How you would describe the street ride compared to JRZ's? Do you need to supply your OEM top hats/ pillow mounts? Thanks. Very interested when I have the $$.
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KW V3 arriving for the NSX
- Thread starter stuntman
- Start date
I checked out the installation manual and saw that these KWs use the OEM upper mounts. So I called KW and they do not make an optional upper mount for the NSX. Even if they did, he said the ones they sell for other cars list for about $400 per corner!
I just ordered some new OEM upper mounts and associated hardware:smile:
:wink:
They said that there aren't any in the USA but that there was a "low quantity" on the shelf in Germany.:biggrin:
J
I just ordered some new OEM upper mounts and associated hardware:smile:
:wink:They said that there aren't any in the USA but that there was a "low quantity" on the shelf in Germany.:biggrin:
J
Since you didn't state the spring rates for the JRZ RS coilover (since you can order anything you want), it makes it a bit harder/open ended question to answer. Spring rate choice greatly affects the dynamics of the chassis as well as the ride quality on the street (Damper even more so to control the spring). JRZ/Moton has very good and a broad valving range. Due to their high quality valving, they can better control higher spring rates than many other less expensive, less technologically advanced brands.
I have driven 1000/800lb springs (which seems to be the 'standard' for people who track their NSXs) on the street an the ride quality was better than some aftermarket coilovers with softer spring rates. The downside to higher rates is (in general) is slightly less grip, less compliancy and cornering suspension travel. **In the near future, FXMD should post videos of what the wheel/suspension is doing of the NSX platform for various spring rates/dampers. I already have data/video of 1000/800lb rates on Penskes (very interesting to watch).
The JRZ RS is double adjustable (highspeed compression and rebound). Each click on the RS is = to two clicks on JRZ/Moton's 3-way adjustable racing dampers. So each click is a much bigger jump in damping which enables a very broad tuning window -which can be both good and bad.
Many people are eager to throw huge spring rates at their cars because 'racecars are stiff'. Their's a lot more to it than that. Like KW's philosophy, many of the racing teams i've driven for try to use softer rather than heavier spring rates (including our Unlimited NSX which has softer rates than 1000/800, and more power/grip than most who track their cars).
I think JRZ/Motons offer great products and have tons of racing experience with them (from our Unlimited NSX to many Grand Am racecars).
If you are interested in further discussing the pros and cons of JRZ, KW, any other brand - as well as more in depth on spring rates and what would best fit your intended application, feel free to shoot me an email at [email protected]
I will be posting a press release about FX Motorsports Development and the services they provide soon - which further explains/expands on the prior paragraph.
Trust me, I understand. I had aftermarket coilovers on my personal NSX as well and also had to source a used set of OEM upper mounts for my V3s. Irony, haha.I checked out the installation manual and saw that these KWs use the OEM upper mounts. So I called KW and they do not make an optional upper mount for the NSX. Even if they did, he said the ones they sell for other cars list for about $400 per corner!
I just ordered some new OEM upper mounts and associated hardware:smile:
They said that there aren't any in the USA but that there was a "low quantity" on the shelf in Germany.:biggrin:
J
Yes, all KW Variant 3's utilize the OEM upper mounts. The OEM upper mount have a rubber insert to better damp noises/unwanted vibrations from the suspension. KW has a purple adapter which inserts into the OEM upper mount between the rubber mount and the new inner diameter of the KW spring. This offers a better ride quality than a harsh pillowball mount. The NSX's rigid chassis does handle the abuse of pillowball mounts well and resists chassis flex/creaking better than many cars on the market.
It is also true that KW does not have plans to make a clubsport coilover for the NSX. They do have some spare pillowball upper mounts left over from the 3-way racing kits in Germany.
Due to the cost of having one-off/low quantity pillowball upper mounts made for the NSX by KW, FX Motorsports Development is going to design their own pillowball upper mounts for the NSX platform in the near future - with some additional ideas that we want to apply.
In the meantime, you either need to use the OEM top hats (which isn't a problem if you still have the stock suspension), or you could source a pillowball top mount from Tein for ~$350 for all four. We should be able to offer the Tein pillowball top mounts shortly.
-Billy
Now THAT is a beautiful machine! Additional photos available?
Firts of all, I will say KW's are nice and an excellent choice in the $2500 range. That's what I figured the price would be earlier.
But, there are some misconceptions here on the R&D that should be clarified since they are being touted as beneficial in dampening tuning.
4 and 7 post shaker rigs are mostly used to fine tune dampener tuning in conjunction with tires. Hence my previous posts earlier in this thread asking that they use a "representative NSX" in their testing. Because of the wide range of sidewall tire stiffnesses out there (especially for your street performance tires that you buy from tirerack or wherever), it is really a stretch to say that they have been specifically tuned for our cars. Obviously, from the pictures, this KW NSX is modified far beyond most owners vehicles here, and the tires different as well. Furthermore, it is lowered quite a bit which will change the roll center, motion ratios, etc from a normal street car which can't be measured on a shaker rig (more on that below). Shaker rigs are usually used to tune AN INDIVIDUAL VEHICLE. But then, for professional race teams, it is a combination of lab testing and real-world driver preferences for fine-tuning.
When lowering more than the ride height of an NSX-R, you really start to change the roll center, motion ratios, etc. That's why professionals would evaluate these changes on a Kinematics and Compliance machine (even more high-tech and better than a shaker rig that is touted here). A shaker rig just measures vertical loads. A K&C machine does vertical AND lateral, helping you analyze roll, squat, etc. For a basically non-modified NSX suspension geometry, you don't want to lower the car much for track conditions in fear of throwing everything off in trade for a lower center of gravity. Honda knows this, and it is also why I've only lowered my car about 3/4". Obviously not good for looks, but it's good for ride/handling. The KW NSX looks pretty low, unless it has been preloaded by one of the hydraulic posts in that picture
That being said, it is however, nice to see that KW does their homework and puts some engineering into their products :smile:
Dampening characteristics and dyno plots are very hyped up by people that usually have no idea of what they are talking about - just repeating something they've heard on the web. Not saying that's the case here of course. Penske has the most concise explanation of dampening, tuning, shim stack physical design and their predicted dampening curves, and nice exploded views of how their shocks are assembled that I have seen in one place. You can find it for free on their website (it's a .pdf) and do some good reading. I highly recommend it :wink:
My $0.02
Dave
But, there are some misconceptions here on the R&D that should be clarified since they are being touted as beneficial in dampening tuning.
4 and 7 post shaker rigs are mostly used to fine tune dampener tuning in conjunction with tires. Hence my previous posts earlier in this thread asking that they use a "representative NSX" in their testing. Because of the wide range of sidewall tire stiffnesses out there (especially for your street performance tires that you buy from tirerack or wherever), it is really a stretch to say that they have been specifically tuned for our cars. Obviously, from the pictures, this KW NSX is modified far beyond most owners vehicles here, and the tires different as well. Furthermore, it is lowered quite a bit which will change the roll center, motion ratios, etc from a normal street car which can't be measured on a shaker rig (more on that below). Shaker rigs are usually used to tune AN INDIVIDUAL VEHICLE. But then, for professional race teams, it is a combination of lab testing and real-world driver preferences for fine-tuning.
When lowering more than the ride height of an NSX-R, you really start to change the roll center, motion ratios, etc. That's why professionals would evaluate these changes on a Kinematics and Compliance machine (even more high-tech and better than a shaker rig that is touted here). A shaker rig just measures vertical loads. A K&C machine does vertical AND lateral, helping you analyze roll, squat, etc. For a basically non-modified NSX suspension geometry, you don't want to lower the car much for track conditions in fear of throwing everything off in trade for a lower center of gravity. Honda knows this, and it is also why I've only lowered my car about 3/4". Obviously not good for looks, but it's good for ride/handling. The KW NSX looks pretty low, unless it has been preloaded by one of the hydraulic posts in that picture
That being said, it is however, nice to see that KW does their homework and puts some engineering into their products :smile:
Dampening characteristics and dyno plots are very hyped up by people that usually have no idea of what they are talking about - just repeating something they've heard on the web. Not saying that's the case here of course. Penske has the most concise explanation of dampening, tuning, shim stack physical design and their predicted dampening curves, and nice exploded views of how their shocks are assembled that I have seen in one place. You can find it for free on their website (it's a .pdf) and do some good reading. I highly recommend it :wink:
My $0.02
Dave
From KW:
Variant 3 - Race technology for the road.
The Variants 3 suspension is designed for the street and it is by no means a “race suspension”. The V3 is tuned for sporty/aggressive driving, not to win the 24 hours of Nurburgring. If you want a race suspension buy a KW 2-way or 3-way race damper.
It is correct that a 7 Post rig is most useful to fine tune a specific race car, but that’s not to say that the information gathered from putting several NSXs, including race cars and street cars, on the rig can not be extrapolated to be used to tune a “general” suspension. Therefore they have been specifically tuned for “your cars”.
Secondly, though a 4 post rig cannot simulate roll, squat, aerodynamic loading, breaking etc. a 7 post can. 4 of the 7 posts are used to simulate road dynamics i.e. bumps etc. by generating forces at the tire contact patches. These are also used to characterize the suspension by exciting the 4 wheel patches with consistent oscillation tests or by collected data, i.e. suspension and vehicle data collected by data accusation systems. The other 3 post add forces to the car i.e. they are connected to the sprung mass (the car), to simulate aerodynamic or weight transfer of the car under braking, acceleration and cornering. So a 7 post rig does simulate lateral loads. So again this information is collected and analyzed to design to fine tune “specific” race car and extrapolated to design a street suspension.
Now one might ask how could you say its designed for “my Car”? Well yes every car is different, every car is tuned differently, but that is why the coilovers have independently adjustable compression and rebound. The adjustability range of KW shocks is very large.
In combination to the 7 post shaker rig we also use an electro magnetic linear shock dyno to design, simulate and test shocks. It is a shock dyno test rig that uses a variable stroke to test suspensions i.e. acquired data can be used to simulate shock movement on race tracks etc. So the data collected on the 7 post can be taking into a specialized area by using the shock dyno to develop and simulate the shock on its own. Then all that data collected can be used to design the final shim set and testing can be done all over again in the lab and then the track and/or street.
Now to comment about over lowering the car, anyone who has wanted to “slam” their car and bought a KW suspension (and actually read our recommended lowering range) has been disappointed due to our modest lowering compared to other companies. Again since this is a street suspension people want to lower their vehicles for looks hence the 50mm lowering (2 inches, which is not crazy) but that range starts at 20mm lowering (about ¾ inch) If we only offered a suspension so people could lower their cars ¾ of an inch I think we would be limiting out market to very few people.
Our ride quality at lowest position and highest position is perfectly comfortable and the shock has been designed with these into account (hence the recommended ranged). When I say this, a minimum travel range has been implemented for our maximum lowering and a minimum droop has been implemented into our minimum lowering. This insures ride quality and safety of the user.
As for handling, the people who have used our suspensions and the races that we have won in can speak for itself.
Also if you want to see exploded view of our valves look in the catalogue for V3 valves and race catalogue for 2 way and 3 way race valves.
I hope this helps.
Variant 3 - Race technology for the road.
The Variants 3 suspension is designed for the street and it is by no means a “race suspension”. The V3 is tuned for sporty/aggressive driving, not to win the 24 hours of Nurburgring. If you want a race suspension buy a KW 2-way or 3-way race damper.
It is correct that a 7 Post rig is most useful to fine tune a specific race car, but that’s not to say that the information gathered from putting several NSXs, including race cars and street cars, on the rig can not be extrapolated to be used to tune a “general” suspension. Therefore they have been specifically tuned for “your cars”.
Secondly, though a 4 post rig cannot simulate roll, squat, aerodynamic loading, breaking etc. a 7 post can. 4 of the 7 posts are used to simulate road dynamics i.e. bumps etc. by generating forces at the tire contact patches. These are also used to characterize the suspension by exciting the 4 wheel patches with consistent oscillation tests or by collected data, i.e. suspension and vehicle data collected by data accusation systems. The other 3 post add forces to the car i.e. they are connected to the sprung mass (the car), to simulate aerodynamic or weight transfer of the car under braking, acceleration and cornering. So a 7 post rig does simulate lateral loads. So again this information is collected and analyzed to design to fine tune “specific” race car and extrapolated to design a street suspension.
Now one might ask how could you say its designed for “my Car”? Well yes every car is different, every car is tuned differently, but that is why the coilovers have independently adjustable compression and rebound. The adjustability range of KW shocks is very large.
In combination to the 7 post shaker rig we also use an electro magnetic linear shock dyno to design, simulate and test shocks. It is a shock dyno test rig that uses a variable stroke to test suspensions i.e. acquired data can be used to simulate shock movement on race tracks etc. So the data collected on the 7 post can be taking into a specialized area by using the shock dyno to develop and simulate the shock on its own. Then all that data collected can be used to design the final shim set and testing can be done all over again in the lab and then the track and/or street.
Now to comment about over lowering the car, anyone who has wanted to “slam” their car and bought a KW suspension (and actually read our recommended lowering range) has been disappointed due to our modest lowering compared to other companies. Again since this is a street suspension people want to lower their vehicles for looks hence the 50mm lowering (2 inches, which is not crazy) but that range starts at 20mm lowering (about ¾ inch) If we only offered a suspension so people could lower their cars ¾ of an inch I think we would be limiting out market to very few people.
Our ride quality at lowest position and highest position is perfectly comfortable and the shock has been designed with these into account (hence the recommended ranged). When I say this, a minimum travel range has been implemented for our maximum lowering and a minimum droop has been implemented into our minimum lowering. This insures ride quality and safety of the user.
As for handling, the people who have used our suspensions and the races that we have won in can speak for itself.
Also if you want to see exploded view of our valves look in the catalogue for V3 valves and race catalogue for 2 way and 3 way race valves.
I hope this helps.
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Quite frankly, the amount of testing KW has put into this suspension is rivaled only by factory Honda and suspensions designed and tuned for specific multi million dollar race teams. It's unusual for this amount for R&D, testing, and qualification to happen to any suspension in this dollar range, let alone for such a limited production car as the NSX. Congratulations to KW for the release of this suspension.
Cheers,
-- Chris
Cheers,
-- Chris
Definitely. I would like to drive on an NSX fitted with them someday. For them to do this a few $k under the "really good products" is quite a testament. If I were to spend just over $3k on coilovers, these would be it!
I would venture to say that 90% of JDM dampeners just have generic low and high-speed valving (the orifice shapes are identical between product lines - they only adjust the dampening with varying orifice areas for various vehicles).
But, because trial-and-error real-life testing is expensive, I have a feeling KW engineers and technicians probably had a good idea of what shim design they were going to use and just went with it (via confirmatory testing of course). I would be surprised if there was actually any iteration :wink:
BTW - I've helped on the software side on a K&C design and hold a few patents on fuzzy-logic/ai controlled active suspension systems. I've gone after a major German automotive manufacturer when they wanted to introduce this technology in the US for patent infringement
I'm an engineer so naturally I just ask questions - please don't feel I'm picking on this product. In fact - this is the first coilover thread I've run across here that has some kind of meaningful discussion on how appropriate this coilover is for our vehicles! Thanks Billy and KW!Dave
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Is there any reason why they don't offer shock body adjustment for better travel?
I received my V3s just before the weekend and put them together with new OEM hardware. These things are SUPER long! Are they longer than OEM? If so, it's going to be an ordeal to get them installed...:frown:
J
J
The dameprs are designed with the helper spring which allows for much more droop travel than most coilover options. This greatly improves ride quality and keeps the tires on the ground when going over bumps/hitting apex curbing. They shouldn't be any more difficult than any other aftermarket coilover to install.
All V1-V3 kits use the same spring rates. The V3 is just as streetable since they use the same springs and valving of any other 'V' line KW damper. The V3 is very streetable and comfortable on the KW recommended 'street' setting.
FX Motorsports Development will be doing further testing for different damper setting recommendations for more aggresive street driving as well as track settings.
With our V3 experience with different platforms, we also have a good ballpark idea of where they should be set at even now. But KW's recommended settings in the installation manual are a VERY comfortable and compliant.
At the moment, KW does not plan on making anything other than the V3 and triple-adjustable race applications for the NSX.
FX Motorsports Development will be testing an NSX-R spring package on the V3 (by changing the front springs to the '92 NSX-R spec since the rears are the same) and back to back the stock V3 vs. NSX-R spring package on the track.
Stay tuned!
Stay tuned!
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For what it's worth.... I am running the early NSX-R spec springs with my JRZs now. I first ran 600/500 and now am running 450/350. Track season here doesn't open until mid April, but I can say the 450/350 is much more comfortable over sharp bumps. If it does well on the track, I probably won't go back to the 600/500 as the tradeoff is worth it on the street.
You've been all over the place!
1000/800?
1000/600
800/600
and now:
600/500
450/350
The 450/350 is one of the setups i'm going to test with the KWs, as well as possibly the 580/450 rates of the '02 NSX-R.
450/350 has pretty soft wheel rates, it dosn't suprise me that it's much more compliant than the 600/500 or 800/600 setups.
A lot comes down to the goals in terms of roll stiffness, ride quality, tire compound & width, and operating condition (mainly street or track) which will drive the best choice toward one application over the other.
Yep, been there and done that, want to buy some springs? :biggrin: I haven't had a chance to take it to the track yet, but it seems that with good dampers like JRZ, Moton, KW, etc that you can use compression to stiffen it up and get a good ride and good handling with the lower spring rates. Can't wait to hit the track and see how it does.
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We going to pump....YOU UP!
Thx for doing the conversion on the chart, was going to do it for myself.
I didn't weigh mine, but I did notice the UPS tracking number read 50 lbs for the package. That weight includes the parts plus the box and packing material. I also had a box of OEM suspension that was notably heavier than the KW parts. Sorry if that is vague, I wasn't focusing on the weight issue at the time.
Have you tried to install yet? I heard they ARE too long and will be redesigned. Might want to hang onto them and give KW a call...
No, I haven't had the time to install yet. But they *do* seem longer than OEM, which would mean a difficult installation. I'll keep a lookout for more info here (I probably won't have time to install until late this month) and probably give a call to KW before I actually begin.
Not really related, but kinda: a friend of mine just had some JRZs installed and his installer said they were a bear to get in because they seemed to be longer than OEM. This couldn't be confirmed because an OEM set wasn't available to compare.
Anyone here who has an OEM assebly they can measure (front and rear) and post here?
J
KW is looking into it...
I'll keep you guys posted.
I'll keep you guys posted.
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