Mugen rollbar
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+1 -> There is a difference between a harness bar vs. roll bar vs. roll cage.
I realize that. Mugen calls this a ROLL BAR. Which means it *should* have protection in a rollover. I was asking because Mugen is a good company and I didn't think they could call it a rollbar without some sort of testing/liability. It looks hefty (I don't know if you guys can see the pic, I cannot see it anymore), but I am not about to trust my head/life with some cheesy part. I had been thinking of having a shop fabricate something for me after John@microsoft's advice but saw this and wondered if anyone knew if it was indeed a real part or one just designed for ricing around the streets.
Maybe Scorp can chime in on why he chose the Mugen bar. It appears his car is built for spirited drives through SoCal. Anyways, unless you plan on turning your car into a dedicated track machine, the rollcage is the best option for the NSX (for rollover protection).
You can't weld to Aluminum so on the nsx full cages are mostly bolted with thickend or hardened additional material.Comptech used to sell a "roll' bar for the nsx that was thicker and the bar was larger than that mugen piece.I tried to find old pics of one in place but they are gone.Anyway my original feelings on the matter still stand.If you want or need real crash/rollover protection for the nsx you will need a fabrication expert to make you a cage.Search old threads on the topic.
Concur with the above comments. But more importantly, if you have a concern it should be more because you have a targa. The weakest point for a targa in a roll over is where your head will be when the windshield frame collapses. And nothing short of a full roll cage will protect you unless:
(a) Your torso is relatively short but your legs are long so you are securely under the back frame
(b) You assess the probability of a roll over vs. hitting a wall; and most who have done this determination unscientifically, think the roll over probability is less on a HPDE.
YMMV.
(a) Your torso is relatively short but your legs are long so you are securely under the back frame
(b) You assess the probability of a roll over vs. hitting a wall; and most who have done this determination unscientifically, think the roll over probability is less on a HPDE.
YMMV.
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I have to respectfully disagree with the generalization that all bolt in rollbars are useless in a rollover.
I want to replace my POS steering wheel, hence no airbag. But when I talked to John@microsoft; whose opinion I respect, he said that the harness bar isn't really going to do a lot, and to just get a properly fabricated rollbar. Now you guys are saying a rollbar is not good alone, you really need a cage. If I go to a full cage, this car is becoming less and less streetable and more and more track only. I am not keen on cutting up my interior. My goal for the car is weekend driver, and HPDE car. I want to be good enough HPDE to go solo, to be a better driver, to be able to track a few times a year just to refresh myself and keep my skills.... I mean... MAD SKILLZ... sharp. I don't think I will be a track junkie with this car. I have too much money in it.
I'm stuck in this position where if I make one move with the steering wheel then I am into a whole other game with a full cage.
I'm stuck in this position where if I make one move with the steering wheel then I am into a whole other game with a full cage.
you don't need a cage for a fun/hpde car, and i *guarantee* you don't want a full cage in a street car. but you will be safer on track in a car with a proper cage, seats, and harnesses (and of course a helmet). if you're only going to track it 2-3 times a year leave it as is and have fun. any more than that and a track car with real safety equipment should at least be a consideration. don't hack up the nsx, just buy something with all the right stuff already done.
Based on your other similar threads, and specifically this one:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125512
you are really over analyzing this way beyond your needs to the point that you may no longer enjoy the fun quotient with such worries in your NSX at a HPDE and would be better with dedicated track car such as a spec Miata or an older M3. And some of the recommendations you are receiving are really
........... let's say I am scratching my head if they are really addressing your situation or 
I will repeat my recommendation in post #41 in the above thread.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125512
you are really over analyzing this way beyond your needs to the point that you may no longer enjoy the fun quotient with such worries in your NSX at a HPDE and would be better with dedicated track car such as a spec Miata or an older M3. And some of the recommendations you are receiving are really
........... let's say I am scratching my head if they are really addressing your situation or I will repeat my recommendation in post #41 in the above thread.
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Since when has that been true? Are you familiar with a MIG Welder??
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/compactmig.asp?print=y
Bolt-on is certainly not the safest option. If we're not worried about safety (which is the purpose of a rollbar/cage, etc) then why even have one to begin with? The last thing I want is a bolt to come loose or break (which would happen) and another solid object in the cabin that could cause severe injury.
For reference:
SCCA Guidelines:
http://dsr.racer.net/docs/rules/2002/sect_18_roll_cage_and_chassis_2002_gcr.pdf
Every track car nsx that I have read about on prime has the cage bolted in.The cage itself may have welds.If you want more specifics PM Shad at driving ambitions he has done some nice scca certified cages recently.
Doc & Hrant are right- In other words, you must learn to walk before you can run:smile: I'm a terrible listener BTW.
Doc, Hrant, I know you guys think I'm getting ahead of myself, but I told you how these things go. Steering wheel loses airbag. That needs a harness. Harness needs attachment points. Harness bar is weak, now rollbar is no good. Next thing you know I am welding in an FIA cage because I wanted to get a different steering wheel. LOL...
Hrant, that tire thread turned out to be super informative so I like bringing up track issues. I know some of you experienced trackers may think you are wasting time but for newbs like me it's good. I mean that tire thread was one great thread, full of info. I know more than me read these. I just want some sort of half-cage something that will hold my harness, provide some small amount of safety and stiffen the chassis more which is never a bad thing. I talked to Ross at STMPO but he was a bit busy with other things. Anyway, I guess I will keep the shitty steering wheel as there are no good options and keep at my HPDE classes for now. I am going to have to represent the NSX community as I am doing my next one in 2 days at Monticello with the Ferrari club.
Hrant, that tire thread turned out to be super informative so I like bringing up track issues. I know some of you experienced trackers may think you are wasting time but for newbs like me it's good. I mean that tire thread was one great thread, full of info. I know more than me read these. I just want some sort of half-cage something that will hold my harness, provide some small amount of safety and stiffen the chassis more which is never a bad thing. I talked to Ross at STMPO but he was a bit busy with other things. Anyway, I guess I will keep the shitty steering wheel as there are no good options and keep at my HPDE classes for now. I am going to have to represent the NSX community as I am doing my next one in 2 days at Monticello with the Ferrari club.
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i think this may be a solution for you. i'm not sure if TC is selling this still, but if he is, it may be what you are looking for, rollover protection, as little intrusion as possible, the safety of removable nascar-like side impact members, bolt-in installation, and replacement pieces so cutting your dash and rear window is not a concern.
it will, however make streeting the vehicle much more difficult as the rear window will be replaced and engine noise will certainly get louder. either way, this may be a solution versus a full custom cage.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112597
it will, however make streeting the vehicle much more difficult as the rear window will be replaced and engine noise will certainly get louder. either way, this may be a solution versus a full custom cage.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112597
Dave we all approach life a little differently:smile: And thats ok.All Hrant and I are doing is professing what we have done,and I still do.I have been tracking the car for 12 years and all I have is a comptech harness bar,and a 5 point system.I don't run slicks just r compound.I'm fast enough to be able to play with most other street cars ect.I'm comfortable with that.:redface:I'm still na,have a front bbk, type R susp ect.There is not much else to do for a street/track car.I have learned alot from experience,and I see guys at my level stay with the street car, or buy a dedicated track car, fewer still turn thier street car into a track only car.Much of that is budget/logistics based.
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I can definitely agree that bolt-in is not necessarily the most desirable option. It was the term 'useless' that I was not agreeing on. I'd rather rollover in a car with a real bolt-in rollbar than one without. I also don't agree that a bolt is definitely going to break in a rollover. Is it a risk? Yes, but so is the risk that your driver's seat is going to rip out of its mounts or that the lug studs holding one of your wheels are going to sheer and a wheel go flying down the track. Are you saying that all those bolt-in rollbars that Autopower and other companies make are completely useless? I hope not.
When it comes to what is the best option, other factors come to play (money, availability, convenience, usage,...). I think we can agree that a cage is a safer option than a rollbar but then the car is not streetable even if you run your harness/helmet/Hans due to visibility issues. So what now? Have two cars, one for the track, one for the street? Sounds great, but it's not for everyone.
The mugen roll bar bolts to 6 hardpoints in the chassis, those in the floor for mounting the seats, and the two pillar hard points for the seatbelt SRS assembly; these are reinforced plate-backed locations, integrated into the chassis by Honda with a focus on load-bearing ability.
The roll bar itself is chromoly, it's thick and strong - it's produced oversize to stiffen the chassis, in addition to providing a degree of rollover protection and a convenient mounting location for harnesses, with the additional bonus of harness guides. In other words, a perfect solution for those desiring an increase in safety for a street car, where a full cage, with removable crash bars or otherwise, would simply be impractical.
I no longer use stock belts, I am using this harness bar along with Schroth ACM Autocontrol harnesses, and Sparco Evo3 seats - it's a great setup, providing enhanced driver support, and an increase in safety, while still being somewhat comfortable for driving on the street.
It seems the instant reaction of several members is 'you must have a full cage' - this seems strange, as I know of only a few people on this forum who have a full cage installed in their nsx, and fewer still who are not using a bolt in cage (dali or Carbing) - of the people who responded to this thread, I assume you all have full welded cages with gutted doors and crash bars?
The roll bar itself is chromoly, it's thick and strong - it's produced oversize to stiffen the chassis, in addition to providing a degree of rollover protection and a convenient mounting location for harnesses, with the additional bonus of harness guides. In other words, a perfect solution for those desiring an increase in safety for a street car, where a full cage, with removable crash bars or otherwise, would simply be impractical.
I no longer use stock belts, I am using this harness bar along with Schroth ACM Autocontrol harnesses, and Sparco Evo3 seats - it's a great setup, providing enhanced driver support, and an increase in safety, while still being somewhat comfortable for driving on the street.
It seems the instant reaction of several members is 'you must have a full cage' - this seems strange, as I know of only a few people on this forum who have a full cage installed in their nsx, and fewer still who are not using a bolt in cage (dali or Carbing) - of the people who responded to this thread, I assume you all have full welded cages with gutted doors and crash bars?
I have one of these in my nsx. It is a 5 point roll bar.
At the time a Harness bar and the CT roll bar were about the same price.
I opted for the CT roll bar. I think there are only a few of these ever made and installed.
It is bolted in but very securely. It took most of a day to install.
There are large plates that are bolted to the frame and the side bars is inset into the plates and bolted in.
As a side benefit it stiffens up the chassis.
Well, I would stop short of calling it a show circuit piece. That might be a little harsh. It isn't made out of clear PVC plastic tubing with neon lighting at least. :biggrin:
Not a great assumption. Usually the way it works is you get to do the testing and take on all the liability. I have some limited experience with these types of bolt-in boy-racer safety products from when I first started tracking my NSX, and will give you my honest take here. The design aspects that make these JDM bolt-in hoop/cage offerings (Mugen's/Carbing's/Cusco's etc...) attractive to the HPDE street/track crowd are the same things that tend to make them inferior to serving their intended purpose as a safety item. I'll break-down the lingo:
- JDM (i.e. designed for people that average 4 1/2 foot tall !!!)
- Polished (i.e. looks cool- clearly the most important design principle)
- JAF/FIA Approved (i.e. meets completely irrelevant & loosely defined safety standards)
- Easily removable (i.e. non full cockpit width/height so you don't have to remove interior panels)
- Easily reversible (i.e. good for vehicle re-sale value, another important safety quality to consider)
- Easy Home DIY (i.e. because we all know that owner turns wrench is always a great idea)
- Bolt-in/bolt-out (i.e. weld-on tabs instead of double gussets/caps or welds at each intersection as would normally be reccomended)
- No carpet cutting (i.e. uses the stock seat points on the aluminum floor pan instead of the frame rails to bear the load as a matter of convienence)
- Non-intrusive factory hoop style design (i.e. won't pass the 2" helmet rule being below most seat-backs)
- Reclineable/Power Seat Friendly (angled design allows for high shear loads on mounting hardware)
- Doesn't require cutting the dash (i.e. high degree bends in front hoop down-tubes unnecessarily compromises integrity, but protects dash pad)
- Removable door bars (i.e. which you'll never do anyway, but still need to consider the gf in high heels, etc... when contemplating any potential design)
- Don't have to remove door panels to clear the door bars (no driver clearance, low cut design, not really intended for any serious cabin intrusion)
- Improved rear visibility (i.e. No reinforcement diagonal brace as would normally be required by most any standardized body)
- Universal design (i.e. same I.D./O.D. for every vehicle regardless of weight makes manufacturing a breeze!!)
etc... etc.... and it is all fine and dandy..... but when it really comes down serving the purpose for which it was originally intended- protecting you in a serious accident on a race track... it's just not really what you need out there. Their are simply too many compromises for stupid crap. You know what they are really designed for? They are designed to sell. They have every feature an unknowing customer would ever ask for, and the problem with that approach is that owners aren't safety engineers.
So, unless you want to take the gamble that your next mod is going to be hand controls, then my opinion is that if you want to shop for roll-over safety protection then I think that's what you should do, and forgo all these peripheral concerns.
I don't know that I agree here. His talent level is irrelevant. IMHO unless he sticks to doing parade laps, then he has more than enough car to seriously injure or even kill himself out there.
In short, if he has 140K to get signed off solo driving a late model Supercharged NSX-T around at 140mph, then he should have the money to buy the proper safety gear. As the saying goes, if you can't afford to be safe, then you can't afford to race. I would apply the same standard to open-lapping. The only reason why car clubs don't is because of insurance requirements which is another discussion.
If he wants the inside scoop then have him go talk to Dr. Frank Nitto about NSX roll-over accidents at HPDE's. The fact that he is just beginning and trying to get signed off solo, is all that much more reason to have him go get the proper safety gear early on if he plans to continue running his car.
To be clear, what I recommended was to have someone that could possibly be in the position of knowing what they are doing; custom fabricate you a primary roll-hoop structure that would actually pass the scrutiny of an technical inspection by a qualified regional technical/safety official.
I can tell you from first-hand experience that none of the bolt-in JDM products I've seen for the NSX are going to pass muster. Even a lot of shops that think they know what they are doing with their custom fab jobs clearly don't. Any engineer or technical official that performs an annual inspection for you and knows what they are doing is going to take one look at it and tell you uh, no.
As soon as they tap an inspection hole and measure it up they will more than likely immediately fail it. The Mugen bar (probably uses the 40mm metric stuff so the equivalent would be 1 5/8") won't pass. For your current weight you listed on your other thread, the SCCA GCR would normally call for a 1.75" X 0.95 wall or 1.625" X .120 wall DOM. Why is that important? Well, after half a century racing in the most litigious society on earth... I think they really do know a thing or two about driver safety on track.
It seems like you've gotten out a few times and really enjoy tracking. That's great! However, from reading your recent posts, I just think you are at the point where you have some difficult decisions to make as to what direction you want to go here.
Last week it was NSX street/track tires, then this week it was trading for an R34, and today it went back to getting an NSX Roll bar. You are like a kid in a candy store, and it is obvious you are starting to become torn between being a car enthusiast (whom enjoys the cars for the cars) and a track enthusiast (whom enjoys the cars for the driving). It is a familiar road to many whom have become involved in motorsports in a significant way.
I've driven all sorts of stuff at HPDE's from Aerial Atoms to Exiges to Exotics... and used to street/track an NSX myself... and the thing you need to know here is that taken to the extreme a street/track car is a car that doesn't do particularly well on the street or on the track. It just sucks at both.
If you genuinely want to improve your mad skillz first, then the discussion is not going to be about what you want, it's going to be about what you need. It is about finding you something sustainable that you can learn in. Have you seriously looked into a Spec Miata yet? Then why not? I think instead of going down this road you should put the late model NSX away in the garage where it is warm and safe and get one of those before you get too carried away.
It's not sexy- but the seat-time in the lower hp, slower, cheaper ride will do 10X more to advance your mad driving skillz then spending another five grand and getting marked off as solo in your NSX ever will. Do a season or two tracking that, then go from there. I think your perspectives on everything will change a lot by then.
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John you have mad typing skilz:wink:.In a more complete and thorough manner you are suggesting what we are telling Dave,that he must make a decision on his track goals and plan apropriately.I made my choice,Hrant made his.You are my third example taking a beloved street car and turning it into a track only racer(which you probably still drive on the street)
You have a point which brings up a larger topic open to debate,what to bring to open track when the driver has graduated to fast. There is a wide diversity in safety measures/equipment at any open track day from stock street cars with oem belts and helmet, all the way to full cage /hans.
You have a point which brings up a larger topic open to debate,what to bring to open track when the driver has graduated to fast. There is a wide diversity in safety measures/equipment at any open track day from stock street cars with oem belts and helmet, all the way to full cage /hans.
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So what you guys are saying here, is that now all of a sudden my long posts and 6 paragraph rules are finally being appreciated. Alright!! I get it. Sure. Whew!! Wow!! Only took two and a half years there! Now we are making some real positive progress around this forum. I think we can finally all move-forward now. :biggrin:
I don't know where the inner talent comes from here. :biggrin:
Exactly. I am suggesting that accidents can happen so maybe spending some money on proper safety gear might be a good idea (i.e. more than none). Do it right the first time and be done with it- because otherwise you might feel really stupid if you are in a wheel chair for the rest of your life because you didn't want to cut your carpet and hurt your vehicle's re-sale value or some such non-sense.
I know I didn't get it all right at the start, and in hind-sight spent a crap ton on performance crap I didn't need when I should have been buying safety gear I did. Had people sell me gear of questionable safety value. Luckily I figured it all out before I had to learn the hard way.
Having some standards seems like a good place to start. My opinion is that in some cases the insurance legal verbatim and perversive litigious climate sounds like it may be at odds with what is best for organizers to make a good-faith effort toward ensuring driver safety.
Welcome to America.
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