Lexus LF-A

[NSXTC]

The implications of this car coming soon to the market should be quite obvious to Honda:

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=7728&categoryId=1

The V10 will also be larger producing 500hp and will acheive a top speed of over 200MPH.

Look for the debut at the Tokyo motor show.

Pricing should be around $150k.

 

[twizt2]

That picture isn't very flattering. :frown:

 

[NSXGMS]

That picture isn't very flattering. :frown:

Ha! You're right...I don't really even like the flattering pics of the car.

Aside from that, the implications are a marketing disaster for Toyota. What should be obvious to Honda is that they need to price the new NSX as far below 120K as possible.

I guarantee it won't be faster than a ZO6 nor a 911TT. What's the allure? At least the NSX was good-looking when it came out. This car is far from beautiful. It looks like a luxury rice rocket.

The LF-A is no threat, IMO. Toyota is going to learn the hard way what Honda has learned the past 15 years. If Toyota thinks they're going to make any money on this project they're going to be in for a shock. The Lexus badge simply cannot sustain sales in the 150K+ range. Neither can Honda or Acura.

My bet: no more than 200 cars sold the first year. The only value this car will have is in Jay Leno's garage in 30 years.

 

[OneRedNSX]

looks like somebody punched a celica in the face :frown:

 

[rickysals]

The LF-A is no threat, IMO. Toyota is going to learn the hard way what Honda has learned the past 15 years. If Toyota thinks they're going to make any money on this project they're going to be in for a shock. The Lexus badge simply cannot sustain sales in the 150K+ range. Neither can Honda or Acura.

I dont know about that. Lexus has ALOT more clout than Acura ever has. Lexus is not looked down upon nearly as much as Acura is by the Mercedes-type crowd.

Let's remember, initially the NSX was a success. They sold alot the first couple years, then the sales died off, less and less as the competition caught up. If it had been treated like Porsche treats the 911 we'd be thinking about the 3rd or 4th gen NSX supercar.

I'd say $150K is accurate and I expect the next-gen NSX (if we're talking midengined V10 500HP) to be very close to this $$.

 

[NSXGMS]

I dont know about that. Lexus has ALOT more clout than Acura ever has. Lexus is not looked down upon nearly as much as Acura is by the Mercedes-type crowd.

Let's remember, initially the NSX was a success. They sold alot the first couple years, then the sales died off, less and less as the competition caught up. If it had been treated like Porsche treats the 911 we'd be thinking about the 3rd or 4th gen NSX supercar.

I'd say $150K is accurate and I expect the next-gen NSX (if we're talking midengined V10 500HP) to be very close to this $$.

I always respect your opinion. Lexus does have more clout, but these are uncharted waters. I really do not believe they have $150K clout. This goes way beyond the $60K tag the NSX had in 1991.

I stand by my opinion that anyone w/ $150K to drop will not drop it on a Lexus. There's too many alternatives out there now and based on the threads I've read the vast majority of NSX owners think that $150K is way too much money for the next NSX. That's because it's no longer affordable which it had to be to compete against Ferrari and actually sell.

I hate to get all liftshard on everyone but Lexus will never, ever have the reputation Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Bentley and Aston Martin have. Never, ever. I believe that as unfortunate as it may be people with $150K to spend will buy one of those other cars before this LF-A. Most people spending $150K on a car do not care about reliablilty, balance and some of the other things the the NSX made famous. They just don't.

Honda needed to update the car one generation earlier than they did (NA2 in 1994, body redesign in 1997 +3.5L 320HP). The HSC should have arrived in 2002 w/ 400HP+, and even then the sales would have been adequate at $89K. That's why I also feel the next NSX must be incredible and still be priced right. This $100k + arena is a real tough niche for anything other than the old faithful brands.

And there's a big gap between the $100-120K market and the $150K market. I just fail to see what the market is for this car. There's just too much competition in that range. You do not want to have a situation where people can spend less money and get a 911TT. Because they will. I will say that Lexus does have a big fat 500HP engine for bragging rights and that will ultimately help it. That's something Honda should learn from for sure.

Not to mention the looks of the LF-A are pretty uninspiring, at least to me.

Anyway, I hope I'm proved wrong and this car provides a real niche for Japanese cars in this market. It will make it much easier for the next NSX to be a sales success.

 

[rickysals]

I respect your opinion as well man, I agree with about 90% of your post in all honesty

I don't think it'll do amazingly well, but I don't think it'll bomb either.

People do drop near $200,000 for a Ford remember.

 

[NSXGMS]

People do drop near $200,000 for a Ford remember.

Yep, that's inexplicable. But it is a one-off limited production. I was looking at total Ford GT sales and came across this one that actually appeared at number 5 on a Yahoo search engine! Prime gets around!! :biggrin: :

That was the only way for Ford to be able to sell a 150k+ car: super low production.

Anything above 2-3000 units is very difficult to sell at high price if you are not part of the top prestige brands.

That is why I keep on repeating that the new NSX should stay at below 90k, better in the low 80s.

 

[WingZ]

I dont know about that. Lexus has ALOT more clout than Acura ever has. Lexus is not looked down upon nearly as much as Acura is by the Mercedes-type crowd.

Let's remember, initially the NSX was a success. They sold alot the first couple years, then the sales died off, less and less as the competition caught up. If it had been treated like Porsche treats the 911 we'd be thinking about the 3rd or 4th gen NSX supercar.

I'd say $150K is accurate and I expect the next-gen NSX (if we're talking midengined V10 500HP) to be very close to this $$.

Apparently the pricing is already set from this thread


http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54624



I'm just wondering how they'll cut the costs so that it starts where the old model left off fully loaded.

 

[liftcontrol]

This is an article from Honda President's press interview...

according to this article, the [NSX] successor will be priced at 10,000,000 yen (approx $89,645.90).

-------
Actually it is very difficult to take anything the Honda President says very seriously. First he boasted that the world should get ready for a car that Ferrari would fear and now it appears from all accounts that the car is to be an Aston wannabe and not a true sports car at all

That price of $89k or so for a V10, 500hp, all wheel drive, front engined luxo sports/GT is hardly likely. If the car by any (hopeful) chance does turn out to be a mid engine Ferrari fighter (as it should to be called an NSX successor), then the price would have to be around the LF-A's 150k as it would have to have extensive use of light metal/fiber and all else that must go into making a real contender.

As for the LF-A, those few who have seen the prototype is person are impressed by it. This current nose job is clearly ridiculous and out of proportion to the rest of the simple clean lines of the car. If Toyota can truly produce a very light weight, 500 hp exotic with the reliability befitting it's name, then I cannot see why they will not succeed with it. I for one would be very tempted. Remember that they will not intend to sell these in large volumes but as their statement of their engineering prowess. Also, Toyota can absorb the theoretical financial loss far (far) better than any other car maker in the world.

IF Honda go the Aston way, and Toyota goes the enthusiast direction with a true sports/exotic car, then I am certain that a good many of the true sports car lovers would not hesitate from purchasing the LF-A. I will pay the 150k if it is a true performer and not just a pretender and if Honda decides to change directions.:wink:

Check this out as well.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=105484
and
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3601/gallery/

 

[NsSeX]

I dont know about that. Lexus has ALOT more clout than Acura ever has. Lexus is not looked down upon nearly as much as Acura is by the Mercedes-type crowd.

Let's remember, initially the NSX was a success. They sold alot the first couple years, then the sales died off, less and less as the competition caught up. If it had been treated like Porsche treats the 911 we'd be thinking about the 3rd or 4th gen NSX supercar.

I'd say $150K is accurate and I expect the next-gen NSX (if we're talking midengined V10 500HP) to be very close to this $$.

Totally agree with you that the Lexus brand image is a lot stronger than Acura's will ever be. I hate to say it, but Honda has really dropped the ball with acura. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, Lexus and Acura were viewed as equals. :frown:
Just my opinion, but I think the LF-a will actually do pretty well.

 

[WingZ]

This is an article from Honda President's press interview...

according to this article, the [NSX] successor will be priced at 10,000,000 yen (approx $89,645.90).

-------
Actually it is very difficult to take anything the Honda President says very seriously. First he boasted that the world should get ready for a car that Ferrari would fear and now it appears from all accounts that the car is to be an Aston wannabe and not a true sports car at all

That price of $89k or so for a V10, 500hp, all wheel drive, front engined luxo sports/GT is hardly likely. If the car by any (hopeful) chance does turn out to be a mid engine Ferrari fighter (as it should to be called an NSX successor), then the price would have to be around the LF-A's 150k as it would have to have extensive use of light metal/fiber and all else that must go into making a real contender.

As for the LF-A, those few who have seen the prototype is person are impressed by it. This current nose job is clearly ridiculous and out of proportion to the rest of the simple clean lines of the car. If Toyota can truly produce a very light weight, 500 hp exotic with the reliability befitting it's name, then I cannot see why they will not succeed with it. I for one would be very tempted. Remember that they will not intend to sell these in large volumes but as their statement of their engineering prowess. Also, Toyota can absorb the theoretical financial loss far (far) better than any other car maker in the world.

IF Honda go the Aston way, and Toyota goes the enthusiast direction with a true sports/exotic car, then I am certain that a good many of the true sports car lovers would not hesitate from purchasing the LF-A. I will pay the 150k if it is a true performer and not just a pretender and if Honda decides to change directions.:wink:

Check this out as well.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=105484
and
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3601/gallery/

Hey Lift

I heard/read that there are two cars being developed on a GT and one a pure sportscar. Apparently they've both been spotted on Hondas development track. I'm thinking that by maybe the new one not being handmade they'll save money.

 

[liftcontrol]

Let's hope so WingZ. If they can produce a true NSX replacement for under 100k it would be phenomenal and good for all us enthusiasts:smile:

 

[WingZ]

Let's hope so WingZ. If they can produce a true NSX replacement for under 100k it would be phenomenal and good for all us enthusiasts:smile:

Amen brutha!

 

[Silver F16]

Toyota may have more $$ and better branding with the Lexus nameplate, but Toyota does not have the heritage or know how to make a true exotic pure sports car to compete with NSX, Porsche, or Ferrari.

Some people think that $$ will buy you the talent and a team of people to construct a exotic sports car. Heritage plays a huge part. It is not Lexus to brand or make a hard core sports car. It is not consistent with their branding nor is exotic sports car a strength for Toyota.

Toyota may be able to hire suspension specialist, engine specialist, chassis specialist, but all the specialist still leaves gaps because the team consist of more than a few specialist. As a whole, the execution will fall short. The IS300 was the first step away from Luxury boat mobile for Lexus and enter into the Sports Sedan market and compete with 3 series. Having read the great reviews, I became an owner and come to realize no matter how much I soup up the IS300 with suspension and chassis mods, the car just won't perform as well or feel as well as a BMW, or even a TSX with summer tires.

Honda knows its sh*% when it comes to engine, chassis, and sports car. This has been a part of their identity for a long time. And it took them a long time to develop these strength. Toyota lacks this. The LF-A may have a high powered engine, but I expect the chassis to suck hence it will be a GT to compete with Aston Martin and Jaguar. Nothing more.

 

[liftcontrol]

Toyota may have more $$ and better branding with the Lexus nameplate, but Toyota does not have the heritage or know how to make a true exotic pure sports car to compete with NSX, Porsche, or Ferrari.

Some people think that $$ will buy you the talent and a team of people to construct a exotic sports car. Heritage plays a huge part. It is not Lexus to brand or make a hard core sports car. It is not consistent with their branding nor is exotic sports car a strength for Toyota.

Toyota may be able to hire suspension specialist, engine specialist, chassis specialist, but all the specialist still leaves gaps because the team consist of more than a few specialist. As a whole, the execution will fall short. The IS300 was the first step away from Luxury boat mobile for Lexus and enter into the Sports Sedan market and compete with 3 series. Having read the great reviews, I became an owner and come to realize no matter how much I soup up the IS300 with suspension and chassis mods, the car just won't perform as well or feel as well as a BMW, or even a TSX with summer tires.

Honda knows its sh*% when it comes to engine, chassis, and sports car. This has been a part of their identity for a long time. And it took them a long time to develop these strength. Toyota lacks this. The LF-A may have a high powered engine, but I expect the chassis to suck hence it will be a GT to compete with Aston Martin and Jaguar. Nothing more.

Wow! Those are some harsh statements about Toyota! Granted it does not have the Racing history that Honda has, it still has the financial wherewithal and technical excellence to produce an exotic if it so chooses. Do not neglect some great names like the Supra TT, the Celica 4WD and the mid engined MR2 as some fine recent examples of world class sports cars from Toyota. The 2000GT was a fine example of a sports car when a sports car from Japan was a rarity indeed. Lately they are also active in F1 among other racing series and that experience is sure to filter to the LF-A.
If they are determined to make a first class exotic, given their desire and ability to procure the best and brightest from around the world, they can and I suspect will do it. Toyota has a habit of achievement.

http://www.toyota-f1.com/public/en/index_e.html
http://www.toyotaracing.co.nz/
http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Racing_Development

Honda engineers without doubt have the capability but without corporate backing they are handcuffed and their ability alone is not enough.

 

[NSXGMS]

Wow! Those are some harsh statements about Toyota! Granted it does not have the Racing history that Honda has, it still has the financial wherewithal and technical excellence to produce an exotic if it so chooses. Do not neglect some great names like the Supra TT, the Celica 4WD and the mid engined MR2 as some fine recent examples of world class sports cars from Toyota. The 2000GT was a fine example of a sports car when a sports car from Japan was a rarity indeed. Lately they are also active in F1 among other racing series and that experience is sure to filter to the LF-A.
If they are determined to make a first class exotic, given their desire and ability to procure the best and brightest from around the world, they can and I suspect will do it. Toyota has a habit of achievement.

http://www.toyota-f1.com/public/en/index_e.html
http://www.toyotaracing.co.nz/
http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Racing_Development

Honda engineers without doubt have the capability but without corporate backing they are handcuffed and their ability alone is not enough.

I'm not doubting Toyota's ability to make a sports car. I'm sure they could do anything they want if they put their eternal sportsmind to. But this LF-A ain't it. It is no NSX. No way.

Toyota is trying to compete with Aston and Porsche and try to take some wind out of Ferrari's sails and they are going to fail. This car won't compete against Ferrari. It's a boat! And have you seen the new 599GTB? What a car! The 612 is a a GT car. The LF-A looks like some weird 350Z sports-GT hybrid. Is is a racer? Is it a GT? So we know it's not going to have the performance of a 430, it's not going to be as balanced and powerful as the 599 and it's not going to have the refinement of a 612. Where does the competition begin? The NSX was much cheaper, faster, better-looking and more comfortable/driveable than the 348 (the F430 of it's day)--all tangible traits.

I see nothing that would make me spend 30K more on this over a Vantage or 911TT. And quite frankly, the "Japanese" factor goes away when you price the car 30K more than the competition.

All I'm saying is this: I'm sure the LF-A will be a great car. A phenomenal car. Toyota has never put out a dog. But I just don't see where Toyota is going with this car. Seems very strange. It's not another NSX. It's not following the same path to success at all. This is just to me a strange looking car whose overall character and performance is in question and has a big motor and an obscene price tag.

 

[liftcontrol]

I'm not doubting Toyota's ability to make a sports car. I'm sure they could do anything they want if they put their eternal sportsmind to. But this LF-A ain't it. It is no NSX. No way.

Toyota is trying to compete with Aston and Porsche and try to take some wind out of Ferrari's sails and they are going to fail. This car won't compete against Ferrari. It's a boat! And have you seen the new 599GTB? What a car! The 612 is a a GT car. The LF-A looks like some weird 350Z sports-GT hybrid. Is is a racer? Is it a GT?

......
I have a feeling that you may not have read the specifics on this car.
It is not a BOAT for one thing! The 911 is more of a boat than the LF-A.

The LF-A is "several inches" shorter, lower and wider than a 911T. With its extensive use of light weight materials it is lighter than a 911. With its 500+ hp V10 and F1 derived chassis it will be a true exotic/sports car and not a GT.

 

[NSXGMS]

I have a feeling that you may not have read the specifics on this car.
It is not a BOAT for one thing! The 911 is more of a boat than the LF-A.

The LF-A is "several inches" shorter, lower and wider than a 911T. With its extensive use of light weight materials it is lighter than a 911. With its 500+ hp V10 and F1 derived chassis it will be a true exotic/sports car and not a GT.

Well, that makes me feel a bit better. This may have the performance after all. I hope it does well, I really do. But that market is tough to crack--I'm upping my estimate to 1500 cars the first year. :biggrin:

$150K is just a bit high, methinks. We will see.

 

[liftcontrol]

Well, that makes me feel a bit better. This may have the performance after all. I hope it does well, I really do. But that market is tough to crack--I'm upping my estimate to 1500 cars the first year. :biggrin:

$150K is just a bit high, methinks. We will see.

NSXGMS, check out the interior pics over here. It seems to ooze quality and substance. Forget that it is Japanese, just look at the inherent quality. We did forgive the NSX for being "Just a Japanese wannabe exotic" because of its stellar qualities. I suspect that the LF-A, if not Honda, will take that same spirit and take it to another level.
Enjoy:smile:
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...xus+lf-a&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2

 

[Silver F16]

Yea, I suppose the harsh statements are a result of my disappointment with Toyota’s not-so-sporty products. Being a Toyota owner made me realize that Toyotas lack the “FEEL” and the chassis dynamics of Hondas. I guess you can say I’ve been spoiled by Hondas. I’m aware of the Toyota products you mentioned. Granted I haven’t driven the 2000 GT. With that exception of the first generation MR-2, most of these cars you mentioned lack proper sport car feel. Supra is fast and sticks like glue, but the handling lacks feel. Celica engines are very boomy and are not eager to rev.

Any manufacturer can make a car go fast car and corners with high Gs. These high performance numbers is a pre-requesit for a sports car. However, on the deeper level, a true sports sports car needs substance. This substance is felt from our sense of FEEL. A driver needs to feel one with the car, hence he has the confidence to dance with the car. That is what discerns the Corvette from the NSX.


How do Toyota’s lack feel? See my comments below regarding a forums discussion on the upcoming IS500 sedan.

Having experienced the many world class manual transmission from Honda including NSX, TSX, S2000, and now the Civic Si, I can't help but be disappointed at Toyota when it comes to development of Manual transmission. For that matter, disappointed with the lack of a true sports cars or sport sedans.

Toyota is all about MASS volume vehicles. We all know that. Hence if you want a car with the total package that caters to the hard core enthusiasts, do you believe that toyota has the experience and heritage to deliver? There are too many conflicting principles between what Toyota values versus design requirements for true sports sedan/cars.

With the IS500, how far will toyota go to make it a true sports sedan? You already read about the power enhancements and uprate springs and shocks What about the following:

1. Will Toyota further reinforce the chassis with additional welds spots, bracing, and strut tower bar?
2. Will they increase the hardness of suspension bushings and increase hub size to decrease defection of these components under severe cornering load, hence providing a more secure direct handling.
3. Will they increase the steering bushing hardness to bring back vibration to the steering wheel and hence offer great driver feedback on road conditions and feel the slight pulses from the engine back to the steering wheel as the drivers revs the engine.
4. Will Toyota reduce the steering assist to increase steering force for better driver feedback of steering forces during mid-corner.
5. Will sport seats with aggressive bolster be available to keep you in place
6. Will Toyota put in stiffer rubber hoses and calibrate the master cylinder to increase driver feel and not have a mushy pedal like the IS300
7. Will Toyota increase the engine and exhaust sound levels so it caters to enthusiasts ears.
8. Will it have an engine with some high revving racing pedigree or it is just a different tune of the same engine found in the new Lexus LS.
9. Will Toyota get rid of the throttle pedal damper spring which introduces throttle delay
10. Will Toyota truly offer a track mode for VDIM? Or at least a kill switch?
11. Will Toyota properly tune the setup of their springs and Shocks for enthusiasts driving so it is not under damped or overdamped in both compression and rebound.
12. Will toyota still have the annoying Brake Assist that gives you non-linear control and engages ABS when you don't want to because you know threshold braking can out brake ABS, at least under dry conditions.
13. Will the A/F ratio still be tuned to a conservative ratio of less than 12:1 ratio under heavy load.
14. Will Toyota put in a LSD to lock both wheels together when you power out from a turn?
15. Will the ABS unit be calibrated with a very high threshold so it does not engage until absolutely necessary. Let the driver control the car, not the other way around.
16. Lastly, will it have a true 6-speed manual transi.

Much of what an enthusiasts desire is contrary to what toyota stands for. An enthusiasts wants feedback, sound, and ultimate control of the vehicle. Toyota is very much about quiet, smoothness, and vehicle internvention over driver control. After becoming a Toyota owner, I've learned that if I wanted some good running shoes, I better head to a Nike or Reebok store and stop shopping for that new running shoes from Kenneth Cole.

On the surface level, high performance numbers are a pre-requesit for a sports sedan. On the deeper level, a true sports sedan needs substance. This substance is felt from our sense of FEEL. A driver needs to feel one with the car, hence he has the confidence to dance with the car.

 

[liftcontrol]

Well, not everyone will purchase the LF-A or the upcoming NSX replacement or the upcoming Nissan GT-R. To each his own and be thankful for the great choices we have.

 

[KooLaid]

It IS an exciting next two years!

 

[ChrisK]

......
I have a feeling that you may not have read the specifics on this car.
It is not a BOAT for one thing! The 911 is more of a boat than the LF-A.

The LF-A is "several inches" shorter, lower and wider than a 911T. With its extensive use of light weight materials it is lighter than a 911. With its 500+ hp V10 and F1 derived chassis it will be a true exotic/sports car and not a GT.

I think the LF-A will perform with the best of them and open up a lot of eyes. In Lexus press releases they did call it a GT car though, so we will have to wait and see what class the public accepts the LF-A in. Also, I believe it is going to be a limmited production (Not sure if it is over all or per year) so they will sell every single one of them. Persoanlly, unless they changed the rear end from the concept version I think the back is kind of ugly.

 

[BD]

I guarantee it won't be faster than a ZO6 nor a 911TT. What's the allure? At least the NSX was good-looking when it came out. This car is far from beautiful. It looks like a luxury rice rocket.

The LF-A is no threat, IMO. Toyota is going to learn the hard way what Honda has learned the past 15 years. If Toyota thinks they're going to make any money on this project they're going to be in for a shock. The Lexus badge simply cannot sustain sales in the 150K+ range. Neither can Honda or Acura.

My bet: no more than 200 cars sold the first year. The only value this car will have is in Jay Leno's garage in 30 years.

I disagree with you completely. Honda, BMW, Toyota, Cosworth, MB is spending combine of over a Billion bucks just to develope the F1 V8 engine within the past 12 months, is that a looser deal? They didn't win any races.

NSX is rather a success story in the beginning. There are 19000 sold world wide, far greater than any single model Ferrari.