I'm thinking of starting an NSX Socal Facebook Track Days group. Let me know if that's something of interest to you guys. It would be fun to get out there together sometime and easier to keep track of track events.
Maybe blew an oil gear tracking saturday at SOW.
- Thread starter illwillem
- Start date
Oh man, sucks to see that! That's definitely an impressive time though.
Watching the video it seemed to me that you were downshifting a bit too early while braking and not rev matching your downshifts properly causing the engine to rev higher than one would expect. ie. mechanical over-rev. Are you relying on engine braking to help slow you down? If so, probably time to upgrade your brakes if you haven't already.
A wise person once told me when I first starting racing that brakes are much cheaper than engine parts so don't use your engine for braking.
A wise person once told me when I first starting racing that brakes are much cheaper than engine parts so don't use your engine for braking.
- Joined
- 19 January 2011
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yeah I was noticing that when I was putting the video it together. I was braking early but not super hard, blipping to match reves earlier than normal and trailing through the corner while on the gas, it'd be a lot better explained if I had a cam on my feet. To do correctly i was having to get into second a little earlier than I normal would so I could have the car settled from the down shift in time to really feel how late I could trail into the skid pad. You'll notice on the laps before the back was on the verrry edge while I was taking this line. I wasent early downshifting for mechanical braking. the G's arent really translating to video so well.
Thanks guys. Hopefully Ill be back out there ASAP. Ive never actually run on the track with another NSX there before, that'd be sweet.
Thanks guys. Hopefully Ill be back out there ASAP. Ive never actually run on the track with another NSX there before, that'd be sweet.
Go to NSXPO, where you can be out on the track with almost all NSXs!
If you're a Facebook guy, feel free to add yourself here.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/223948807706909/
Hope to see you out there again soon.
no please not Facebook! I hate that sh*it
just use prime, its soooo much better
you guys know if we can 5 or more we can get our own run group and a group price with speed ventures. would love to do that with you guys.
just use prime, its soooo much better
you guys know if we can 5 or more we can get our own run group and a group price with speed ventures. would love to do that with you guys.
http://www.outrageousracing.com
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FB isn't for everybody. I get it. I'll try to post events in the Socal section but FB makes the entire process of keeping up to date seamlessly a much much easier process.
There are a few owners on the Socal NSX Track Days FB page. Some of which don't log into nsxprime so perhaps its worth a try
Sorry to hear about your motor. I think your over rev engine braking downshifts did you in. I track my car a lot and I'm alway super easy on my motor and trans even though I drive it hard.
Hit me up when you guys go to the track. I'm alway down to roll. I'm going to the following events if anyone is interested:
Infineon: http://www.speedventures.com/events/eventdetail.aspx?id=403
Laguna Seca: http://www.speedventures.com/events/eventdetail.aspx?id=382
I'm trying to get my car ready for Laguna Seca that weekend. Which days were you planning to attend?
I'm 50/50 at the moment. Still need to get my trans installed.
Same here. Well, I don't track my car a lot, maybe like 8 events last year. But when I do, I try not to beat on it. When I looked at OP's video, it looks like you have a tendency to do the heel-toe downshift right when you start braking, which drives up the revs really high. Maybe I'm wrong but it looked that way to me on the vid. I know it's tempting to get the downshift over with quickly so you can get your hands back on the wheel for the braking zone and turn-in. But maybe in the future you might delay the downshift until most or at least half of the braking is done, so you'll be at lower revs in the new gear. That's what I do anyway, to try to minimize stress on the drivetrain. Or, like Captain, I won't even downshift at all and try to keep up my speed in the turn so it won't bog on the exit. But, I'm not really experienced enough to criticize, this is just my theory. Good luck with the engine, hopefully it's not too bad!
One last question.. Do you normally drive or do you trailer the NSX?
I've driven to Laguna Seca twice in the NSX, but lately I've been trailering the Car. At first I rented a uhaul trailer (which requires a few tricks to make it fit the NSX). I've recently bought a trailer. I've also paid Aaron Bitterman (owner of Speedventures to trailer it up when I couldn't).
As usual, I'm arriving late to this party (sorry, haven't had much of a chance to log in to Prime and seriously poke around in here).
+1 on the comments about downshifting early in the brake zones.
I know it doesn't sound like much, but here is some math on whether 5 minutes idling around with low oil pressure is hard on the engine: 1000 RPM represents six pistons going up and down and the crankshaft spinning in its bearings, with the potential to be under-lubricated, well, 1000 times per minute. Sixteen times per second. Five thousand times in those five minutes. And that's just at idle speed crawling around at a few MPH.
Yes, this is a difficult reminder that any time the oil light comes on shut it down immediately and leave it down, confirm unequivocally there isn't a problem, and only then attempt to restart the motor.
+1 on offering sincerest condolences and best wishes for minimal damage and cost to get the motor back to top shape.
This is one reason I quit tracking the NSX and went out and bought a cosmetically-challenged ex-Spec Miata to do track days with. Worry about lunching the NSX motor or worse, crashing it always had me nervous while on track.
But . . . if it helps any, think of it this way: The car was injured in the line of duty. :tongue: Better than it sitting in the garage looking pretty.
Hope it all works out.
+1 on the comments about downshifting early in the brake zones.
I know it doesn't sound like much, but here is some math on whether 5 minutes idling around with low oil pressure is hard on the engine: 1000 RPM represents six pistons going up and down and the crankshaft spinning in its bearings, with the potential to be under-lubricated, well, 1000 times per minute. Sixteen times per second. Five thousand times in those five minutes. And that's just at idle speed crawling around at a few MPH.
Yes, this is a difficult reminder that any time the oil light comes on shut it down immediately and leave it down, confirm unequivocally there isn't a problem, and only then attempt to restart the motor.
+1 on offering sincerest condolences and best wishes for minimal damage and cost to get the motor back to top shape.
This is one reason I quit tracking the NSX and went out and bought a cosmetically-challenged ex-Spec Miata to do track days with. Worry about lunching the NSX motor or worse, crashing it always had me nervous while on track.
But . . . if it helps any, think of it this way: The car was injured in the line of duty. :tongue: Better than it sitting in the garage looking pretty.
Hope it all works out.
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I wanted to go to laguna but my car is to loud
how do you deal with the noise limit?http://outrageousracing.com
I just have my shop install my stock exhaust when I go to Laguna Seca. I take it off an reinstall my Taitec GTLW and straight pipes when I get home.
I'm worried even my intake is too loud. Are you running the stock intake system as well ryneen?
trailering is starting to sound like a good idea.
- Joined
- 19 January 2011
- Messages
- 714
So the shop called and gave me the skinny.
Brass flakes in the oil pan so it looks like the rod bearings took damage. A bit of good news is the main journal bearings and crank its self look okay, no scoring or discoloration. They found chunks of the housing and obliterated gear in the screen of the pickup and 1/4 inch down the main oil tube. I guess when the gear shattered it took a chunk of the housing with it. The timing belt is a-ok so no interfearence mangled anything there.
So basically Im going to have to change the oil gear, housing and rod bearings. Which puts me in a bit of a conundrum. like I said earlier I already have a billet oil gear (from Dali) which is apparently different dimensions than the SOS one that goes in the modified housing. If I get the SOS upgraded one ill have to do the gear and housing combo, and since my current housing is cracked I cant send in my core and get the 400 fee back. That means that an all new housing and gear is going to be close to 1100 bucks. I've called a buddy whos a service tech at Acura and hopefully he can get me a decent deal on a OEM. That way I can use the Dali billet gear with the stock dimensions plunked in a new OEM housing. Obviously I want the upgraded stuff 'while im in there' but with the labor that i'm already on the hook for i'm definitely interested in saving as much as I can.
Ill ask here first before I take it over to the tech forum, does anyone happen to have specs for the crank end where oil gear rides? There is a bit of play when my dali one is slid on. There is no discoloration or wear indicators where it goes I just want to get the spec to be certain before everything goes back together. Ive got the tech looking too but just figured i'd ask here.
Also: does any one have any "while your in there" advise. Things that can be upgraded or checked out while its all apart. Im really looking for an excuse to do the 4.4 and LSD. :]
Brass flakes in the oil pan so it looks like the rod bearings took damage. A bit of good news is the main journal bearings and crank its self look okay, no scoring or discoloration. They found chunks of the housing and obliterated gear in the screen of the pickup and 1/4 inch down the main oil tube. I guess when the gear shattered it took a chunk of the housing with it. The timing belt is a-ok so no interfearence mangled anything there.
So basically Im going to have to change the oil gear, housing and rod bearings. Which puts me in a bit of a conundrum. like I said earlier I already have a billet oil gear (from Dali) which is apparently different dimensions than the SOS one that goes in the modified housing. If I get the SOS upgraded one ill have to do the gear and housing combo, and since my current housing is cracked I cant send in my core and get the 400 fee back. That means that an all new housing and gear is going to be close to 1100 bucks. I've called a buddy whos a service tech at Acura and hopefully he can get me a decent deal on a OEM. That way I can use the Dali billet gear with the stock dimensions plunked in a new OEM housing. Obviously I want the upgraded stuff 'while im in there' but with the labor that i'm already on the hook for i'm definitely interested in saving as much as I can.
Ill ask here first before I take it over to the tech forum, does anyone happen to have specs for the crank end where oil gear rides? There is a bit of play when my dali one is slid on. There is no discoloration or wear indicators where it goes I just want to get the spec to be certain before everything goes back together. Ive got the tech looking too but just figured i'd ask here.
Also: does any one have any "while your in there" advise. Things that can be upgraded or checked out while its all apart. Im really looking for an excuse to do the 4.4 and LSD. :]
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When mine went, I had them put in a new timing belt, water pump, and cooling system hoses before putting it back together.
I don't know how much labor savings there are in opening up the tranny, just because you're doing engine work...
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As far as the 4.4 is concerned, you'll save about $500 by having the trans already removed. You'll need to spend another $1000 in labor to rebuild the trans. Another $900 in rebuild parts (depending your mileage) and another (god knows how many $$$ the OSG 4.4 + diff goes for these days). The 4.23 R final drive went up in price too . The only part you're really saving here is the $500.
Something I would consider though is a lightened flywheel like the old Dali Tilton flywheel. It was the lightest ever made for the NSX and was designed for the stock clutch and/or a new clutch kit completely. That part of the work qualifies as a "while i'm in there" upgrade.
Maintenance items I would consider are... you may not to replace all of these but these are stuff i'd think about while i'm in there
* Vtec seals, Cam plug seals, valve cover gasket seals.
* VViS delete or fix the set screw potential problem.
* New coolant hoses
* Oil pressure sending unit replace (these go out eventually)
Other track prep stuff..
* Titanium Dave's Damper Shield and new OEM damper (if needed)
* Headers
* Oil Pan baffle
* Oil pressure/temp bung (Dali has a neat banjo bolt type fitting assembly to pick up oil temp. It's in an optimal spot and not in the pan. I can't find the link right now but if you email Dali he'll let you know which one. It's a cheap part but a pain to install. If you've got the thing apart anyway...
Mac Attack and BATMANs are going thru an engine build right now. They might be good resources to PM.
. The only part you're really saving here is the $500.Something I would consider though is a lightened flywheel like the old Dali Tilton flywheel. It was the lightest ever made for the NSX and was designed for the stock clutch and/or a new clutch kit completely. That part of the work qualifies as a "while i'm in there" upgrade.
Maintenance items I would consider are... you may not to replace all of these but these are stuff i'd think about while i'm in there
* Vtec seals, Cam plug seals, valve cover gasket seals.
* VViS delete or fix the set screw potential problem.
* New coolant hoses
* Oil pressure sending unit replace (these go out eventually)
Other track prep stuff..
* Titanium Dave's Damper Shield and new OEM damper (if needed)
* Headers
* Oil Pan baffle
* Oil pressure/temp bung (Dali has a neat banjo bolt type fitting assembly to pick up oil temp. It's in an optimal spot and not in the pan. I can't find the link right now but if you email Dali he'll let you know which one. It's a cheap part but a pain to install. If you've got the thing apart anyway...
Mac Attack and BATMANs are going thru an engine build right now. They might be good resources to PM.
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On a stock engine, there's no need to get a bigger oil pump. It's my theory that these oil pump gears aren't really breaking because of their material and how they're made, but because they're experiencing pump cavitation.
Do a google search on engine oil pump cavitation and then read here:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1543452
Anyways, I would get an OEM housing and use your existing Dali oil pump gear. Gear and housing tolerances are listed in the Service Manual. You can download a copy on Prime if you don't have the hard copy. If I had to spend more than $1500 on this wet sump pump, then I would ask Autowave to go ahead and set you up with their dry sump kit. Otherwise, you also need a baffle to put in your oil pan and you really should have an Accusump too if you're tracking. All this stuff adds up. At this point, you may just consider spending more on an awesome dry sump system.... At least ask Autowave IMO for a rough idea of the cost.
How many miles are on the engine? As far as saving money and doing some maintenance while your engine is apart, I'd seriously consider putting forged pistons in, a MLS head gasket design, ARP head studs, and new VTEC Lost Motion Assemblies. Your shop probably already has the engine gasket and o-ring kit from Honda on order anyways, so that will take care of all the stuff that may leak in the near future. If your engine has over 100k miles, the pistons and bore/hone will keep it happy for many more years. That, and you can go FI in the future with no worries up to about 500WHP.
You can spend as much or as little as you want. It just depends on how many miles are on it, and what maintenance is coming up soon that you feel you can knock out now.
Like RYU said, do the coolant hoses (all of them), VVIS check or delete, a new harmonic dampener (ATI or OEM), new WP/TB, new thermostat, coolant sensor, SOS oil pressure sender, clean your fuel injectors or do the RDX mod, powdercoat valve covers, change your fuel filter, drop fuel tank and change fuel pump (this is easier in the state your car is in now), etc.
Or you can just put it back together, go have fun, and do the other stuff later :smile:
Good luck!
Dave
Do a google search on engine oil pump cavitation and then read here:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1543452
Anyways, I would get an OEM housing and use your existing Dali oil pump gear. Gear and housing tolerances are listed in the Service Manual. You can download a copy on Prime if you don't have the hard copy. If I had to spend more than $1500 on this wet sump pump, then I would ask Autowave to go ahead and set you up with their dry sump kit. Otherwise, you also need a baffle to put in your oil pan and you really should have an Accusump too if you're tracking. All this stuff adds up. At this point, you may just consider spending more on an awesome dry sump system.... At least ask Autowave IMO for a rough idea of the cost.
How many miles are on the engine? As far as saving money and doing some maintenance while your engine is apart, I'd seriously consider putting forged pistons in, a MLS head gasket design, ARP head studs, and new VTEC Lost Motion Assemblies. Your shop probably already has the engine gasket and o-ring kit from Honda on order anyways, so that will take care of all the stuff that may leak in the near future. If your engine has over 100k miles, the pistons and bore/hone will keep it happy for many more years. That, and you can go FI in the future with no worries up to about 500WHP.
You can spend as much or as little as you want. It just depends on how many miles are on it, and what maintenance is coming up soon that you feel you can knock out now.
Like RYU said, do the coolant hoses (all of them), VVIS check or delete, a new harmonic dampener (ATI or OEM), new WP/TB, new thermostat, coolant sensor, SOS oil pressure sender, clean your fuel injectors or do the RDX mod, powdercoat valve covers, change your fuel filter, drop fuel tank and change fuel pump (this is easier in the state your car is in now), etc.
Or you can just put it back together, go have fun, and do the other stuff later :smile:
Good luck!
Dave
Yeah, I should have mentioned that. :redface: (I assume "damper" is another name for the crankshaft pulley, with its harmonic balancer function.) I had to replace mine since its disintegration was the root cause of the engine failure, but I would replace it with a new one on any early NSX if you already have the engine out. And install Dave's shield, too.
