NSX with street tires and stock everything other than brake pads, brake lines and brake fluid.
4. Harness bar and 5 point belts
5. 15 more HPDE days in the NSX
6. Non-compliant rear beam/toe links/zanardi springs/koni yellow shocks
7. 20 more HPDE days in the NSX
8. R compound tires

I moved up in the Trackmasters program completely on street tires and didn't go to the R compounds until after 2 years of open track experience.

 

[docjohn]

I whole hardedly agree that there are some "clubs" with very weak instructer training and no standardized curiculum.There are some groups with better than average instructers.There are good instructers for beginers/intermediates and there are folks who can take very experienced drivers and make them faster.The problem occures with never evers who really don't know better and must deal with the complexities of the hpde for the first time.in that situation picking the best program from the getgo is key.Asking for a nsx/midengine instructer can't hurt but in aperfect world should not matter.Dave I think, as you guys have said, needs to find a few good intructers at his NE tracks.Dave you should talk to Peter Mills for referances,and also Tony F. head instructer for trackmasters and Monticelo.

 

[FXMDBilly]

My "mods" were as follows in this order:

You do realize he has a CTSC right? The limits of a CTSC car is very high on a track even with street tires.

My revision:

1. Skip Barber 3 day Racing School
2. Skip Barber 2 day Advanced Racing School
3. BAFFLED OIL PAN AND ACCUSUMP!!!
4. 5 HPDE days in the NSX with street tires and stock everything other than brake pads, brake lines and brake fluid.
5. KW V3
6. 5+ more HPDE track days
7. Harness bar and 5 point belts
8. Non-compliant rear beam/toe links/
9. 5+ more HPDE days in the NSX

 

[docjohn]

Billy this may be hard for you,but would you be so hot for the kw brand if you did not sell it, you see where I am going with this:wink:

 

[FXMDBilly]

Billy this may be hard for you,but would you be so hot for the kw brand if you did not sell it, you see where I am going with this:wink:

We sell other brands as well. I think it would be a great fit for his needs and having the Koni/Eibach setup on my NSX and M3, I think the V3s would be a better fit. I am an advocate for quality products and liked them well before our team was sponsored by KW which was before we sold them.