Need Help - This possible tranny issue sounds expensive

[comquat1]

I noticed this the other night when out driving. Say I'm in a parking lot and take off towards the exit driving one of the throughways, I shift into second gear and continue driving. As I approach the exit I let off the gas keeping the car in gear and let the engine do some of the breaking (as well as let the exhaust do some growling as well ). As soon as I let off the gas, I see my shifter kick forward maybe 1/2 to 1 cm in movement towards the front. Thought that was kinda odd, figured in the back of my head, crap this one when it gets bad is going to hurt the pocket book.

Anyways, I take it out today after a week of sitting and go to my parents house, no probs, actually the second gear kick is non-existent! I thought great!, but wait, I bet it's still there or will come back soon, as I arrive home I begin to back my car in to my garage as I always do and dammit if when I put it into reverse it feels every squirly and hessitant to just get in reverse, stay there and let me back into my garage. This feels this way as I'm in the process of backing up feathering the clutch to back in just so. I get it in and think ok, i need to go for a quick drive with the radio off to see if I can hear anything going on that doesn't sound right, I know something doesn't feel right.

So now I take it out again, with no radio on. As I shift from gear to gear I can sense a little "whirr" sound going on. Say I'm cruising in third or fourth and push in the clutch and slow down to 15-20 (where you can safely notch the shifter into first) I here a more pronounced "whirring" sound as I slide the shifter into first. Also it doesn't matter what gear I'm in now, if I let off of the gas and let the car coast in any gear right now I hear this same pronounced wirring, and only will it go away when I push the gas again.

I'm calling the Acura dealer monday to arrange for them to bend me over and give it to me sideways but I'd like to go in with some idea on what to specifically tell them to get into rather than pay for diagnostic time. I feel like I've got tranny issues, but I know this thing was cracked open for snap ring issues. Also of note, my car is in the snap ring range, but I was told this was taken care of by Acura of Brookfield. However after talking to my car's previous owner, he didn't recall if Brookfield replaced the half cases or not. He was thinking only that they took everything out, measured them for tollerance and then reinstalled them since they fell in tollerance. I'm going through my records now to verify this half case issue.

Anyone have any idea what I'm looking at here? I've gotta reread up on the snap ring issues and see if I do need new half cases, but I'm in the dark at this moment.

 

[comquat1]

Looked at my Acura of Brookfield records, supposedly the half cases were replaced when the short gears and clutch were installed but it makes no mention of this on the paperwork. Then the following repair AofB checked the car b/c it's tranny # was in the range and stated on the paperwork that half cases are new, so theoretically there would be no issue.

Also after reading the snap ring explanation, that is what my first and second gears are doing! Has anyone had the half cases replaced only to have them be an issue again later on?

Finally, does anyone know if you have to drop the whole engine to service the tranny? If so I'm going to order a set of belts and get a whole load of preventive maint. items taken care of. Any thing else I should have them do while the engine is out?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

This sure sounds like a snap-ring failure, but no need to speculate it is an easy check to see if this is the situation by inspecting the snap-ring with the trans in the car.

There is no need to remove the engine for transmission work. Frankly I would not remove it, too much work for little reason, unless you want water/pump, timing belt, 60K service, cam plugs, spool valve seals, get the idea??

HTH,
LarryB

 

[nsxtasy]

Yup, sure sounds like a snap ring failure, and it sounds like it has never been fixed. Don't drive it any more, except to get it to the shop.

I assume Bill Taylor is still the tech at your dealer? I thought he had seen at least a few such failures when I was discussing them with him a few years back. However, he may or may not be aware of the ability to fix them by replacing the snap ring and the upper transmission case, since Acura's policy when it was covered under warranty (or goodwill) was to replace the entire transmission. You may wish to print out that section of the FAQ to show him (particularly the part under the heading "HELP! My snap ring broke! / How much does repair cost?").

This repair should take about 10 hours of labor and $700-1000 in parts.

Assuming he is going to open up the transmission to do the snap ring repair, here are the other things I would consider doing at the same time:

- check the clutch for wear, and replace if needed

- check the hub selectors and synchros for wear, and replace if the teeth are getting worn

- if you are considering any gearing mods (short gears and/or ring and pinion gear), this would be the time to do them.

Also, note the date and mileage in your maintenance records. Changing the transmission fluid is normally done every 30K miles or 2 years; since that is done as part of this service, you won't have to do it again for another 30K miles / 2 years, even if you have a major scheduled maintenance done before then.

 

[comquat1]

I'm really wondering what AofB did then, because Jeff B was under the impression that a new upper case was put on. I remember our discussion like it was yesterday because I found it here in the paperwork and also he was saying that John got it covered under warranty.
See the the attached pic, this was the service after the clutch and short gears were installed.

 

[comquat1]

This is so frustrating, because had I known, I'd have had more leverage on negotiating the price, but I paid a premium (in my head) for knowing (or thinking) the snap ring was addressed already.

 

[nsxtasy]

I'm really wondering what AofB did then, because Jeff B was under the impression that a new upper case was put on. I remember our discussion like it was yesterday because I found it here in the paperwork and also he was saying that John got it covered under warranty.
See the the attached pic, this was the service after the clutch and short gears were installed.

Call John and ask him.

I'm not sure but he might be at the track on Monday, if you'd like to swing by and talk to him there, rather than wait for Tuesday... (Drive there in the Evo, not the NSX.)

Incidentally, I don't consider a $2500 repair on the NSX to be expensive. It's typical for a transmission repair or an A/C repair. And it's only about 3 percent of the purchase price of the car when new. Remember, you bought a used $80,000 car, not a new $30,000 car. And that's one of the differences.

 

[comquat1]

Ken, by track are you refering to Gingerman or Gratten?

 

[comquat1]

Incidentally, I don't consider a $2500 repair on the NSX to be expensive. It's typical for a transmission repair or an A/C repair. And it's only about 3 percent of the purchase price of the car when new. Remember, you bought a used $80,000 car, not a new $30,000 car. And that's one of the differences.

I understand, however this was something that I feel should not have been an issue after it was supposedly addressed with new half cases. Unless others have had problems with their tranny's after fixing the snap ring issue.

 

[comquat1]

Also, where's the tow hook located in the car? I don't see it in my trunk so I'm kinda baffled as to where else they would hide it. I'm obviously going to need it to get it up on a flatbed to go to the dealer.

It's an eyebolt that threads in right?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Front lower valance, right side. Remove the small plastic cover. Page 1-9 in the online service manual shows all tow points.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[comquat1]

Nevermind I'm an idiot! I see how it is now in the manual, for some reason I recalled seeing pics of cars with a screwed in eyebolt for a tow hook....

 

[nsxtasy]

Ken, by track are you refering to Gingerman or Gratten?

GingerMan, with CGI.

I'm not positive he's coming, but he often comes to the CGI events. If he's not at the dealership on Monday, that's probably where he is.

 

[comquat1]

I'm going to call there today to see what their computer shows since my records aren't jiving.

 

[Chuck]

GingerMan, with CGI.

I'm not positive he's coming, but he often comes to the CGI events. If he's not at the dealership on Monday, that's probably where he is.

John is at all of the CGI events. We not only utilize his talents for technical assistance at the track but also use his fine skills as an instructor!

 

[comquat1]

To do the snap ring repair I'm reading that I need at least five parts.

Upper tranny case
1 snap ring
1 oil seal
1 differential taper bearing
1 shift lever seal

Anyone know the part numbers of these things off hand?
I'd like to just order the parts from an NSXCA dealer to get my discount and bring them with me to my dealer. I'm sure they won't be thrilled, but I'm guessing with what I will save on parts will more than pay for a couple of those ten hours of labor.

 

[comquat1]

Nevermind the above request, I continue to find my answers after looking hard enough!

 

[nsxtasy]

I'd like to just order the parts from an NSXCA dealer to get my discount and bring them with me to my dealer. I'm sure they won't be thrilled, but I'm guessing with what I will save on parts will more than pay for a couple of those ten hours of labor.

The prices that dealers offer to NSXCA members with a member discount are often great, particularly for the do-it-yourselfer. However, if you're having the work done by your local dealer, there are a few things to consider:

1. Some dealers refuse to use parts purchased elsewhere. 'nuff said.

2. Some dealers are willing to use parts purchased elsewhere, but you can get into problems if there are any problems with the repair (the installing dealer claims it's the fault of the parts, the parts dealer claims it's the fault of the installation).

3. Some dealer parts departments are willing to match discounts you can find elsewhere, or at least, to come close. Remember, prices are negotiable.

4. As you note, giving your dealer the chance to buy the parts as well as the labor from them can create a more positive relationship with them, and this may benefit you.

I'm not saying DON'T buy the parts elsewhere, but these are things you may want to think about and look into before proceeding to do so...

 

[comquat1]

Ken, believe me, I've had all of those thoughts in my head already. I may have to eat it and just purchase the parts from my dealer to "keep everyone happy." But I've talked to you before on where I'm going, I honestly feel they do great work, but but I think they inflate the number of hours it takes to do certain jobs. Which is why my thinking went, if I can save a couple or three hundred on parts, that will at least cover some of the extra manhours I'm going to get billed. So in the end it may come down to being charged as most others are.

Basically, my plan of attack is to 1. Call American Honda and see if there's any way they'll goodwill this considering an Acura dealer at the very least looked at the upper tranny case and verified it was in spec, if not actually replacing it. 2. Find out exactly what was done to my car when Vasos put in the short gears for Jeff. 3. Get it trailered over to the dealer for fixing.

 

[nsxtasy]

Basically, my plan of attack is to 1. Call American Honda and see if there's any way they'll goodwill this considering an Acura dealer at the very least looked at the upper tranny case and verified it was in spec, if not actually replacing it. 2. Find out exactly what was done to my car when Vasos put in the short gears for Jeff. 3. Get it trailered over to the dealer for fixing.

I would do number 2 before number 1. You'll need to know what was done if you're planning to use it as a basis for your call. Besides, John might be able to help you in some way regarding American Honda.

Unless trailering it is easy for you, I would consider driving it the 25 miles to the dealer. That's not the same thing as continuing to drive on it. And, if you don't do it during rush hour and you stick to the interstate instead of going down 28th Street, you'll do a minimum of shifting.

 

[comquat1]

Good idea Ken, Brookfield said John was scheduled to be in on Monday, are you guys sure he's going to be at Gingermen?

As for getting it there, my insurance will cover getting it towed to the nearest service facility so I'm not going to take any more chances, it's going on a flatbed.

On the bright side I do get to spend some quality time with the EVO as it was being neglected lately. I'm still impressed with that car every time I get into it, I'd say equally so to the NSX.

 

[nsxtasy]

Brookfield said John was scheduled to be in on Monday, are you guys sure he's going to be at Gingermen?

Chuck ought to know. But heck, just try calling him Monday morning at the dealership. If he's not there, you know where to find him.

On the bright side I do get to spend some quality time with the EVO as it was being neglected lately. I'm still impressed with that car every time I get into it, I'd say equally so to the NSX.

One of my fellow BMW CCA instructors bought one and is selling it after terrible treatment by his local dealership as well as by Mitsubishi Motors regarding a warranty issue. Check out the usual car boards (including the off-topic forum here on NSXprime); Mitsubishi's poor treatment of Evo owners has been widely reported. Maybe that's one reason they are in such severe financial difficulty. Nice car, but terrible people to have to buy it from.

 

[comquat1]

There's actually two good dealers here in GR, one that I've done VW work with and now my Evo simply because it's closest to work, but the other is equally decent. It all depends on the area and dealer you work with. It's not what you know, it's who you know that will help you out.

 

[comquat1]

Hopefully Larry will have an answer for me on this, but I'm looking at the TSB with regards to the snap ring and it tells how to see if the snap ring is broken by removing the 36mm sealing bolt. Is this something I could do myself just to verify things a bit before I start making my phone calls on monday? Or will I have a mess on my hands if I take that bolt out (like tranny fluid going everywhere?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Jack the car up on stands on the drivers side ONLY as high as feasible. Using a 1/2 drive extension and a breaker bar, you can loosen the nut. Put a pan under there, since a small amount of fluid will come out, depending on the angle the car is on. Once removed , look inside at the snap ring. You should see two tangs roughly parrallel to each other. If you see a few pieces at teh bottm of the inspection hole, well you have confirmed it is broken.

There was a thread recently with a great pick of a broken snapring. I would do a search for it.

HTH,
LarryB