Being a local hpde instructor does not guarantee any mental stability/balance.All that means is the guy has proven to the organizers that he is reliable ,to show up, and can drive his own car to someones satisfaction.The main motivation for some is free track time.That is a mixed bag. Personally(if asked) I will drive a students car safely within the limitations of the equipment. I do offer rides in my car....which can take up most of my day, but I think that is very helpful for intermediate and advanced students.Insurance is good to have,honor is something else entirely.
Lesson Finally Learned At Track
- Thread starter silver2002
- Start date
I guess the moral of the story here other than don't let instructors drive your car is that instructors can be anywhere from a professional like stuntman or some kinda broke ricer kid that does it for free track time.
Juice, dude that is a terrible story, I'm glad you know the douchebags name and posted it. How much damage was done to your car? Can you try a different angle with your girlfriend in that repairing it would raise the value back up so you can get more money when you sell it? Then even if you sell it at least you get to drive it for a while instead of owning a carcass in a barn.
Juice, dude that is a terrible story, I'm glad you know the douchebags name and posted it. How much damage was done to your car? Can you try a different angle with your girlfriend in that repairing it would raise the value back up so you can get more money when you sell it? Then even if you sell it at least you get to drive it for a while instead of owning a carcass in a barn.
Know his name? He is a fellow NSX owner and frequent instructor at NSXPO events. The night before the incident we were at dinner together and asked me why I looked so nervous. I told him that I was concerned that I might make a mistake and damage my car on track the next day. He told me not to worry, that the instructors would take good care of me.
Seriously. This happened.
Seriously. This happened.
I need to say that I don't think Bruce is a bad guy. I think he drove a car that he was unfamiliar with at levels that the car had never seen before. Also, the car was way more powerful than most NSX out there and he was pulling in the other extremely boosted NSX at the track, driven by none other than Wei Shen. By his admission, he was at 8/10ths.
But his lack of follow up and dismissive nature to my plight is unforgivable in my eyes. He walked away and never looked back. Due to the fact that it was on track, I have no legal recourse. And he knows it. He will continue to be asked to instruct at NSXPO, while I am no longer capable of attending the event, at least in a car of my own. I am a more honorable man, and I could never do this to another person. I guess that is why I have a hard time accepting that it has been done to me.
But his lack of follow up and dismissive nature to my plight is unforgivable in my eyes. He walked away and never looked back. Due to the fact that it was on track, I have no legal recourse. And he knows it. He will continue to be asked to instruct at NSXPO, while I am no longer capable of attending the event, at least in a car of my own. I am a more honorable man, and I could never do this to another person. I guess that is why I have a hard time accepting that it has been done to me.
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I don't think I could either. Truly sorry this happened to you. In my "group," if it breaks or crashes or etc. irrespective of whether it's the car or the driver or a Yeti in the middle of the road, the driver is responsible.
I won't take issue with you being upset over the ultimate financial outcome.
But putting that aside, another lesson for others to learn is that be careful of what you bring to the track for your first event. In my opinion (I am not an instructor but am an Open Tracker with 111 track days and over 11,000 track miles in my NSX), a 500 hp NSX on street tires is not what I would be comfortable learning in. Even before the incident you describe you spun your NSX off the track while you were driving. That is a lot of power for a newbie and there should have been no comparison to the speeds Wei Shen can do.
As for the actual major incident, I just wanted to point out that the instructor used his experience to save the lives of both. Given the brake failure at that speed at that corner I have my doubts that more than a handful of drivers could have reacted as quickly and driven that "emergency line" to scrub speed and minimize the potential for serious if not fatal injuries.
This is absolute fact. His ability to react accordingly was indeed top notch and undoubtedly attributed to our ability to not only walk away, but with absolutely no injury to either of us. For that, I am eternally thankful.
Throughout my life I have been blessed with what everyone refers to as "The best worst luck of anyone known." I have been through and dealt with a lot of travesty my short time on this earth, but I always seem to walk away relatively healthy. This is just another example to be thankful for.
The point still remains - If you wreck your own car, that's your problem. But if you let someone else wreck your car, it remains your problem. I don't care if someone advertises themselves as Jesus on wheels, DON'T LET THEM DRIVE YOUR CAR.
And another point is that don't drive beyond your comfort level - irrespective of what your instructor is trying to have you do.
When I was trying to move from Intermediate to Advanced many moons ago, I had a Corvette racer as my instructor. Definitely knew what he was doing - but in a Corvette. We were at Watkins Glen and he was having me incrementally increase my speed in Turn 10 by adding 2 mph per lap. Previously, with my setup I felt as if 92 mph was the point that I began to lose grip. I told him that. He said I had more to go and had me add 2 more mph and as I hit 93, my car oversteered but I was able to catch it after the pucker factor took over. He then calmly told me that I was right, my setup couldn't go beyond 92 in that corner.
When I was trying to move from Intermediate to Advanced many moons ago, I had a Corvette racer as my instructor. Definitely knew what he was doing - but in a Corvette. We were at Watkins Glen and he was having me incrementally increase my speed in Turn 10 by adding 2 mph per lap. Previously, with my setup I felt as if 92 mph was the point that I began to lose grip. I told him that. He said I had more to go and had me add 2 more mph and as I hit 93, my car oversteered but I was able to catch it after the pucker factor took over. He then calmly told me that I was right, my setup couldn't go beyond 92 in that corner.
I applaud juices level head after all this time.It was a crushing shock of a thing to happen to a car that had so much time effort and money put into it in mods ect.It has taken a long time to become "public".Indeed track driving is a risky sport that all of us look at from the glass half full perspective....you can't go out there with the thoughts of disaster wafting through your brain.All you can do is plan for the worst but always hope for the best.The big take home points are obvious..but the one that Bob brought up is a good one not often used by students...seek out a per click insurance plan.
Wow, Really ?
I'm curious how you were partly to blame for his careless driving with a car that didn't belong to him.
I'm curious how you were partly to blame for his careless driving with a car that didn't belong to him.
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Hard for me to believe Bruce McPherson aka Track Junkie is still the Chief Instructor for the NSXCA based on such behavior. How can someone wreck another's car and feel no responsibility whatsoever?
I am actually nauseous seeing those pictures and hearing how this happened... I am so happy you are unhurt, I am so sorry that this irresponsible "instructor" did this to your car.
Once again, putting aside the "issue" of reimbursement for a moment, just to play devil's advocate the use of the term "irresponsible" in relationship to the actual manner in which the car was being driven is inaccurate. There is nothing to disprove the instructor's report of sudden, catastrophic brake failure after which the instructor used his skills and judgment to not only save the lives of both but also avoid any injuries at all in the incident. The fluid levels and brake pedal testing done after did not indicate that there was no catastrophic failure at the end of the straight.
Irrespective of anyone's experiences with instructors at HPDE events, I would challenge anyone to give an example of someone who intentionally would put their own life at risk just to push a car to its limits. Yes, instructors and advanced drivers will push the cars more than a novice driver but I don't see anyone risking their life just to get a few more mph on the straights. An instructor driving a car at "8/10ths" is driving well within the limits absent catastrophic mechanical failures.
In terms of whether the instructor "boiled the fluid", that is something that theoretically should not happen for a car that is track prepped properly. Once again, I am not an instructor but I have 111 track days in my '96 NSX for over 11,000 track miles, the last 8000 miles or so have been at 9/10ths on tracks all over the country and I experienced similar brake failure only once and that was on the last lap of my last session at Texas Motor Speedway after already having just completed two full days at Texas Motorsports Ranch (and after driving from NY to Texas for the event). I had pushed the car beyond its limits for how I prepped a car that "early" in my HPDE training and upgraded everything the next season.
It is difficult to believe that the instructor would have "boiled the fluid" that early in the session assuming everything was done in advance to make it track ready. Nevertheless, it was clear that there was a catastrophic "brake failure" at the end of the straight, the cause of which admittedly is not and will never be known, after which the instructor reacted in a highly skilled manner, without panicking, and saved two lives.
Yes, it is a shame the car was damaged and I won't comment on the financial aspects of the situation. However, I believe it is inappropriate to characterize the instructor's driving as "irresponsible".
Irrespective of anyone's experiences with instructors at HPDE events, I would challenge anyone to give an example of someone who intentionally would put their own life at risk just to push a car to its limits. Yes, instructors and advanced drivers will push the cars more than a novice driver but I don't see anyone risking their life just to get a few more mph on the straights. An instructor driving a car at "8/10ths" is driving well within the limits absent catastrophic mechanical failures.
In terms of whether the instructor "boiled the fluid", that is something that theoretically should not happen for a car that is track prepped properly. Once again, I am not an instructor but I have 111 track days in my '96 NSX for over 11,000 track miles, the last 8000 miles or so have been at 9/10ths on tracks all over the country and I experienced similar brake failure only once and that was on the last lap of my last session at Texas Motor Speedway after already having just completed two full days at Texas Motorsports Ranch (and after driving from NY to Texas for the event). I had pushed the car beyond its limits for how I prepped a car that "early" in my HPDE training and upgraded everything the next season.
It is difficult to believe that the instructor would have "boiled the fluid" that early in the session assuming everything was done in advance to make it track ready. Nevertheless, it was clear that there was a catastrophic "brake failure" at the end of the straight, the cause of which admittedly is not and will never be known, after which the instructor reacted in a highly skilled manner, without panicking, and saved two lives.
Yes, it is a shame the car was damaged and I won't comment on the financial aspects of the situation. However, I believe it is inappropriate to characterize the instructor's driving as "irresponsible".
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Please prove it was a brake failure.
You, or anyone else, prove it wasn't........
No one saw or reported an early/late apex, drop of a wheel/s, being offline, unsafe pass or any other obvious driver error. There were no such reports from the corner workers (and we were fully manned), observers or even the passenger.
If you let your buddy take your NSX on the highway and a hose blows spewing coolant on the rear tires and he spins into a wall would you expect him to pay for the damage?
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Perfect. Then we are all entitled to opinions, and should be stated as such.
I never said people weren't entitled to opinions but opinions coming from persons who were not there and who were not involved in the investigation are simply speculation and add nothing of value to the discussion.
This could have been something as simple as air in the brake lines. There is no way to know whether the brakes were bled properly prior to the event. Is it possible that is what occurred? Sure. Do I know? No.
What I do know is that there were no reports of the instructor "driving irresponsibly" while on track.
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Catastrophic brake failure....hmmmm....
The term catastrophic failure describes a sudden and total failure of some system from which recovery is impossible.
Brakes just don't go completely away without warning if it was boiled fluid, first comes fade which should tell anyone paying attention what is about to happen or happening.
Makes me wonder if he was left foot braking and hit the clutch pedal rather than the brake pedal since the brakes were fine right after the incident.
As far as driving at 8/10th-9/10th, who's ?...One persons 8/10th or 9/10th cannot be compared to someone else's 8/10th or 9/10th.
Never quite understood that term or how it has any meaning from one person to another.
My 8/10th could be someone else's 6/10th, or for that matter, someone else's 10/10th.
Its irrelevant from one person to the next.
As Juice stated:
>>Also, the car was way more powerful than most NSX out there and he was pulling in the other extremely boosted NSX at the track, driven by none other than Wei Shen. By his admission, he was at 8/10ths.<<
I call that irresponsible to be driving a car like this that, 1. Doesn't belong to you, and 2. You have no real seat time in. (if the 8/10th's means anything at all)
Wish I had 111 track days and over 11,000 miles miles on a race track LOL. Then I might be able to drive at 9/10ths, in someone's else car of course.
The term catastrophic failure describes a sudden and total failure of some system from which recovery is impossible.
Brakes just don't go completely away without warning if it was boiled fluid, first comes fade which should tell anyone paying attention what is about to happen or happening.
Makes me wonder if he was left foot braking and hit the clutch pedal rather than the brake pedal since the brakes were fine right after the incident.
As far as driving at 8/10th-9/10th, who's ?...One persons 8/10th or 9/10th cannot be compared to someone else's 8/10th or 9/10th.
Never quite understood that term or how it has any meaning from one person to another.
My 8/10th could be someone else's 6/10th, or for that matter, someone else's 10/10th.
Its irrelevant from one person to the next.
As Juice stated:
>>Also, the car was way more powerful than most NSX out there and he was pulling in the other extremely boosted NSX at the track, driven by none other than Wei Shen. By his admission, he was at 8/10ths.<<
I call that irresponsible to be driving a car like this that, 1. Doesn't belong to you, and 2. You have no real seat time in. (if the 8/10th's means anything at all)
Wish I had 111 track days and over 11,000 miles miles on a race track LOL. Then I might be able to drive at 9/10ths, in someone's else car of course.
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for those thinking that Bob is "defending" Bruce....imho he is only defending Bruce from the point where as Bruce stated he had no brakes going into a heavy braking zone.....so given that Bruce did very well to have both Josh and he walk away.We can only speculate what occured before that.Only Bruce knows what that pedal felt like.
I use the "tenths" terminology as to the car's ability, not the driver. A novice may only be driving the car to half its potential where a more experienced driver can get "more" out of the car. That is why I stated earlier that I do not think this particular NSX was a "good" learning tool for someone with absolutely no track experience. I see these guys who go out one or two days, get passed by miatas, and think they need to boost their NSX because it is too slow. Everyone wants to modify the car before they modify themselves as a driver. Putting aside the accident for a moment, a 500hp NSX on street tires is not a car I would recommend any first timer drive. Even at slower speeds he spun it himself the day before when he got on the gas too hard after tracking out of a left hander. (I was standing at the corner and photographed it happening)
But then again, Coz, you're the expert on these things so I guess I should defer to you since you have the answers without even needing to be there.............:wink:
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I'm curious if Bruce tried to slow the car down with the emergency brake when he realized or thought he had no brakes, its independent from the hydraulic brake system.
Been there and done that trying to slow the car down.
Been there and done that trying to slow the car down.
Thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious.
Once again, there were no reports from any track worker/observer/passenger that Bruce was driving "irresponsibly" on the track. A highly experienced NSX tracker/instructor stated the brakes failed and he took emergency action to save their lives. Absent reports from anyone else that his driving was "irresponsible", I will accept that description. I also find it hard to believe that he "boiled the brakes" while driving for just a short portion of one session when the incident occurred (I can't recall how many laps into the session he was when it happened). That shouldn't happen with properly bled lines and fresh fluid in a car being driven in a novice session at this track before the instructor takes it out for a few laps.
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My understanding is he used the e brake and then took the car early into the corner to scrub speed while trying to get an angle that would not involve a direct head on impact with the wall at the end of the front straight. He did manage to scrub quite a bit off considering the speeds he, and even novices, would have been doing at the end of that straight and that is why they both walked away uninjured.
Actually Bob, I agree with most everything you've said here, imagine that ;-)
Absolutely, a high HP car is not something to learn in. In fact its nothing more than a crash waiting to happen, and most certainly it will.
If you can't control a low HP car, you certainly cannot control a HP car.
Everybody spins, its a fact of track life and learning.
I will never be the expert you are Bob at anything and everything.
But I will certainly keep trying
Its all opinions and speculations as to what happen and why. But the fact remains, who in the right mind pushes a car that hard that doesn't belong to them and they have no seat time in.
Any way you cut it, it's irresponsible and not what good instructors do in someone else's car. Thats all I'm saying.
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Well done at that point for sure. Quick thinking and well executed. Because one thing for sure, it could have ended up a lot worse. That sh*t when it happens is some seriously scary stuff.
Absolutely, a high HP car is not something to learn in. In fact its nothing more than a crash waiting to happen, and most certainly it will.
If you can't control a low HP car, you certainly cannot control a HP car.
Everybody spins, its a fact of track life and learning.
I will never be the expert you are Bob at anything and everything.
But I will certainly keep trying
Its all opinions and speculations as to what happen and why. But the fact remains, who in the right mind pushes a car that hard that doesn't belong to them and they have no seat time in.
Any way you cut it, it's irresponsible and not what good instructors do in someone else's car. Thats all I'm saying.
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Well done at that point for sure. Quick thinking and well executed. Because one thing for sure, it could have ended up a lot worse. That sh*t when it happens is some seriously scary stuff.
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I will agree on opinions/speculation but let's take this scenario which is partially what happened at a prior event but a novice student was driving:
Hose blows coming out of an off camber left hander. Coolant spews out onto rear tires (and track). Student spins and hits inside armco due to coolant. Hoses hadn't been checked in quite some time prior to event and student was novice so didn't really think of that as a potential for disaster. No warning before hose gave way and not many drivers could have caught it mid-spin in an off camber left hander.
What if the instructor was driving the student's car at "novice speeds" and hit same inside armco? Should the instructor pay for that damage?
