KW V3 arriving for the NSX

[goldNSX]

But they *do* seem longer than OEM, which would mean a difficult installation. I'll keep a lookout for more info here (I probably won't have time to install until late this month) and probably give a call to KW before I actually begin.

Please do some measurement before you install them. If they're even longer than OEM it'll be a two men job or else a nightmare. There's no need to have longer struts than OEM IMO.

Interesting thing about the installation manual which says to keep an eye on the distance of the strut to the wheel on the front? Why this? I don't see a reason.

 

[Olyar15]

Can't you just shorten these coilovers to the minimum height, then re-adjust the height once they are in? Or are you saying that even at the minimum height, it is still longer than the stock dampers?

 

[goldNSX]

Can't you just shorten these coilovers to the minimum height, then re-adjust the height once they are in? Or are you saying that even at the minimum height, it is still longer than the stock dampers?

The length of these coilovers is given by the length of the shock regardless of the position of the lower spring plates. A rebound of the shock would help 'shortening' the shock.

 

[omega2]

I also noticed the KW dampers were longer than the OEM. What is the exact concern regarding the longer KW dampers? Is it just difficulty of installation? Is it going to impair functionality?

 

[MikeC_587]

Suspension 101:

I have three questions regarding what some have said that the KW coilovers appear to be longer than OEM.

1) Other than installation difficulty, is there any other issues with a longer shock body? Would the shock body hit any parts where the shock is located whether the NSX is on the ground or raised by a lift or floor jack? I presume with a longer shock body there would be more adjustments in raising or lowering the NSX?

2) If the extra length was by design, did KW do this to hold more oil? If that is the case, what advantage would there be?

3) If someone was to take a measurement of the KW's would they have to include the hats or would the measurement be, what comes from KW out of the box? Would it matter or make a difference either way?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[sicarius82]

Mike,

If you get the KW's, can I be first in line for your JRZ?????????

 

[enkrypt3d]

Yes the spring rates are 350/350 front/rear. If you take the motion ratio into account, the rear has a higher wheel rate than the front (due to the car's 40/60 weight distribution). These rates were chosen through their extensive testing on the 7post rig to match the NSX's specific ride frequency, roll centers, and chassis dynamics.

The suspension design dictates the true wheel-rates (which is what matters). FYI - a similar control-arm style car: Ford GT KW uses 286/400lb springs (the Ford GT weighs 3,400lbs - a few hundred more than the NSX). Read my earlier posts in regards to grip level - spring rate relationship.

The external reservoir on other KW Variant 3 applications were necessary for more volume in shorter damper applications. None of the adjustments are made on the reservoir on any Variant 3 application. Some BMW, MR2 and other applications have a long enough shock body to not need an external reservoir (like the NSX).

Compression is adjusted on the bottom of the damper by clicks/"sweeps". The rebound is on top and adjusted by clicks.

Sounds pretty interesting - the thing I don't like about my TEIN RE's is when I am accelerating hard, over a bumpy road, I get these jolts of power one after the other as if the car is trying to get settled then as soon as it is, the car takes off like a rocket... Should I tighten up the dampers more? I am at 8 in the rear and 12 in the front (clicks from full soft)... let me know what u think. thx

 

[CL65 Captain]

Sounds pretty interesting - the thing I don't like about my TEIN RE's is when I am accelerating hard, over a bumpy road, I get these jolts of power one after the other as if the car is trying to get settled then as soon as it is, the car takes off like a rocket... Should I tighten up the dampers more? I am at 8 in the rear and 12 in the front (clicks from full soft)... let me know what u think. thx

The car is skipping..... too MUCH compression. Soften the damper.

Billy, maybe it time for a tutorial on Prime on the basics of suspension setup. :wink:

 

[stuntman]

The car is skipping..... too MUCH compression. Soften the damper.

That is assuming the Tein is compression adjustable (or compression and rebound are tied together in the Tein valving).

Billy, maybe it time for a tutorial on Prime on the basics of suspension setup. :wink:

Haha, but is it worth it?

 

[enkrypt3d]

That is assuming the Tein is compression adjustable (or compression and rebound are tied together in the Tein valving).

Haha, but is it worth it?

Haha I think I have it setup pretty well but I don't claim to be an expert...

The TEIN RE's are 16 way adjustable on the dampers and the pre-load on the springs are also adjustable separate from the ride height. I read the manual and TEIN only recommends setting the dampers between 8-16 (middle to full stiff)... so any softer will make the car bouncy on the freeways which I hate and it seems unsafe.... sorry to take this thread off topic! :redface:

Compression and rebound are linked its not a separate adjustment unfortunately......

 

[stuntman]

Haha I think I have it setup pretty well but I don't claim to be an expert...

The TEIN RE's are 16 way adjustable on the dampers and the pre-load on the springs are also adjustable separate from the ride height. I read the manual and TEIN only recommends setting the dampers between 8-16 (middle to full stiff)... so any softer will make the car bouncy on the freeways which I hate and it seems unsafe.... sorry to take this thread off topic! :redface:

Compression and rebound are linked its not a separate adjustment unfortunately......

I've never been a fan of the 16-"Way", 12-"way", 32-"way" nomenclature. Primarily because most race dampers refer to their adjustments as "double-adjustable/2-way", "3-way", and "4-way" adjustable dampers. IMO it should be "16-position" adjustable. But I digress...

I also hate the lack of understanding in regards to what "pre-load" does, and the confusion it has brought the aftermarket community because lack of understanding. CL65Captain: I guess I might be worth it


When you soften the suspension, it feels "bouncy" because the lack of damping/valving to control the spring causes the car to 'ride on the spring' and oscillate without being controlled (damped). This difficulty to find the right balance of comfort without being under-damped is common for many coilovers from Asia. This is one reason higher end coilovers: HKS, KW, JRZ/Moton, Bilstein (coilovers) have been touted as so much better, because the spring rate and valving are better matched and higher quality to make for a better ride quality.

Try stiffening your dampers to 10-12 in the rear and see if the 'bouncyness' goes away. It might be slightly more harsh, but a better compromise. When I had Tein Flexes, I opted to go lower than their recommendation to say 4-6 clicks from full soft and found the compromise of a bouncier, but less harsh ride a better choice.

You could change the spring rates by either going softer and or just changing the springs to Swift Springs. The higher quality spring actually greatly improves ride quality when retrofitted onto coilovers like Tein.

0.02

 

[enkrypt3d]

I've never been a fan of the 16-"Way", 12-"way", 32-"way" nomenclature. Primarily because most race dampers refer to their adjustments as "double-adjustable/2-way", "3-way", and "4-way" adjustable dampers. IMO it should be "16-position" adjustable. But I digress...

I also hate the lack of understanding in regards to what "pre-load" does, and the confusion it has brought the aftermarket community because lack of understanding. CL65Captain: I guess I might be worth it


When you soften the suspension, it feels "bouncy" because the lack of damping/valving to control the spring causes the car to 'ride on the spring' and oscillate without being controlled (damped). This difficulty to find the right balance of comfort without being under-damped is common for many coilovers from Asia. This is one reason higher end coilovers: HKS, KW, JRZ/Moton, Bilstein (coilovers) have been touted as so much better, because the spring rate and valving are better matched and higher quality to make for a better ride quality.

Try stiffening your dampers to 10-12 in the rear and see if the 'bouncyness' goes away. It might be slightly more harsh, but a better compromise. When I had Tein Flexes, I opted to go lower than their recommendation to say 4-6 clicks from full soft and found the compromise of a bouncier, but less harsh ride a better choice.

You could change the spring rates by either going softer and or just changing the springs to Swift Springs. The higher quality spring actually greatly improves ride quality when retrofitted onto coilovers like Tein.

0.02

Always one to turn a suspension discussion into a philosophical one jk

Yea I think the bouncy feeling is just unsettling to me... Whatever terminology you want to use, I never go "below" 8 clicks from full soft... it does not feel safe at all. And yea I might end up just splurging on some more advanced suspension with more control for setting damper / rebound settings... But is it really worth it?

What spring rates are the swift springs? I bought these RE's used... is it worth having them rebuilt or re-valved to a different rate? And no I'm not the n00b you all think I am when it comes to suspension. :tongue: But then again, not all of us are experts. I'm a computer engineer so I'm sure I could show u a few things about that if you want me to school you.

 

[stuntman]

Always one to turn a suspension discussion into a philosophical one jk

Yea I think the bouncy feeling is just unsettling to me... Whatever terminology you want to use, I never go "below" 8 clicks from full soft... it does not feel safe at all. And yea I might end up just splurging on some more advanced suspension with more control for setting damper / rebound settings... But is it really worth it?

What spring rates are the swift springs? I bought these RE's used... is it worth having them rebuilt or re-valved to a different rate? And no I'm not the n00b you all think I am when it comes to suspension. :tongue: But then again, not all of us are experts. I'm a computer engineer so I'm sure I could show u a few things about that if you want me to school you.

I don't think revalving your dampers is worth it unless you completely change the internals because its the design that's the limitation since you can already adjust your dampers from under-damped (bouncy) to overdamped (harsh). Swift springs can be ordered in any spring rate -which is why I said you could keep the same rates that you currently have, or get softer rates, either of which will improve ride quality over the Tein springs, even with the same shock settings. Is changing springs or getting completely new dampers worth it? Unlike most people who are egar to tell you what you need, it truly is a pesonal preference. I have no problem with running REs at less than 8 clicks, its unsettling and not confidence inspiring for you, does that mean one of us is wrong? -no, its the differences in ourindividual expeiences, personal preferences, and backgrounds.

I personally think the Tein REs are pretty good, I liked them more than my old Flexes. But it might be worth it for you to spend ~$400 on Swift springs, replace the suspension, or be happy with how the REs are.

-take that for philosophy. And I'd be more than happy to have you 'school' me on how to fix my d@mn computer! Haha

 

[02#154]

I called KW yesterday regarding some unrelated things and while on the phone I asked about the "too long" issue. The guy told me that they haven't yet heard anything about this supposed issue.

One thing that I forgot to ask him about and that I hope someone here knows the answer to: what is the danger in having a strut assembly that's too long? I assume that it puts the piston rod into a range where it was not designed to work but I am not sure what the ramifications may be about that. Anyone know?

J

 

[Mac Attack]

I wouldn't be worried, I'm sure Billy has higher contacts and it just hasn't worked it's way down to the phone rep. yet :wink:

Shock dampening characteristics should be identical, whether you perturb the shaft when it is almost fully extended or almost fully inserted.

Really the only issue with a long body (besides installation) is if you'll have enough stroke (or if it'll be riding on the bumpstops if so equipped).

I've bit my tongue on this weird issue out of respect for those who have purchased these dampeners and because I don't know whether it is a design flaw or not. I hope you guys get this resolved quickly and likewise refrain from bashing off-brand coilovers in the future!

Dave

 

[goldNSX]

We can discuss the length-issue (if there is any at all) to the full extend but it won't bring us further anymore. :wink: A simple measurement of the length in comparison to stock struts will tell us if they're longer or shorter than OEM. The only thing we can say now is that with equal or longer than OEM struts it will be no fun mounting them.

 

[omega2]

The KW are longer than OEM. I didn't measure the two, since I didn't really think it was an issue at the time. That being said, my car is at Autowave and awaiting installation so I let everyone know once it's done. I don't think the length will be a problem, since KW had to test the kit on an NSX to start with.

 

[02#154]

I can't imagine that the length of the KW strut assemblies could be bad besides the fact that it would make for a more difficult installation versus a shorter assembly. My question, though, is why KW would make their product in such a way. I assume they have a reason?

Anyway, I went out to the garage and measured the assembled KWs. The fronts were 20.5" and the rears are 19.75". This was measured from roughly the center of the hole at the bottom of the strut to the top of the upper mount. This is not exact, but should be within about +/- .25". If someone has an OEM set laying around and can take a quick and dirty measurement then we'll know for sure.

But you know, the more I think about it, the more I think that maybe they're pretty close to OEM length. At least maybe. I've been working with and handling so many coilovers that were overall shorter that perhaps my perception is askew. It's been so long since I've held or even seen an OEM strut assembly.

I'm still too sore to install them, so I won't know how difficult it is for a while. omega2, can you do us all a favor and ask your installer at Autowave how difficult the installation was?

J

 

[greenberet]

If someone has an OEM set laying around and can take a quick and dirty measurement then we'll know for sure.

I have an OEM set laying around.

Front shock absorber:
39.7 cm (15 ⅝ inches) from the top of the body to the middle of the bottom eye
58.9 cm (23 3/16 inches) from the top of the rod that sticks out of the body to the middle of the bottom eye

Rear shock absorber:
35.0 cm (13 ¾ inches) from the top of the body to the middle of the bottom eye
60.3 cm (23 ¾ inches) from the top of the rod that sticks out of the body to the middle of the bottom eye

Edit: those are the measurements of just the shock absorbers by themselves - without the springs, mounting bases, etc. So maybe those measurements don't help much.

 

[02#154]

So, I just got finished cleaning the tools and putting them away.

I feel like chicken little :redface:. The installation was easy-peezy / snip-snap / simple-simon. I still don't know how the length of the units compares to OEM but the KWs went in, well, as described above

I still have to shower before I take her out for a spin. I'll report my initial feedback later today if I find time (and remember to).

Oh, and after inspecting the Teins that I took out, it looks like the top mounts from that set would would work with the KWs. If I don't find a buyer for my Teins I might someday try using them. But then again, I might find I like the OEM top mounts with the KWs, so who knows. Plus I'm lazy, so once I'm done I find it hard to become motivated to do the same work over again. :tongue:

J

 

[WingZ]

So, I just got finished cleaning the tools and putting them away.

I feel like chicken little :redface:. The installation was easy-peezy / snip-snap / simple-simon. I still don't know how the length of the units compares to OEM but the KWs went in, well, as described above

I still have to shower before I take her out for a spin. I'll report my initial feedback later today if I find time (and remember to).

Oh, and after inspecting the Teins that I took out, it looks like the top mounts from that set would would work with the KWs. If I don't find a buyer for my Teins I might someday try using them. But then again, I might find I like the OEM top mounts with the KWs, so who knows. Plus I'm lazy, so once I'm done I find it hard to become motivated to do the same work over again. :tongue:

J

Awesome. Yeah NSX suspension swap is pretty hassle free. Can't wait for your feedback.

 

[goldNSX]

Could anybody confirm the following: A guy in Austria did mount them and found out that in the front you hardly can't go lower than -40 mm because the strut would touch the upper suspension arm while the wheel is off the ground. See pic #2 in this thread on my forum: http://www.honda-nsx.ch/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98

 

[02#154]

Could anybody confirm the following: A guy in Austria did mount them and found out that in the front you hardly can't go lower than -40 mm because the strut would touch the upper suspension arm while the wheel is off the ground. See pic #2 in this thread on my forum: http://www.honda-nsx.ch/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98

Bad link?

I don't know the amount I lowered my car but the measurement in front from about the center of the wheel to the edge of the fender (not the fender liner) is about 13". Is that 40mm lower than stock? I don't know. There may be a few more mm of adjustment before actual contact.

The adjustable perch *does* sit very close to the suspension arm at full droop, limiting the amount of lowering. I thought about that, and though I don't need/want to go any lower in front, if I were to do it I'd buy a shorter helper spring. Any length you reduce in the helper spring will translate to that amount of added lowering adjustment. Just be sure to not go too short or else the purpose of the spring will be lost.

J

 

[omega2]

You beat me to it. I am still waiting on some bushings and toe links. Glad to hear your suspension went in ok.

 

[goldNSX]

I don't know the amount I lowered my car but the measurement in front from about the center of the wheel to the edge of the fender (not the fender liner) is about 13". Is that 40mm lower than stock? I don't know. There may be a few more mm of adjustment before actual contact.

13'' is about 33 cm which is within a good range. I'm currently driving with 33.5 cm in the front which is perfect for me. :wink:

So I'm eagerly waiting for the driving experiences.