Mugen rollbar

[Hrant]

......
You have a point which brings up a larger topic open to debate,what to bring to open track when the driver has graduated to fast. There is a wide diversity in safety measures/equipment at any open track day from stock street cars with oem belts and helmet, all the way to full cage /hans.

Exactly

I'm fast enough to be able to play with most other street cars ect.I'm comfortable with that.:redface:I'm ....... Much of that is budget/logistics based.

Ditto.

Exactly. I am suggesting that accidents can happen so maybe spending some money on proper safety gear might be a good idea (i.e. more than none)

Precisely.

So the question really becomes what does "spending some money on proper safety gear" means to a person like Dave who is 70/30 street vs track, or even those who are 50/50?

Almost all the veterans who started tracking their NSXs some 10-12 years ago (a few started even earlier), started with the very basics - mostly OEM set up and no harness bar. As they progressed they added mods to improve the handling, then tires, then brakes etc. .... and pretty much the last transition seems to be the safety related issues like portable extinguisher, harness bar, 5/6 point belts (and there has been extensive posts on the latter), Hans - just starting to catch on, Nomex suite, etc.

To my knowledge very few, probably less than a handful at best have roll cage if they also drive their NSX on streets. In here NorCal, I have probably seen 2 or 3 in the last 10 years with a Comptech roll cage, one of them being Don-nsxnut who tracks with us regularly - but he can fit in one with such a cage LOL! And only 6-7 track dedicated with a full roll cage (Doug Hayashi, DaliRacing, Mark Allan, Kip Olson, Steve-SMGNSX, and one or two more that may have showed up at either NSXPO 99 or 03).

Does this mean the rest of us "regular" weekend boy trackers haven't spend some money on safety gear? Sure we have but within our risk management criteria and budget, and a pretty good assessment of what type of risks we are willing to take or avoid at the track and which organizations we choose to do HDPE (note I did not refer to racing or timed laps).

Is this principle enough to meet someone else's standards or criteria of what safety ought to be? I think the answer is it really doesn't matter because the variables and the risk aversive varies among individuals.

To be more specific, I choose not track with some organizations because they hype semi-jokingly the "racing" smack aspects of their program even though the event is clearly HPDE. This lead to many yahoos who take this as card blanche to drive more aggressively and letting the adrenaline run into their head when dive bombing for that apex, or blocking ......... which makes the event less safe - all in relative terms.

Similarly, when I see drivers like Kip almost always at the razor edge of his car's ability to get that extra 1/10 second with two wheels almost always on the outside edge of the trackout berms (see the video from THill in Driving Ambition's post) I appreciate with amazement at the "calculated" risks he is willing to take to get that edge/advantage/win - which I am not willing to do because as John's post above said: "I'm fast enough to be able to play with most other street cars etc. I'm comfortable with that." When I am the track, its an escape from the daily routine/grind and I am there to have fun and come back in the same NSX that I drive to/from the track and not on a flat bed or trailer. Since I cognitively realize that an incident that can happen at any time and I am minimizing this risk within my tolerance levels, and not willing to be at 10/10, I would be a lousy racer :tongue:

So, where does this leave Dave. As I stated, if Dave can't stomach the potential loss (purely a statistical occurrence) with what he currently has, as John aptly noted too, the additional money Dave spends on safety gear is not going to do much to help him at this stage of his driving if he doesn't first IMHO:

(a) Improve himself as a driver with much more seat time and before adding more go fast crack pipes ......

Dave, unless you are one of those undiscovered gems when it comes to driving skills, candidly, 5-7 track events don't make you a driver at the level of concerns you seem to have with speed. Unlike other cars, it takes a good amount of seat time to truly appreciate the NSX's handling and potential once you are at 8/10 and inching ...

It took me 7 years of being relatively competitive by improving the driver behind the wheel to "finally" transition to RA1s to keep with the progressing crowd, but after that the downhill to go faster crack pipe addiction was much faster but I believe I have finally reached that razor edge of maximizing the balancing act of street/track; as the locals know, I will not cross over ... :biggrin::wink:

(b) Given Dave's portfolio, I would not recommend that he pushes 140 just because he can Heck, after 10 years of doing this, hitting 125 at the kink (turn 1 at Laguna) or before a braking zone still takes my full attention and focus and I track at least 10 times a year. 140 in a non-track only car (without beefed up brakes suspension and tires) is no joke and I don't care how good of a driver one is.

(c) Keep a sage instructor with him as long as he can. The GGC-BMW group here in NorCal used to insist on having an instructor for about 10 track sessions even if they classified a student as low intermediate - which was after at least 5-10 track events as novice - depending on the student. This notion of getting bragging rights of being signed off to run solo is really overstated and is a disservice to proper instructional and safe HPDE programs. Many instructors sign off students too soon because it frees them the rest of the afternoon .......

Even now, when I or one of the other NSX instructors are not running together, we tend to hop as a passenger because one always learns something new from a pair of eyes - even if the additional 170-225 lbs makes us slower :tongue:

So Dave, here is the gist of it :wink: Personally, I wish I had done the harness bar earlier as that really helped me being planted instead of trying to brace myself with my knees as I kept sliding in the leather seat. I would think the same would apply to you; a harness bar like the one that Comptech, Dali or SOS offers would help you to improve your driving curve significantly at the "minor" risk of having a roll over - and this roll issue has been amply debated in another thread. And a harness bar is NOT a roll cage irrespective of what marketing pitch is offered.

But again, a harness bar is not critical if you are driving within your means - both cognitive (as in risk assessment) and budgetary concerns.

HTH. YMWV.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Almost all the veterans who started tracking their NSXs some 10-12 years ago (a few started even earlier), started with the very basics - mostly OEM set up and no harness bar. As they progressed they added mods to improve the handling, then tires, then brakes etc. .... and pretty much the last transition seems to be the safety related issues like portable extinguisher, harness bar, 5/6 point belts (and there has been extensive posts on the latter), Hans - just starting to catch on, Nomex suite, etc.

Is your chance of your vehicle not popping a fuel line and catching on fire some-how better your first track day then one ten years from now? Is your chance of getting into a serious accident some-how deferred until you get bigger brakes/faster tires and go that two extra seconds faster? Is there some real reason why a harness bar is good enough for a roll-over today but not tomorrow? Why a window net or arm restraint is not needed until some distant time in the future? No.

There is no good excuse I've ever heard on high-end NSX, F-Car, and P-car forums to not have all the proper safety gear before you decide to hit a race track, period.

Does this mean the rest of us "regular" weekend boy trackers haven't spend some money on safety gear? Sure we have but within our risk management criteria and budget, and a pretty good assessment of what type of risks we are willing to take or avoid at the track and which organizations we choose to do HDPE (note I did not refer to racing or timed laps).

I've helped run tech inspection lines at these events for years, and I've seen first hand what individual "risk management criteria and budget" looks like at HPDE's. It looks like $15,000 on turbos and it will be all you can do to get them to spend $300 on a fire bottle because they would rather get-in on the carbon fiber dash trim group buy. Six figures for a 911 and they want to know if they can use their bike helmet. Scary.

I am in the camp that doesn't think it should ever be left to HPDE drivers to do their own safety engineering & regulation, for the simple reason that I don't think it works. I think the minimum standards are already too lax. I know from racing what results are to be had by having some *minimal* technical safety standards and enforcement, and likewise I know from several years of open tracking what the results from a free-for-all look like at many club days with newer drivers.

Is this principle enough to meet someone else's standards or criteria of what safety ought to be? I think the answer is it really doesn't matter because the variables and the risk aversive varies among individuals.

I think it does matter. Unfortunately the risks one person takes translates to others on course (drivers, passengers, instructors, corner workers, emergency responders, etc...).

the additional money Dave spends on safety gear is not going to do much to help him at this stage of his driving if he doesn't first IMHO:

They call them accidents for a reason. They can be mitigated, not eliminated. When they do, all that matters is if you are prepared for them or not.

 

[TURBO2GO]

This is a lot to think about. When I first bought the NSX, it was because I wanted a car that had an open top, and was a stick. I was bored out of my brains in my MB. Now, my view on everything has changed. I drive down the highway and see someone in a really fast car, and ask myself... what is the point? How many off ramps can you take at triple the posted limit? How far can you accelerate on the highway before you are going to hit traffic, endanger others and get yourself pulled over? What was the point of my buying a CTSC *before* I had ever received my car? It was because just like most other people, I was an armchair racer. Thinking the car is underpowered. Underpowered for what should have been the question. To each their own, I am just stating my personal opinions here. You buy a cool fast car either to pose, or for a 10 second rush on the streets which is a bad place for it anyway.

After I got to the track it was like someone just opened my eyes. I think I have done some dumb things in the past, but I didn't know any better. Now I am able to appreciate the NSX. And honestly if I was NA, I'd still be happy. and probably safer. Like I said, I am coasting the latter third of most straights because I am uncomfotable with the speeds the car can build.

My goal is to learn something here. To be a better, more skilled driver. And to be safe doing it. I just watched that video on the forum of that Elise that did a 180 on the track and was hit head-on by another car at speed. That could have been a lot worse. I've done 8 track days and I've seen a mini flip and roll right in front of me, and a new Vette hit a concrete wall with full airbag deployment. This is in novice class HPDE mind you.... so you can see why I would have a safety concern.

There are a lot of decisions to be made here, and again this is a good thread thanks to good knowledgable contributors. You guys are invaluable, really. This forum was a factor in my not wanting to sell my NSX and go to a GTR.

Tomorrow I am off to Monticello. 2 more HPDE days there with the Ferrari club on that 4.1 mile track, and I have 3 more days localy with BMW-cca. After that I am calling it quits for this year and going to decide what to do next. I need a lot more track time and I need to figure out the best way to do that.

 

[TURBO2GO]

John I agree with you. Safety is just too overlooked. The HPDE and Auto-X I did with the local BMW club was a joke. My cousin showed in an M helmet and no one said anything. After 3 runs I get in his car and he still had his radar detector on the windsheild. Plugged in. With instructor at his side for at least 15 laps. An overly enthusiastic vette driver that was spinning his car out way too much in auto-X tried to pass too early going into the straight, lost it and slammed into the wall. Halfway into my session I was informed we must flag. How? they round up all the guys like cattle, throw them in the back of a pickup truck, and take them around the track. We had group 4 complete novice class, flagging. I am at the end of a hairpin turn, behind a few tires, on the grass, flagging for cars flying past me. 70 MPH and about 15 feet away. In the wet. I am asking myself... when did I sign up for this shit? It was one of the most unprofessional events I had been to. These are the guys handling my safety.

 

[NSXAMG996TT]

 

[Hrant]

John, we agree to disagree. It is not all black and white as you purport it to be.

Frankly, most of your comments are really outside the scope of what Dave is looking for occasional and safe HDPE for a 70/30 car. Your concerns are perfectly fine for someone who races, and I do follow and read your posts in that context. But in my opinion, you are unnecessarily scaring Dave and perhaps many others with scenarios of events that yes they "may" happen based on statiscal probaility, but often, the best advice is the one that tailors or limits the information to meet the OP's best needs/interest; this is an art that is become less and less prevelant in these forums. And what suprised me is in your posts on this thread is that you, who has always advocated "context" seem to have put that aside in your responses here. I mean what is the context for starting to mention window net, arm restraints for Dave's needs ......

As I noted, one has to be a bit realistic and not totally fatalistic. And it all depends on what type of programs one chooses to run vs. what type of risks one is willing to take in those programs. A well run HPDE with solid instructors will minimize this. Perhaps that minimization is not enough for you, but it surely is for the hoards that we see here in NorCal. And yes, I have, in more than one occasion, refused to instruct in a car that I didn't think it was safe to sit in either because of the mechanical condition upon my tech inspection, or because I couldn't fit with the roll cage that they had.

And Dave, that Mini that flipped or the Corvette that hit the barrier ...... that is precisely the risk inherent in a track event. If it made you to think twice and ask these questions, then it was indeed a good thing. But give us the details as to why those two incidents happened in a novice run and that might help a bit. I too have seen a M3 flip over, another hit the k-wall, and two Evos flip over (one was the student's girlfriend who he borrowed .....). And you know what, all were novices who did not heed the morning briefing that for the first session out, they really need to take it easy as the track is not warm, the tires are not warm, etc., ..... they let their adrenaline take over and the incidents happened on the first or second lap. There is no preventative cure or fix for stupidity irrespective of how many safety features you pile on.

As I said, Your Mileage Will Vary ...... I think you have heard pretty much all that can be said on this. Enjoy your NSX-T.

Edit: I just read Dave's post #29. How that event was organized and run says it all. Dave, you really need to pick a much more decent HPDE program.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

This is a lot to think about. When I first bought the NSX, it was because I wanted a car that had an open top, and was a stick. I was bored out of my brains in my MB. Now, my view on everything has changed. I drive down the highway and see someone in a really fast car, and ask myself... what is the point? How many off ramps can you take at triple the posted limit? How far can you accelerate on the highway before you are going to hit traffic, endanger others and get yourself pulled over? What was the point of my buying a CTSC *before* I had ever received my car? It was because just like most other people, I was an armchair racer. Thinking the car is underpowered. Underpowered for what should have been the question. To each their own, I am just stating my personal opinions here. You buy a cool fast car either to pose, or for a 10 second rush on the streets which is a bad place for it anyway.

After I got to the track it was like someone just opened my eyes.

It's significant progress! You should be proud! You've made very mature comments lately. Now looking back, you can realize that 99.99% of the car enthusiasts you have ever talked to have absolutely no idea what-so-ever what you are talking about when it comes to performance. They are going to be like but I read in car & driver/modified mag... blah blah blah... and will argue until they are blue in the face....

Even my new crew chief, Kyle whom is 19 yrs old gets it. He made the comment to me the other day that even after having tracked a Mazda Miata once everything else on the street was just completely irrelevant. Yet, you can talk to anyone else without that driver calibration and they just don't get it......

John I agree with you. Safety is just too overlooked. The HPDE and Auto-X I did with the local BMW club was a joke.

There are a lot of reasons to all this, but the thing to know is that for the most part, the organizers pretty much just rent the track and some corner workers. With many clubs a courtesy brake light / helmet check, and making sure you have a pulse is all you need to get your car on the pavement. Others like my local PCA chapter may go the extra mile and require signed annual inspections by designated people to track with them and bring good people. Sure, it varies and some organizers do a better job than others I guess. However, no matter what the situation, my opinion is that it is your car/life in your hands so you need to eventually develop yourself to be the professional and take charge of your own safety out there first. Particularly if you are going to be regularly open lapping solo, then now might be a good time to think about your safety.

Clearly as this thread demonstrates, the HPDE culture is pretty lax and a lot of people get by with very little. Many feel invincible and think they can mitigate the need to spend a few grand year after year by doing X, Y, Z. They will show up with a six figure sports can but can't seem to get off 5 grand for safety gear and will rationalize it line item by line item in all sorts of creative ways. It's just ridiculous if you put it all into perspective. What are you really saving here?

Personally, I'd rather be seen as the power-ranger with all the latest safety gear posting 5 minute lap-times any-day of the week than being the manly I can-beat-all-the-odds ignorant type and end up in a hospital. I bet if you asked Randy Pobst he would tell you that there is nothing unsexy or less manly about being safe no matter what your experience or usage level.

John, we agree to disagree. It is not all black and white as you purport it to be. Frankly, most of your comments are really outside the scope of what Dave is looking for occasional and safe HDPE for a 70/30 car.

Don't know what to say, other than we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think it matters if the car is 99/1, or if you are pushing 5/10ths, or what the odds are. It really only has to happen once and the consequences can be horrific. There have certainly been HPDE's where people have gotten hurt on their very first day. There have been incidents with instructors in the car. Their have been mechanical failures like wheels coming off or toe links breaking. Will you probably be ok? Sure... but who here is going to be doing the hand holding for Dave's family if shit goes south?

But in my opinion, you are unnecessarily scaring Dave and perhaps many others with scenarios of events that yes they "may" happen based on statical probability, but often, the best advice is the one that tailors or limits the information to meet the OP's best needs/interest; this is an art that is become less and less prevalent in these forums. And what surprised me is in your posts on this thread is that you, who has always advocated "context" seem to have put that aside in your responses here. I mean what is the context for starting to mention window net, arm restraints for Dave's needs ......

I am not trying to scare anyone, I am simply trying to encourage people to spend the money it takes to do things right, and get proper gear if they want to go fast on a race track. Sooner rather than later. The inescapable fact is that motor sports comes with real risks, and no matter how extensive your mitigations it's not a perfect system by any means.

Really, what is the primary counter-argument as to why having adequate roll-over protection is not needed in a targa top sports car? Even CART had one in their NSX pace car.

As far as context, consider Dr Frank Nitto. Now, he actually had all the good safety gear in his time-trial NSX, but as I recall the event organizers at the HPDE requested that he keep his window net down as it gave the "appearance of racing". I know I've had that happen.

Unfortunately, there was an incident that day caused by another Ferrari driver, and the result was the he had an off and flipped his NSX at an HPDE in my region at Pacific Raceways. During the roll-over, he stuck his hand out the drivers side, and it de-gloved his hand. As I understand it he will never practice surgery again.

He made the comment that if it had not been for the cage he would be dead. If just that one day he had taken the 10 seconds to put it up anyway and not listen to the organizer, his life would probably be very different today.

 

[docjohn]

If only i could type with more than 2 fingers,Hrant and I would pummel you John, like wonder twins unite in the form of ................insert some large safety device....

 

[Liquid]

What was the point of my buying a CTSC *before* I had ever received my car?

Yeah but you did get a sweet deal on that groupbuy. :biggrin:

Don't know what to say, other than we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think it matters if the car is 99/1, or if you are pushing 5/10ths, or what the odds are. It really only has to happen once and the consequences can be horrific. There have certainly been HPDE's where people have gotten hurt on their very first day. There have been incidents with instructors in the car. Their have been mechanical failures like wheels coming off or toe links breaking. Will you probably be ok? Sure... but who here is going to be doing the hand holding for Dave's family if shit goes south?

You and Hrant are talking about two separate components of risk that together equal the total risk: odds of an incident and severity of outcome if there is an incident. You can reduce your risk of having an incident by having the car tech inspected, running with a responsible, mature group, pushing the car less close to the limit. You reduce your severity primarily with safety gear. You cannot totally eliminate risk, either on the track or driving to the mall for that matter.

I am absolutely not advocating for an attitude of "if I can't eliminate it, then I don't need to do anything". I think minimum HPDE safety standards should be in place, and generally strengthened, but beyond that each individual must determine their risk tolerance and how best to mitigate that risk. We don't require roll cages or 6 point belts in street cars, although it would undoubtedly reduce severity of an accident when one occurs. It seems crazy to say when you're talking about matters of health and livelihood, but every day we make choices and tradeoffs when it comes to how much risk we are willing to take and what we are willing to do to reduce that risk.

 

[docjohn]

So John since you are now at the safety mountain top looking down,but had to ascend just like the rest of us,what is your specific safety recomendations for all of the open trackers who still use thier street cars.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Hrant, you and John don't need to agree as far as I am concerned, the info you guys provide is what is valuable and then any reader can do what they want with that info. I happen to be a higher than average safety-concious person as my family is a bunch of doctors and they have shown me plenty of X-rays and pictures of car accidents, many of racing. My poor sister was in tears one day after a guy that looked like me came in with every bone in his body broken from some car racing event. "Please stop" she told me. I never want to be taken to her hospital in an ambulance.

In my short stint in HPDE's, I have seen a minimum of one incident per event I have been to, even if there were no "accidents". Plenty of people running off, hitting cones, just missing barriers. And most of this shit is in the novice class. I am so happy to not be in that group now. The vette driver said "The other guy didn't slow to let me pass so I had to really nail it". He is probably both right and stupid for doing so. Guys pass without being waved, cars don't slow, and then there is always the one clown.... its those guys I worry about. If it was a group of people that were calmer and cool-headed like myself and liquid, I'd definitely feel more safe.

If I may steer this thread back a little, can a good rollbar be even fabricated for this car that would protect in a rollover but not be a full cage? I just think I want a harness. It would help me feel the car more and not slip and slide on the fine armorall'ed leather. If it is possible to get a true rollbar rather than a harness bar, I prefer to do so. Matt337 suggested a CG lock to me. I feel too loosey goosey now with the leather seats that really don't have proper support for track use. I feel a lot better in cars with a harness. It just feels better going around a track in a harness. you are one with the car.

 

[NSXAMG996TT]

Your chances of getting the Swine Flu is much higher than a rollover at the track. I wonder how many will actually go out and get the vaccination. But everyone knows that shit happens.

Every DE day starts out with a mandatory driver's meeting going over all the safety issues of the track. Unless you have a race-prepped car, no one has a full cage (not even the doctors there on their day off to have fun). You are reminded to be safe, courteous, and overall have a blast.

I'm going back to the track this Friday, so I didn't bother to read all the doom-n-gloom prophecies above. (My keyboard skills end here.)

 

[Hrant]

I think with the last few e-mails we have made good progress in the overall discussion, and I agree with Liquid, John and I are talking about the spectrum of safety measures.

Dave, short of a roll cage, there is nothing that will secure you against the collapse of the frame in an NSX-T in the picture in my post #8. That is one of the fundamental risks in tracking in an NSX-T. The Comptech roll cage works better in a coupe.

Having said this, and depending on your torso height, a harness bar with the seat cushion taken out will lower your seating position and thus lower your height from the roof line. Besides, as you noted, it will also help you enjoy driving more without slipping in your armoralled leahter and having all those knee bruises! The CG lock can be done by also twisting the seat belt but I would recommend the harness bar.

Edit: I am surprised Ted hasn't chimed in yet. He was one of the first to start the R&D re safety issues with the NSX for weekend boy racers ...... yo Shoe String Racing, time to spice this up a bit more :biggrin:

 

[TURBO2GO]

Do we know for a fact that the T with the targe locked in place is really that much weaker than a coupe? Having looked at the structure of the roof in a coupe, it doesn't look that strong to me. And from what I understand the A pillars in the T are stronger. Are we just guessing about the integrity of the T or is this a known fact?

 

[nsxnut]

Besides the roll bar there was another comment about fire.

I have a Halon fire system in my car. I have never had to use it.
I also have a 5lb portable halon extinguisher. I have use it twice!

Fire extinguisher is relatively cheep safety gear but is absolutely priceless when needed.

When I first started I bought inexpensive shoes, gloves, helmet etc...
I use this shit all the time. I have since replaced all of these with new and more expensive gear.

A nice light helmet is so much better than a cheep heavy one.
My newer Sparco shoes are so much more comfortable than the old racequip. They cost 2x but really are better...

I actually still use the old helmet when I instruct but when I drive I put on the lighter new helmet.
I also always use a neck ring. I know this is not as good as a Hans device but student's car's rarely have harnesses.
I have two of these... the cheepo one and a good Sparco one that I ware all the time.

My point is buy the gear. If you are going to use it buy good stuff.

For what it's worth. I have bought several 6-8 Halon extinguishers off of Ebay.
I have them in my car's, trailer, workshop, house.
I also have dry chemical in the house. Not a good idea for the car.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

So John since you are now at the safety mountain top looking down,but had to ascend just like the rest of us,what is your specific safety recommendations for all of the open trackers who still use their street cars.

Sure. Stop making bets you can't afford to cash. Make good choices whenever and whereever you can.

I used to regularly track a stock Honda S2000 convertible for several years, and of course area clubs would cut me loose open lapping for the day as it technically met the broomstick rule. In hindsight, pushing that around was really, really dumb. Who cares what the rules say? I was going more than fast enough where I could have easily gotten hurt out there. I eventually realized it, sold it, and got a safe ride with the gear I actually needed to go fast. I should have done it years earlier.

I believe that some people don't want to hear gloom & doom or all the stories of cars being lost because they would rather ignore it and think it could never happen to them. It was the other stupid guy that hit the oil slick and put his Porsche into the wall last weekend, right? I think this is the wrong approach.

Really when it comes down to it some just want to do whatever they want to do. They want to hear that they can go fast on a race track and not need all that crap because their contingency planning is some-how superior to the next guys. That the odds are some how conquerable.

Safety is one of those areas where you plan for the worst and hope for the best. Do they say fires are rare so there is no need to install a sprinkler system? NO. But clearly we all know that there are a lot of people on this planet that pretty much have to see a sky scraper burn down before they do something about it.

I was talking to one of the Panoz drivers in my region and asked him what got him into his GTS, and he said it was the two week hospital stay after he totaled his Ferrari 360 at PIR at triple digit speeds. He said he would never drive a stock street car like that ever again. That was just really stupid, so he finally went ahead and bought a safe ride that was engineered for the race track. Sounds pretty smart to me.

 

[docjohn]

Again John I clearly understand your logic and agree in principle,but I'm asking for your specific recomendation,,ie you would suggest not driving open solo format hpde in anything but a dedicated race car with all safety measures?

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Again John I clearly understand your logic and agree in principle,but I'm asking for your specific recommendation,,ie you would suggest not driving open solo format hpde in anything but a dedicated race car with all safety measures?

Oh, I see. No, I don't know that I would necessarily go that far (I am not advocating that everyone needs to run out today and buy a Panoz GTS or radical SR5 to be safe open lapping at track days) but maybe top-gear style wouldn't hurt. Just the essentials in an otherwise stock production car.

I don't always get a choice, but honestly I really don't much enjoy riding along in Supercharged Z4 or Corvette C5 with a 3pt belt. With out some minimal gear in what are very quick cars; it can be a little scary sometimes. Once you have it, you'll feel 'naked' without the gear.

Here is what my *minimal* list might come to look like:

• A properly mounted, approved race seat (X2 for passengers)
• 5/6/7 pt harness in good condition, with current SFI tags (X2 for passengers), and proper hardware (eye bolts, plates, etc...)
• A competition style roll bar that would pass a safety inspection by a regional tech official.
• A SA2005 or later helmet (preferably full face)
• Nomex or Carbon X driving shoes, gloves, balaclava, and at least a single layer driving suite.
• At least a 5 lb hand-held extinguisher

Are there other things that aren't obligatory in John's world view but would probably be a good idea? Sure!!!

• Head & Neck Restraint (fast becoming mandatory anyway)
• Master cut-out switch (in cock-pit and corner worker accessible)
• Fire system (in cock-pit and corner worker accessible)
• Nomex Underware, socks, etc...
• Arm restraints, window net, etc.. so you don't put a hand out.
• Driver / Head net.
• Removing the steering wheel lock
• Disabling\Removing the SRS system
• Maybe extending on the primary hoop structure and getting some down-tubes and door bars.

Here's the big thing. I use the word proper a lot. What does that mean? Quality gear doesn't mean jack if it isn't installed right. If it is your first year, and you are the DIY type, then I think the most important thing is once you put together your setup, take the initiative, bring your car and all your gear out, and have someone sign-off on it. Dave is in California, so maybe go have a Driving Ambition or TRG do an annual safety inspection on your setup.

Sometimes even the stupid things like how the harnesses are wrapped, or the angle of the harness in relation to the height of the driver, head clearance, or specific details on the car construction, can make all the difference in the world between a safe and a not-so-safe setup.

Last, recognize that piecing parts together is not ideal. A safety setup needs to work as a COMPLETE SYSTEM in order to be thoroughly effective at protecting the driver in a serious accident.

 

[docjohn]

Thankyou:smile: I am currently classified as minimal:redface:

 

[swerve2007]

i concur, the right gear saved my life several times.

 

[Hrant]

Here is what my *minimal* list might come to look like:

• An properly mounted, approved race seat (X2 for passengers)
• 5/6/7 pt harness in good condition, with current SFI tags (X2 for passengers), and proper hardware (eye bolts, plates, etc...)
• A race style roll bar that offers some *minimal* roll-over protection
• An SA2005 or later helmet (preferably full face)
• Nomex or Carbon X driving shoes, gloves, balaclava, and at least a single layer driving suite.
• At least a 5lb hand-held extinguisher

John, this is a good list as a starter but here are my comments.

1) Does this mean OEM seats are not acceptable to you even if the seat cushion is taken out - since this doesn't qualify as an "approved race seat".
2) Agree with 6 point ..... ample discussion on previous posts led by Ted. But not sure re your comments of bolts/mounting plates. The Comptech harness bar was designed for this purpose and I did talk to Simpson who said the design and location of the mounts are acceptable.
3) The only race style roll bar that meets the pics in your link is the Comptech one which had been discontinued. And as I posted this does nothing for the A frame (windshield).
4) Surprised with the single layer Nomex suit if you are pushing the envelope with safety as that offers no more than what 5 seconds of fire protection?! Two layers of thick cotton may do the same trick!
5) Agree with the 5lbs fire extinguisher.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

1) Does this mean OEM seats are not acceptable to you even if the seat cushion is taken out - since this doesn't qualify as an "approved race seat".

Absolutely. Schroth and many of the race harness manufacturers make it clear that you should never use 5/6/7pt harness using stock seats. Race harnesses are only intended to be used with seat shells which are designed for them. If you want to use stock seats then you should just use your inertia belts.

Most all track groups, including PCA and BMW clubs will not let you run 4 or 5/6/7 pt harnesses with stock seats anyway.

2) Agree with 6 point ..... ample discussion on previous posts led by Ted. But not sure re your comments of bolts/mounting plates. The Comptech harness bar was designed for this purpose and I did talk to Simpson who said the design and location of the mounts are acceptable.

The CT harness bar uses the rear seat rail mounting points to secure the bottom as I recall. Normally, these would be used to secure the lap belt. Eye bolts and reinforced backing plates are preferential at all mounting points, and again recommended by racing harness manufacturers due to the high loads. As to if a specific harness installation is acceptable in tandum with some after-market bar... without knowing the details I would defer that to your tech inspector.

3) The only race style roll bar that meets the pics in your link is the Comptech one which had been discontinued. And as I posted this does nothing for the A frame (windshield).

Yes, the CT roll-bar has been discontinued. I recognize that for the NSX their are no fantastic bolt-in solutions that are really worth a damn. However, any competent motor-sports race shop (DA, TRG, MiataCage, Fordahl, etc...) can custom fabricate a main hoop structure that is comparably adequate, using an acceptable standard such as the 2009 SCCA GCR section 9.4 as a reference.

If you want go beyond the minimum and do a front hoop / down-tubes then you'll be into a 6 pt. roll cage.

4) Surprised with the single layer Nomex suit if you are pushing the envelope with safety as that offers no more than what 5 seconds of fire protection?! Two layers of thick cotton may do the same trick!

Even many cheap entry level single layer suites today are SFI 3.2A/5 and have TPP's near 30. You can spend $250 on a cheap G-Force or $1250 on a Sparco X-Lite. Get a nomex on close-out or get the more expensive carbon-x.

Once again, my bare bones minimum would be to just have one. IMHO either is a hell of a lot better than shorts/jeans and a cotton T-Shirt; and even 5 seconds is still 5 seconds more than you have now!! Just remember, if you go really cheap then hopefully with a lot of practice, you can get out of the car in 5 seconds! :smile:

5) Agree with the 5lbs fire extinguisher.

Once again, a small hand-held will meet most club requirements. For small fires. If nothing else, at least I know you have something in your paddock space. If you want to go above and beyond a 6 nozzle fire system is certainly encouraged.

 

[R13]

Preface: I am a complete track amateur, but do have some limited 1st-hand safety experience .

As someone who already tracks an MR2 and plans to track an NSX soon-ish, this thread has been a very good read. Thanks to those who have contributed to such an important discussion.

My feeble attempts at some productive content:

-Stock, reclinable seats can collapse in severe impact (somewhat by design with respect to rear-impacts). A "proper" fixed-back racing seat will not collapse. A good seat & harness can (properly installed), in theory, keep you in position to be better protected by a single roll hoop (those similar to the autopower designs John@Microsoft linked to).

-Allow me to emphasize HALON/HALOTRON extinguisher. Dry chemical (corrosive properties not withstanding) must be sprayed directly at a fire. This means you must have line-of-sight...which is not always possible with a fairly well concealed engine compartment such as the one in the NSX. My dad used to track a Ferrari 308 GT4. We (I was a passenger) had a plug in a carb come loose and start a fuel fire in the engine bay. Corner station only had dry chemical, and the fire had already melted the engine bonnet release cable by the time we stopped. Fortunately we had a halon bottle in the car. We put the fire out by spraying the halon under the car towards the engine compartment. Since it is a gas it was able to rise & effectively starve the fire of oxygen long enough to put it out. This allowed us (nomex gloves FTW) to pry the lid open and get to it with the dry chemical & water bottles to make sure it didn't re-start.

In short, the halon bottles are not cheap (~$100+ for what I found), but worth every penny if you have to use it. Sticking a wal-mart kitchen extinguisher in your glove box just won't cut it.

 

[TURBO2GO]

However, any competent motor-sports race shop (DA, TRG, MiataCage, Fordahl, etc...) can custom fabricate a main hoop structure that is comparably adequate, using an acceptable standard such as the 2009 SCCA GCR section 9.4 as a reference.

John I was going to call you on this but may as well let everyone know. Can you tell me what something like this looks like? Is it something that fits behind the seats? What about Hrants concern over the A-pillar strength?

Hrant, didn't the factory design the targa to be able to survive some sort of minor rollover? I can't imagine it is that weak.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

John I was going to call you on this but may as well let everyone know. Can you tell me what something like this looks like? Is it something that fits behind the seats?

I don't have any pictures on my laptop today.

Here is a picture of the old CT roll bar design several members spoke of. It was a 4pt bolt-in roll bar when the removable front bars were in place (no need to remove the rear glass partition). Somethings I didn't like, but it was a lot more in the ballpark. Here is a typical weld-in more permanent design from a 4 seater application that could be used as a reference image if you don't know what a 4pt competition race roll bar looks like.

Yes, the primary roll-hoop structure is behind the seats in all cases and still very much street-able.

What about Hrants concern over the A-pillar strength? Hrant, didn't the factory design the targa to be able to survive some sort of minor rollover? I can't imagine it is that weak.

The B-Pillar structure is more robust on the targa, but it is still aluminum and is more than capable of collapsing like any roof during a roll-over.

Once again, the ask/context here was for the minimum. As I see safety components as only working properly when you have a COMPLETE SYSTEM.... I basically recommended a 4pt roll hoop that would meet current 09' GCR standards and would pass an inspection by a regional tech official. I would choose to think of it this way: This system will afford you reasonable coverage for the 1/1000 or 1/10000 incident but maybe not the 1/100000 incident. Good for little roll-overs. :smile:

Here is the bottom line. You have a late model car, that I am sure you don't want to gut or rip-up installing a 6/8pt roll cage. Thus, inevitably this is probably going to become a compromise on some level. My guess is that after discussing your objectives, most of the shops will get likely get you into a design some-what similar to the old CT roll bar.

A big mitigating factor here is that if you are still primarily street driving your car doing an HPDE once a month (and I presume still using the 3pt inertia belts). Having a 6 pt touring cage in your road car is not preferable all things considered. The leading cause of fatalities in roll-overs is head contact with the upper door frame... so unless you want to start wearing a helmet and sipping your coffee through a straw on the way to work in the morning- having a front hoop with down-tubes might not be for you.

Of course Dave.... on second thought.... didn't you recently infer you were thinking about maybe starting to wear your helmet on the street anyway?

This could be a good forcing function.......... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: