Mr. Kerry, War Hero

[Brian2by2]

Brian earned his money by cheating others in an exposed pyramid scheme called "2By2" so can we really trust him?

Your statement is full of contradictions. Funny because the person who 'got me started' probably gets the same thing said about him: He got paid by cheating others... Well thank God he cheated me! It is what you make it.

But anyways, thats off topic, an obvious flame, and in-violation of the rules. Wanna talk about my business career? Feel free to PM me. Otherwise, focus on Bush vs. Kerry and the Republican response.

Actually, I don't see much relevance at all in that statement. My trustworthiness isn't in question here.

 

[JChoice]

My point of my "attack" on you was a parody of the logic that you are using in your Kerry critique: "He supposedly received one of his three purple hearts unfairly so he's not fit to be president."

The Republican propaganda line is that John Kerry is a flipflopper and that he turned on his Vietnam war buddies. Buying into this is one thing but it sounds like you've done so without "filtering" through the propaganda to form your own opinions.

If someone is against a war and protests for its end, that doesn't mean that they are turning their backs on the troops who are dying (possibly for no good reason).

Just my thoughts.

 

[Brian2by2]

My point of my "attack" on you was a parody of the logic that you are using in your Kerry critique: "He supposedly received one of his three purple hearts unfairly so he's not fit to be president."

The Republican propaganda line is that John Kerry is a flipflopper and that he turned on his Vietnam war buddies. Buying into this is one thing but it sounds like you've done so without "filtering" through the propaganda to form your own opinions.

If someone is against a war and protests for its end, that doesn't mean that they are turning their backs on the troops who are dying (possibly for no good reason).

Just my thoughts.

I'm still trying to figure out why you felt it necessary to make a jab at me. Completely irrelevant, even when you try and explain it.

And yes, it is turning your back on the troops when you protest TO them and DEGRADE them. Protest to those who MAKE the decisions, not those who are simply forced to carry them out.

I've done plenty of 'filtering'. I watched a majority of the DNC, I've read left-wing approaches, and I've read right-sided articles. My opinion of Kerry remains the same: scum.

 

[JChoice]

When you have a roll of leadership, such as Lt., your leadership qualities definetly do matter.
...
Bush still served...don't kid yourself, but he was college educated (or in the process) and chose the smart route by volunteering for the ANG on his own. He did fly an F-102 for 6 years...

So Bush's actions are "smart" and Kerry going to war and earning multiple medals was....?


Kerry served in a boat where there were SEVERAL soldiers around him at all times that weren't in his platoon. In fact, as mentioned, the guy he "saved" to win a Purple Heart was not only NOT in his platoon, but he wasn't even NAVY...he was Army if I read correctly. Kerry served beside Navy and Army soldiers alike.

I don't quite understand your logic here. Someone saving your life would be a pretty memorable moment. So that person counts as someone who might have a strong memory of Kerry. To me serving in the military and crossing paths with Kerry is not the same as being on the same patrol boat (or being rescued by that person) - just like me knowing you on this BB is not on the same level as your friends that know you personally.


The commercial is full of men who had little or no interaction with Kerry? Such as the medic that worked on him for one of his injuries? No contact there...I mean, he only diagnosed the cut as curable by band-aid

Assuming that you trust this person's recollection. Keep in mind too that this was ONE of his THREE purple hearts. You can't say that he really wasn't a war hero - he was. Hell, nowadays your a hero if you crash your Humvee trying to flee a battle and get captured by the enemy.


Not to say they were all in his group, but I'm sure they have a reason for speaking out against him and making accusations like they have.

There were people protesting the vte recount in Florida and their reason was that they were flown in by the Republican party to told to "stage" the protest.

Now, I'm not saying that these guys do not have legit a "reason" but I think that I would trust the opinion of those that served with him on a daily basis much more than the opinion of others that just crossed paths with him.


Then you flip-flop against those MAKING the decisions and not those who are simply being paid or being forced to act on them. Kerry, the "all great war hero" should have had more respect for his fellow comrades than to throw paint on them upon their return. Protest against the queen, not the worker ants.


He threw paint on them? That was poor judgement if that was the case. Shame on him.

Is Kerry perfect? No. No one is. What it comes down to for me is who do I feel is more likely to make pragmatic, educated, intelligent decisions. I believe that that person is Kerry.

 

[Spencer]

Well, I'm happy to be back from vacation...and amused at the activity this thread generated.

I have one (well, actually two) simple questions for the Kerry supporters:

1. If he's such a hero and has been honest (I won't even get into the substantiated quote of his about being in Cambodia on Christmas Day...guess you guys have an answer for that one, too) WHY DOESN'T HE SIMPLY SIGN THE RELEASE TO HAVE HIS RECORDS MADE PUBLIC?

2. Is the irony of all the carping about Bush's service (like for the last 4+ years) lost on you all...when this guy WON'T EVEN TRY TO RELEASE HIS RECORDS?

What a joke.

(I guess it's all "privileged information" that us little people won't understand…just like his ideas on extricating us from Iraq…only he can't tell us the details…reminds me of Nixon's "secret plan" to leave Vietnam…and Ter-E-Za's refusal to make her tax returns public. At a minimum, can't you see how creepy/guilty it makes him appear? It's starting to make him look like Dick Cheney...but with nice hair.)

 

[Spencer]

This is just my opinion, but I don't think military duty has any bearing on how qualified someone is to be president of the United States.

Well, John Kerry sure thinks it does:

1. His incessant mentioning of the purple hearts to the point of becoming the brunt of standup comedians and late night shows.

2. His vocal linkage of his 4 months in Vietnam as proof of his ability to lead our troops/country long before there was snow in New Hampshire.

3. His completely dorky "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty" start of his DNC acceptance speech.

Need I go on?

It's now an issue PRECISELY because HE made it one.

 

[Eric5273]

I think this whole campaign and election process is a joke this year. An illusion to make you think you actually have a choice. I want a candidate who is in favor of pulling the troops out of Iraq immediately, who was against the USA Patriot Act, and who is in favor of a balanced budget ammendment. Where is my choice??

For all the arguing that is going on with both sides, these 2 candidates are pretty much the same. They both support staying in Iraq and Afghanistan, they both are in favor of further increasing the already rediculous military budget (already more than 10 times as much as any other country in the world, and more than the entire world put together), they are both in favor of continuing the policies that actually cause terrorism -- American imperialism abroad, they both will continue to set their policies based on what is good for the big corporations, regardless of the effect on the masses, and they are both from the same "skull & bones" upbringing by wealthly elite families that have nothing in common with the average American. If the political spectrum from right to left was 10 feet wide, these two are about 6 inches apart.

Oh yeah......but they disagree on Gay Marriage and Abortion Rights -- issues that of course are the most important of our time and affect the majority of us on a daily basis. [sarcasm]

 

[steveny]

Yup, and for every positive quote on Snopes.com about Mr. Kerry, there are 3 bashing his brains in for being an incompetent leader, a liar, a ****y, and umm did I say a liar?

18 negative
6 positive

Most all politicians are liars. It is what they do lie, cheat, and steal. It is all a matter of which politician better fits ones view of how things should be rather than who is telling the truth.
If you don't play their game and take sides you will see both democrats and republicans as a whole. One big group of liars, thief's, and cheats out for themselves and their families.

 

[nkb]

Something fishy about a man dropping out of Yale to to 'volunteer' <AHEM> bu!!$#!T </AHEM> to goto Vietnam and then throwing paint on returning veterans (people he supposedly fought with ) and calling them babykillers...

Brian, please explain what you mean by fishy, when a privileged person volunteers to go to war. Is it possible that he bought into the whole "communism is spreading, we have to fight it" propaganda of the time, and decided that it wasn't right for him to sit at home because he was rich, and the poor went to die?

Please explain what is fishy about it. Also, please compare that to Bush joining the National Guard, instead of the regular Armed Forces. Which one is more fishy?

Also, please provide an unbiased source for your claim that he threw paint on returning veterans. This is the first time I've heard that allegation.

 

[nkb]

Not to say they were all in his group, but I'm sure they have a reason for speaking out against him and making accusations like they have.

Yes, they have a reason for speaking out against him. Are they valid reasons? I have my doubts.

Here is a link from the Dallas Morning News, that analyzes some of the claims the Swift Boat Veterans are making.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...04/stories/081004dnpolswiftboatbox.a4584.html

Of course, this is the left-wing media, right?

 

[Brian2by2]

Yes, they have a reason for speaking out against him. Are they valid reasons? I have my doubts.

Here is a link from the Dallas Morning News, that analyzes some of the claims the Swift Boat Veterans are making.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...04/stories/081004dnpolswiftboatbox.a4584.html

Of course, this is the left-wing media, right?

pretty much everything is. Very few unbiased sources still around. I'd find one that says he threw paint on soldiers, but I don't need to, because if he didn't, I'm sure Kerry would be suing the republican party for libel.

 

[JChoice]

So DID HE or DIDN'T HE throw paint on soldiers?

 

[Brian2by2]

So DID HE or DIDN'T HE throw paint on soldiers?

On George Dubya's page, it says he did, so I'm gonna go ahead and go with that. If you want to believe otherwise, do a little research, find a left-winged page that says he didn't and move on with it

 

[nsxtasy]

Some people will believe ANYTHING GOOD about their favorite candidate, and will refuse to believe ANYTHING GOOD about his/her opponent - and the reverse for ANYTHING BAD - regardless of the source. That's what's called "lack of critical thinking", and is how so many false stories and urban legends get spread.

 

[whiteNSXs]

Some people will believe ANYTHING GOOD about their favorite candidate, and will refuse to believe ANYTHING GOOD about his/her opponent - and the reverse for ANYTHING BAD - regardless of the source. That's what's called "lack of critical thinking", and is how so many false stories and urban legends get spread.

Come on, Ken. I will bet you YOUR pink slip MOST people will believe ANYTHING GOOD about his/her favorite. If what I said is not false, you hand over your pink slip. If you are correct, I will keep your NSX. You want to take that bet?
Steve

 

[Eric5273]

What disturbs me is that presidents seem to INCREASE in popularity when things go badly. You would think a president's approval ratings would go up when there is peace, but instead they go up when there is war. You would think a president's approval ratings would go up when we are safe, but they actually go up when the public is scared and perceive they are not safe. Herman Goering was right when he said the people are sheep who can be frightened to support any agenda of the leaders. If Bush is behind in the polls come election time, look for some sort of scare-tactic to appear and sway the polls in Bush's favor.

 

[nkb]

On George Dubya's page, it says he did, so I'm gonna go ahead and go with that. If you want to believe otherwise, do a little research, find a left-winged page that says he didn't and move on with it

Please post that link, I am curious to read what Dubya's page has to say. You do actually have a link, right? It wasn't one of those emails where you got this one from?

I love your logic, by the way. If an allegation is made, you are willing to believe it, no matter how outrageous (foot fungus Purple Heart anyone?), as long as it is made against Kerry. Then you challenge people to disprove it (I'm still waiting on proof that Bush and Cheney don't eat babies for breakfast).

But, I bet if a similarly outrageous allegation was made against Bush, you would scoff at it. That's just those mud-raking Democrats, right?

I would love to hear what you think about the allegations that W joined the National Guard to avoid going to Vietnam, and then even failed to show up for duty in Alabama.

 

[nsxtasy]

I would love to hear what you think about the allegations that W joined the National Guard to avoid going to Vietnam, and then even failed to show up for duty in Alabama.

Assuming you're asking Brian2by2, his response is totally predictable. Just do the math:

SOMETHING BAD + favorite candidate = ?

 

[JChoice]

Brian - this is not a personal attack on you but the content of your posts does make it seem that you are just blindly accepting one side as fact without processing the information for youself.

I just read a full page ad in USA Today that basically says "shame on veterans for turning on fellow veterans" for political reasons. What was interesting about the ad (granted that it was a paid ad by some organization of painters or something like that) was that it said that one of the "Swift boat veterans" that attacked Kerry has already retracted his affidavit and apologized.

What pissed me off is that the ad states that when the news broke, Hannity and Scarborough made statements like, "these are the men that knew him best", "they served side by side" etc. It's a shame that people in the media are so willing to twist the truth or spit stuff out without even checking into the facts - as long as whatever comes out jives with their personal agenda.

For the record, I can't say that I'm a Kerry supporter because I don't really know enough about him. I do know how this current President has performed and I have zero confidence in him and his cabinet.

 

[Brian2by2]

Well, I'm going to go and pick up O'Neils new book "Unfit for Command" and see what he has to say. Afterall, he did take over command of Kerry's boat. He also had a pretty little run in on a television show and made Kerry look like an ass.

And I do believe that he has decided to donate all profits generated by this book to the charities of the armed services??

 

[NSXLuvr]

Just injecting some humor in the thread.

 

[Carguy!]

It cracks me up when people think that these wars are about oil, the price of a barrel of oil has never been higher. How does fighting a war help oil availability of oil prices?

If need be we have the oil available on our home soil and friendly Arab countries to sustain our usage. If anything wars provide a reason to keep raising the prices of oil.

This war was caused by some bad information from many different sources about WMD's. And other info about links to terrorism, most of that has been found to be true by the way.

It is also amazing to me how easily the public is swayed and with our election system it causes our leaders to be swayed also. I have a lot of respect for Bush that he hasn't wavered in his support of our cause.

Other countries see the support from us and act accordingly, Iran is continuing to work on Nuclear weapons and is currently testing a rocket that has the capability to reach Isreal. I truly believe that if the Iran leader saw the majority of people in the US showing their support for our efforts in the Middle East they wouldn't consider continuing developing their Nuclear weapons.

I also believe that if Iran is able to develop Nuclear weapons that they will use them against Isreal and possibly start the next World War.

Only time will tell, I hope everything works out well as I want a safe world for my children and theirs to grow up in.

 

[NSXLuvr]

Iran is continuing to work on Nuclear weapons and is currently testing a rocket that has the capability to reach Isreal. I

And did you know that the U.S.A has nuclear weapons that reach the rest of the world(and can destroy the world many times over). People from other countries say that the USA should be disarmed.

btw, if we REALLY are going to be the world police then why haven't we attacked North Korea. Afterall, they are a nuclear power, support terrorism, and have killed many of their own people(I am using bush's arguement about saving the kurds). In fact, 10% of N. Korea has died of starvation, another 10% is in jail for opposing the leader. I would have thought we should attack them next. then Iran, then ......

 

[nkb]

It cracks me up when people think that these wars are about oil, the price of a barrel of oil has never been higher. How does fighting a war help oil availability of oil prices?

It cracks me up when people think our government would give a rat's ass about the Middle East if it was the leading producer of dog shlt, instead of oil.

Do you think we would have been involved in Kuwait, if they didn't have oil?

If need be we have the oil available on our home soil and friendly Arab countries to sustain our usage. If anything wars provide a reason to keep raising the prices of oil.

The price of oil has been discussed many times. It always comes down to supply and demand.
The problem with this approach is, it doesn't take into account the price of the oil we would have to pay, and how much we can depend on the friendly Arab countries continuing being friendly.

This war was caused by some bad information from many different sources about WMD's. And other info about links to terrorism, most of that has been found to be true by the way.

Actually, the WMD sources were British and US intelligence, I don't think there were that many other sources.

Also, the terrorism links were found to NOT be accurate. There has been no proof so far that Hussein did more than show his support for terrorists.

Other countries see the support from us and act accordingly, Iran is continuing to work on Nuclear weapons and is currently testing a rocket that has the capability to reach Isreal. I truly believe that if the Iran leader saw the majority of people in the US showing their support for our efforts in the Middle East they wouldn't consider continuing developing their Nuclear weapons.

I think you're being naive in this case. I don't think the Iranian leadership cares what support there is in the US, it is completely irrelevant.
In fact, one could argue that they would be even more motivated to have nuclear weapons if they thought that the US had their act together, because that means the US could act with impunity in the area. Nuclear weapons would increase bargaining power.

There's a reason we haven't attacked North Korea yet, even though they appear to pose a much bigger threat that Saddam Hussein ever did. They have a substantial army, AND they very possibly have nukes already.

 

[nkb]

Well, I'm going to go and pick up O'Neils new book "Unfit for Command" and see what he has to say. Afterall, he did take over command of Kerry's boat. He also had a pretty little run in on a television show and made Kerry look like an ass.

Not sure how taking over Kerry's boat gives him any credibility on this subject. If I buy your car from you (which actually would involve some interaction between us), does that qualify me to make statements about your character or your history?

Once again, you need to use some common sense when reading anything. On the subject of the TV debate between Kerry and O'Neill, I have read accounts that just mention that they had a debate, to ones that mention that O'Neill lost. I haven't seen any that claim Kerry clearly lost. Of course, I don't read ultra-conservative sites (any more than I read ultra-liberal ones).