Mugen rollbar

[TURBO2GO]

The B-Pillar structure is more robust on the targa, but it is still aluminum and is more than capable of collapsing like any roof during a roll-over.

OK, I really think that too many people think the fixed roof is a lot safer than the targa. Having seen the roof structure on a coupe, I don't think there is much difference. You may be F'ed in a rollover in either. Or any car for that matter.

The leading cause of fatalities in roll-overs is head contact with the upper door frame... so unless you want to start wearing a helmet and sipping your coffee through a straw on the way to work in the morning- having a front hoop with down-tubes might not be for you.

I don't get it. Why not? Upper door frame with a rollbar is still the same isn't it? the rollbar tube is behind you and the legs beside you.

Of course Dave.... on second thought.... didn't you recently infer you were thinking about maybe starting to wear your helmet on the street anyway?

LOL... you ass... you had to dig that up, huh?

I don't street drive my car that much. Just weekends. The most milage going on it is to and from track events these days. Maybe a night out. The chances of an "incident" for me are far greater on the track than on the street. If gear is going to create safety in one arena and be a detriment in the other, I prefer it create it for track use and be detrimental for street use.

 

[Frank Spano]

We should do a group buy on these mugen roll bars. Titanium Dave once told me if that there was enough interest he would consider making these. Sucks Mugen stopped making them, I believe new they were around $900- $1000. Frank

 

[scorp965]

We should do a group buy on these mugen roll bars. Titanium Dave once told me if that there was enough interest he would consider making these. Sucks Mugen stopped making them, I believe new they were around $900- $1000. Frank

The mugen bar was 195000JPY new (about $2070); with all due respect, Dave cannot produce a "mugen" roll bar.

The closest option currently produced is the roll bar ("back bone") from Arm's Engineering; I believe Kane is a dealer for Arm's Engineering.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

OK, I really think that too many people think the fixed roof is a lot safer than the targa. Having seen the roof structure on a coupe, I don't think there is much difference. You may be F'ed in a rollover in either. Or any car for that matter.

One of the problems on a targa is keeping the removable roof in place during a serious roll-over. Can be done.

I don't get it. Why not? Upper door frame with a rollbar is still the same isn't it? the rollbar tube is behind you and the legs beside you.

Adding a front hoop with down-tubes (a complete competition roll cage) in a production road car will inevitably put a steel bar in relatively close proximity to your head. Not ideal for the street. Inertia belts allow for too much movement and you could easily crack your head wide open on a steel bar in a side impact, for example. One of the reasons why side curtain airbags became mandatory is because of the mountains of side impact crash data on brain injuries caused by the head striking the door frame.

LOL... you ass... you had to dig that up, huh?

Yes, I really see no good reason to sacrifice comical humor on this forum. :biggrin:

I don't street drive my car that much. Just weekends. The most milage going on it is to and from track events these days. Maybe a night out. The chances of an "incident" for me are far greater on the track than on the street. If gear is going to create safety in one arena and be a detriment in the other, I prefer it create it for track use and be detrimental for street use.

Ok. I'll tell you what. Bring it on up and I'll talk to Eddie and see if we can get Adam to put a 6pt touring competition cage in for you before your next event. It is a PITA but if you want to go all out we can build you a copy of my cage. Just make sure you are ready to commit your car to track use. As Vin Diesel would say, "this is one of those moments where you need to be very clear in your communication" :tongue: :biggrin:

Above: The primary hoop structure we put into Eddie's SSB Civic SI this year. (Polishing courtesy Team Hudak Racing)

 

[Hrant]

John I was going to call you on this but may as well let everyone know. Can you tell me what something like this looks like? Is it something that fits behind the seats? What about Hrants concern over the A-pillar strength?

Hrant, didn't the factory design the targa to be able to survive some sort of minor rollover? I can't imagine it is that weak.

Dave, yes, the targa is reinforced and does handle "minor" rollover. The question again will be debated over how one defines "minor," like what "is" means ...... We witnessed one back at NSXPO 1999 when a yellow NSX driving spiritedly on back roads flipped. Someone can dig that picture .....

And it is my understanding - just yesterday when we were at the track with Shad, that he has the template to make the Comptech "roll bars." This is good news.

 

[v8killer]

I would be interested in a Comptech style roll bar. Is anyone making them?

 

[TURBO2GO]

We witnessed one back at NSXPO 1999 when a yellow NSX driving spiritedly on back roads flipped.

And so what happened?

 

[nsxnut]

I would be interested in a Comptech style roll bar. Is anyone making them?

Shad at Driving Ambitions has one.
I talked to him last Friday at the track.

http://www.drivingambition.us/

 

[Hrant]

And so what happened?

In Prime Gallery, look at the Crash and Burn folder. The 2000 yellow NSX in question is the fourth one from the top.

Further down, there is a 1995 red that has rolled with more serious damage.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Dave, yes, the targa is reinforced and does handle "minor" rollover. The question again will be debated over how one defines "minor," like what "is" means

So I guess we now know what minor looks like from people just dorking around on the street. Similarly, on a race track everything is usually fine.... until it's not fine. :smile:

The fact is that their have been a lot worse than these.

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And so what happened?

Dave, you know you don't want to just do the bare minimum here. You know you want to put one in your 05' targa...... nicely polished to match the silverstone space theme...

Crap, just think: you even get to wear your helmet on the street!! Chicks totally dig meeting space cadets at the stop lights. I always used to tell them that I was from Pegasus in the Beta-Andromeda nebula :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[YellowHaze]

Regarding the Mugen "roll" bar, hasn't anyone noticed how the top of the bar is lower than the headrest? I mean, unless you're ~4'10", your head ain't gonna get much protection in a roof crushing accident. Just an observation.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Regarding the Mugen "roll" bar, hasn't anyone noticed how the top of the bar is lower than the headrest? I mean, unless you're ~4'10", your head ain't gonna get much protection in a roof crushing accident. Just an observation.

It is possible many didn't notice because they were blinded by the bling. However, I too eluded to this in my post. Found this on the Yahoo Answers page:

I work for a Japanese company. The senior execs are in their early 60s, and average about 5'5". I'm an Amerigaijin in his late 40s, and am 5'11". They come up to my chin. The younger guys who spend a year or two here, late 20s to early 30s, are a lot closer to my height. The women (no, none are "office ladies" here in Houston) are about 5'3".


And Again Per the Wikipedia:

Average Human Heights:
Japan: 171.5 cm (5' 7.5")
USA: 178.9 cm (5' 10.4")


And this is interesting... Wait, nevermind. I would post what I found on some of the NSFW XXX sites, but I don't want to offend anyone here. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


I can't speak to the cause. Must be all the protein in our diets. COWS are so YUMMY!! MOOOO!!

 

[TURBO2GO]

I always used to tell them that I was from Pegasus in the Beta-Andromeda nebula :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

LOL... Race Geek.

So although this thread has certainly been informative, I still don't know what to do. I am not keen on tearing into the NSX interior for a cage. And oh how I love driving it around a track. I ran around Monticello at probably 6/10ths. They have a straight there... I am pretty certain I can hit a minimum of 150 if I stayed in it. But I would get to 100, 110, and just cruise. There isn't much skill required in going fast down the straight. I let car after car pass me. I feel like I learned a lot more doing this than going 8/9/10/10ths like a lot of others do. I felt safe. That track was so big and so few of us were on there at one point I think I did 5 laps and didn't even see another car. It was awesome. John if you have never driven this track, you are missing out. Clean, smooth, well designed. Lots of run-off space everywhere. It is a really fun, safe track.

So is there no way to come up with something for the NSX that is not HORRIBLY intrusive and at least fairly effective? If there is a "front hoop" which now I am understanding to be the part that connects front of right sill, goes up through dash, across the windsheild, and down to the left front sill, along with the rear hoop, is that acceptable? In other words a full cage minus the side door beams? Or can there at least be removable side beams?

Maybe I am just being a big baby and need to buy a junker and make it a track car. Its just that the NSX is so fun to track then go out to a restaurant in. Dammit...

Oh and its not the Protein in the cows, its called Bovine growth hormone. You drink it with your cereal every morning.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

So is there no way to come up with something for the NSX that is not HORRIBLY intrusive and at least fairly effective? If there is a "front hoop" which now I am understanding to be the part that connects front of right sill, goes up through dash, across the windsheild, and down to the left front sill, along with the rear hoop, is that acceptable? In other words a full cage minus the side door beams? Or can there at least be removable side beams?

Sure, why not. I have a design in mind that I think would meet your requirements here. Shad or Adam or Greg or whomever can certainly custom fab you whatever you want. They can build a truely baller cage for that extra discerning NSX customer.

Just bring your check book. :wink:

So although this thread has certainly been informative, I still don't know what to do. I am not keen on tearing into the NSX interior for a cage. And oh how I love driving it around a track.

Maybe I am just being a big baby and need to buy a junker and make it a track car. Its just that the NSX is so fun to track then go out to a restaurant in. Dammit...

Hmmph. So it's sounds like we have come full circle and are back to the spec Miata then I guess?

Hey dear- you know what else is a lot of fun to go out to dinner in after hitting the track? A turbo diesel pickup truck with a magnaflow exhaust and super chip. Sexy!! You know with 650 ft lbs of torque they can do about the same 1/4 times as a stock NSX? :biggrin:

John if you have never driven this track, you are missing out. Clean, smooth, well designed. Lots of run-off space everywhere. It is a really fun, safe track.

I think I saw an ad on lifestyles of the rich & famous once. I very much would enjoy a tender massage from the spa while my car is being washed.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Sure, why not. I have a design in mind that I think would meet your requirements here.

Can we see it? Maybe Ross can build it and then we can have it welded localy?

One complaint I have heard from a lot of guys is their helmets hitting cage beams during transitions, etc. Uncomfortable they said. So much so that some really seasoned trackers were telling me to just get a rear section rollbar. I guess a 4 point... not for the NSX but for the POS track car. Is this a legit complaint?

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Can we see it?

Sure. One idea for a comprimise would be a 6 pt cage but without a dash bar and just a single lower cut door bar so that entry/egress is not as terribly compromised. Maybe something similar to the cage Frank used to have in his NSX for conference time trials. Another would be a removable door bar design (although, to be honest I'll tell you that you will never do it and I am not preferential to it). We should pick it up offline.

Maybe Ross can build it and then we can have it welded localy?

I can certainly talk to Ross about it if he is more conveniently located to you (not sure where you keep your car). I believe it was his guy Kyle that welded the cage in my 350Z race car years ago. Whatever the case, I am sure there is a suitable answer to be had. You are also more than welcome to use my trailer if you need transport going to whereever you decide. Maybe we can figure something out. :smile:

One complaint I have heard from a lot of guys is their helmets hitting cage beams during transitions, etc. Uncomfortable they said. So much so that some really seasoned trackers were telling me to just get a rear section rollbar. I guess a 4 point... not for the NSX but for the POS track car. Is this a legit complaint?

I don't know without looking at the setup. I don't care to comment or try and design a cage over the internet. It depends on the height of the driver, seat mounting, thickness of the padding, etc... but in general I would say that if this is a problem, then there is probably a problem. You don't want to be running around the track with your head cocked or in range to hit a ceiling bar with or without padding and a helmet on. That's not a good sign. This is one of the primary reasons why you really want to remove interior trim, to gain that extra clearance.

 

[ChopsJazz]

Adding a front hoop with down-tubes (a complete competition roll cage) in a production road car will inevitably put a steel bar in relatively close proximity to your head. Not ideal for the street. Inertia belts allow for too much movement and you could easily crack your head wide open on a steel bar in a side impact, for example. One of the reasons why side curtain airbags became mandatory is because of the mountains of side impact crash data on brain injuries caused by the head striking the door frame.

This is exactly why full cages should not be used on the street.

 

[jtower]

Hmmph. So it's sounds like we have come full circle and are back to the spec Miata then I guess?

haha, the guy i bought my nsx from sold it so he could start doing spec miata. and now i'm selling it in order to do spec miata (or possibly spec e30).

 

[jtower]

Sure. One idea for a comprimise would be a 6 pt cage but without a dash bar and just a single lower cut door bar so that entry/egress is not as terribly compromised. Maybe something similar to the cage Frank used to have in his NSX for conference time trials. Another would be a removable door bar design (although, to be honest I'll tell you that you will never do it and I am not preferential to it). We should pick it up offline.

i'm certainly no racing authority but it appears that single door bars are quickly becoming obsolete. just last night we had to weld a second door bar into the cage of our $500 lemons car just so it would pass tech.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

haha, the guy i bought my nsx from sold it so he could start doing spec miata. and now i'm selling it in order to do spec miata (or possibly spec e30).

Awesome! Can't wait to hear your stories next year. :smile:

i'm certainly no racing authority but it appears that single door bars are quickly becoming obsolete. just last night we had to weld a second door bar into the cage of our $500 lemons car just so it would pass tech.

True, but on the other hand I don't think Dave is going to be doing any racing in the immediate future and really need to satisfy the door bar requirement. Not that it couldn't be done anyway. But the nice thing is, if we can steer him in the right direction he can at least add NASCAR crash door bars later, and extend on what he has instead of having to start-over if he later decides to go ape shit.

BTW, the gang up here is building a $500 chump-car Miata at the moment too for the 24hr in October.... :biggrin:

 

[jtower]

True, but on the other hand I don't think Dave is going to be doing any racing in the immediate future and really need to satisfy the door bar requirement. Not that it couldn't be done anyway. But the nice thing is, if we can steer him in the right direction he can at least add NASCAR crash door bars later, and extend on what he has instead of having to start-over if he later decides to go ape shit.

BTW, the gang up here is building a $500 chump-car Miata at the moment too for the 24hr in October.... :biggrin:

yeah but it would be...unwise...to go to the trouble of installing a cage and not have it meet the technical requirements of almost any sanctioning body. just giving anyone who reads this thread fair warning.

good luck with the chump car, taking a miata to lemons is pretty much guaranteed to get you a ton of penalty laps so be forewarned. our integra did reasonably well in april (except for the penalties and the spun rod bearing) but we've replaced the motor, taken another 80 lbs out, and made a few suspension tweaks so hopefully we'll be even faster this time around! i had hoped to do the 24 hour race at nelson ledges but didn't get my entry submitted in time and it filled up. which is just as well because that frees me up to run at shenandoah that weekend instead

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

good luck with the chump car, taking a miata to lemons is pretty much guaranteed to get you a ton of penalty laps so be forewarned.

So what, it will be fast!!! Ours has racing pedigree. :wink:

 

[swerve2007]

nice find- cage and all..