Image of NSX or Japan car

[chinaboy]

I read something very interesting in Motorcyclist magazine (7/2004)

DUCATI (Italy) is owned by a Texas company (USA)
MERCEDES-BENZ does not make in Germany anymore
CHEVROLET IMPALAS (USA) is actually made in Canada
PORSCHES (Germany) is made in Finland
APRILIAS (Italy) uses engines made in Austria, East Europe
TOYOTA (Japan) joins NASCAR racing
MINI (UK) now is owned by BMW (Germany)
LAND ROVERS (UK) was using Buick engine (USA), now it uses engine provided by BMW (Germany)
JAGUAR (UK) belongs to FORD (USA)
SAAB (Swden) owned by GM (USA)
JEEP (USA) was once helping to win the WWII against Germany, now controlled by a Germany motor giant (DAIMLER - CHRYSLER)
Nissan (Japan) now is managed by a French

So, why people still judge cars by brand name??
it is a "mental" thing

it is not where it is made, it is something that the brand can give to the person.

for example,
a very successful story is HARLEY DAVIDSON
The workers of Harley Davidson bought the company from the investors when it's nearly going bankrupt...
and with the correct way of brand promotion, motorcycle owner club, many outdoor events, and build up a very successful brand image, and increase the customers' brand royalty...
now 2003, made profit of nearly US$1billion !!!
(and DUCATI is doing the same thing now, and proof once again very successful, **2004 has the DUCATI week!! 45000 bikers show up!)


Second best example,
LEXUS is the only Japan brand that is successfully to be equal social status of BMW, BENZ
HONDA's ACURA still have people think of HONDA
NISSAN's INFINITI is a failure, when comparing sales figure against LEXUS brand....
MAZDA's EUNOS is worst, it simpy dissappeared.



**from the article, it tells the reason......
the reason of LEXUS to be successful
is because since day one,
the staff and managment of the LEXUS team never thinks of themselve as TOYOTA or Japanese.
They only think of themselves as LEXUS, and they mean to make high quality sedans.

but other Japanese brands, the management failed to do this, because they keep comparing among themselves....


*****after reading this article.
I have thoughts about NSX, too

I realize that whenever I watch those car video from Japan
(Best Motoring)
the Japanese always comparing the NSX with cheaper car like RX7, Evo, WRX, Supra, 3000GT, Skyline GTR..

and then when they have a Lexus, they always compare with Benz and BMWs....
and when they compare with other Japan cars, like Nissan, the Lexus always stand out of the crown
and it is so obviously, that Lexus is no longer about Japan, in technology and in craftmanship

now I know what's wrong with this picture.


I think they should stop this treatment to NSX
they should comparing NSX with Porsche or Lotus.
and bring up the social status of NSX.

only if the Honda Japan people believe in NSX as world class sportscar, that people (customers) can stop thinking about NSX as a more expensive RX-7 or Supra.

**truely, I came in time to discuss with friends about buying a NSX, and they all say it's too expensive, tell me to get a Skyline GTR because it is cheaper and perform the same.
and the 2nd market, the NSX price has not much support in comparing with Porsche and Ferrari.


I think it is Honda itself that has done alot of wrong decision in the promotion of the NSX brand.
it should learn from Lexus to have a management that believes themselves as independent, and their only target is Porsche and Lotus, etc...

only if the makers have this strong thoughts, that the users can see their vision and support them.


I wrote this because I find it funny that someone posted a reply to saying NSX is trying to be Ferrari (the post was deleted later)

I really don't think NSX is trying to be anything else.

NSX is representing the F1 technology of Honda, and it is representing the highest craftmanship and technology from Japan, period.

 

[chinaboy]

another good example of Japan brand that go high social status is

Shiseido cosmetic company,

this is the only Japan brand that shares the same social status as the French brands,

no other Japanese brand, Taiwan brand, China brand, and Korean brand can do this yet!

 

[KulSecHskY]

I don't understand how LEXUS staff can see themselves as LEXUS only, aren't the LEXUS cars sold as TOYOTA's in Japan? Aren't they designed IN Japan under the TOYOTA emblem?

Or does Toyota have a seperate EVERYTHING for cars under the LEXUS name in the US?



IMO the only reason the NSX is not compared to the true exotics is because of power. It needs more, but then there is that unwritten restriction in Japan...

 

[chinaboy]

LEXUS is an independent develop team from Toyota (althought owned by Toyota)
the staff in LEUXS actually can be tracked back to right after WWII
the Japanese have alot of immigrant living in Europe.
it took them alot of time, and finally by the 3generations, the Euro-japanese finally have engineers who work in major Euro cooperation.
one of them is Mercede Benz.
and they study alot about the Mercede Benz cars, because that's very high standard in body structure.
in other words, it takes Toyota 50years to learn those car body technology. (not even Honda or Nissan can be as quiet as Lexus cars)

even now-a-day.
if you watch the Japanese car video (best motoring)

whenever they compare Japan sedan (expensive one) with Mercedes and BMW....

in the end, they always mention
(1)power are very good
(2)suspension is great
(3)but still, the rolling of the car body is not perfect and strong (and smooth) as the BMW (the least)

they always say this in the video, somehow the BMW and the Mercedes , the car body just does it better in S turns..etc...
just feel better someway, and the Japanese still can't do it that way (except the LEXUS)


***and yes, the LEXUS is sold under Toyota brand in Japan, but Toyota will change this in 2005, LEXUS will be LEXUS only in 2005. and there will not be an equal model under Toyota brand.

it takes Toyota so many years to make this decision because of the different culture in Japan.
and Toyota does not want Lexus to end up like Acura and Eunos and Inifiniti.....so it wants the brand to be really strong in oversea before moving it back to Japan

 

[KulSecHskY]

Ahh I see, good stuff


It would be great if Honda could make Acura a BRAND NAME, but I believe the reason the name isn't as respected is because of the Intergra and now the RSX.


Plus who cares if people think Acura/Honda isn't prestigous, the NSX is an AWESOME car. Let people think you ONLY drive an Acura, who cares?

 

[TheYellowBeast]

When I tell non-car-savvy people I have an NSX, if I am met with a blank stare, I say "It's a Japanese Porsche". Same price class, same performance class (ouch am I gonna get nailed for that? )

 

[mlambert890]

Good points above, Lexus has definitely opened up a lead over Acura and Infiniti that Honda and Nissan can probably never close. I think that ship has sailed and big kudos for Toyota to that. I personally don't like Lexus at all and don't consider it in any way equal to Mercedes Benz or BMW, but the vast majority of buyers do and that's a tremendous accomplishment (something no US car company has managed either - Lincoln and Cadillac don't cut it).

I do think where a car is manufactured can matter though! Personally, I didn't realize no Mercedes Benz were manufactured in Germany any longer! I consider "made in Germany" or "made in Japan" to be very good things (hate to say it). And I've found that cars that come out of the Japanese plants (vs the US plants of the same manufacturer) seem to have fewer gremlins. I wonder if there is any honest data on this somewhere? I've never actually looked...

 

[mlambert890]

When I tell non-car-savvy people I have an NSX, if I am met with a blank stare, I say "It's a Japanese Porsche". Same price class, same performance class (ouch am I gonna get nailed for that? )

This is a fair statement up through the 996 (the 997 opens up a lead - no surprise) comparing apples to apples and excluding the FI or purpose built 911's (Turbo, GT2, GT3).

Of course one catch is that the 911 is actually cheaper. Sure Porsche has enough options to make ANY 911 like $150k, but the BASE model is still below $70k.

You could slap together a 911 Targa with Xenons and PSM (close to the current NSX-T in features) for $78k.

So performance is about equal, but the Porsche is actually cheaper. With the 997, performance on the NSX will be lower by a little bit, but the Porsche will still be cheaper. Probably not such a good situation for Honda.

Now if Honda had done the hard work to create some of the brand power of Lexus, things might be different. Acura, however, does not have anywhere near the interest, excitement or prestige to sell a car with lower performance and higher cost than a 911 (as sales numbers prove).

 

[Brian2by2]

This is a fair statement up through the 996 (the 997 opens up a lead - no surprise) comparing apples to apples and excluding the FI or purpose built 911's (Turbo, GT2, GT3).

Of course one catch is that the 911 is actually cheaper. Sure Porsche has enough options to make ANY 911 like $150k, but the BASE model is still below $70k.

You could slap together a 911 Targa with Xenons and PSM (close to the current NSX-T in features) for $78k.

So performance is about equal, but the Porsche is actually cheaper. With the 997, performance on the NSX will be lower by a little bit, but the Porsche will still be cheaper. Probably not such a good situation for Honda.

Now if Honda had done the hard work to create some of the brand power of Lexus, things might be different. Acura, however, does not have anywhere near the interest, excitement or prestige to sell a car with lower performance and higher cost than a 911 (as sales numbers prove).

But everyone has a porsche, so I'd get confused when I walked out of Starbucks: "Which silver 911 is mine!?!?"

And to say that Lexus is the only brand that has parred with the german manufacturers and that Acura is automatically associated with Honda, while Lexus isn't with Toyota is opinion.

Whenever I see an IS300, I think "Altezza" or a ES330 I think "Camry/Avalon" and now, the SC430 I think "Solara convertible"

I would take an Acura TL over the lexus equal. I just wish they went to a RWD format.

 

[MLmotorsport]

Partially true..

Porsche in Finland... Only the Boxster is produced there, and only a PORTION of them come out of Finland. I've had a few Boxsters and trust me, it's very hard to even find out which country your Boxster was produced in. Anyway, I don't think that list of carmakers and where they are produced was saying that EVERYTHING they make comes from those countries (it'd be very wrong if that's the case). GM along with most of the American carmakers manufacture many of their cars in Mexico & Canada. VW does the same. Some Mercedes are made (read "manufactured") in Alabama. The X's & Z4's (BMW) are made in South Carolina. Anyone know where the Honda Odyssey comes from?.. not Japan. In fact the only 100% Japanese Hondas sold in the states (excluding Acura) is the S2000 and maybe the Pilot and Element (these have been added since I worked for Honda - I don't keep up on that info much anymore). You can pretty much go down the list of all car manufacturers and find that they produce or assemble something outside their country of "origin". It's becoming more common every year. But if you're going for shock value you could tell people that GM cars are made in Australia (well... just the GTO) and on and on...

 

[mlambert890]

Whenever I see an IS300, I think "Altezza" or a ES330 I think "Camry/Avalon" and now, the SC430 I think "Solara convertible"

I would take an Acura TL over the lexus equal. I just wish they went to a RWD format.

It may be opinion, but everything is opinion. At some point, you have to go for majority to make a call on stuff like this.

The fact is, the majority of people don't agree with you. The majority of people equate Lexus (for better or worse) with BMW and Mercedes. Acura isnt even remotely close in terms of brand power.

Personally, I *do* agree that these Lexus models are WAY too close to Toyota models which is why I personally don't consider Lexus as being anywhere near the same class as Mercedes or BMW (as I mentioned above), but most people don't seem to mind.

To be fair, that Solara vert is the 05 model. You should really be thinking "Lexus clone" when you see it rather than thinking "Solara clone" when you see the Lexus since the Lexus predates it by years. For me, the deal breaker with an expensive car is when the manufacturer clones it and offers it to people who can't afford it for tens of thousands less under a different marque. The Japanese seem as incapable of avoiding doing this as the Americans are.

 

[wctsao]

The fact is, the majority of people don't agree with you. The majority of people equate Lexus (for better or worse) with BMW and Mercedes. Acura isnt even remotely close in terms of brand power.

That may be true, but I truly feel that Mercedes and BMW owners still look down on Lexus owners because they don't have the brand history. They don't care if their german cars have small problems here or there. Its a [Mercedes/BMW].

Don't you ever wonder why on Edmunds, Lexus owners are always trying to defend their cars against Mercedes and BMW owners. You never hear Mercedes or BMW owners trying to defend their purchase.

The 911 may compare to the NSX in performance and price, but your really getting a completely different animal with the NSX. I see the Lotus Esprit V8 as a closer competitor.

The 911 is for the unwashed masses. j/k ... . I have great respect for the 993 and 997 series.

 

[mlambert890]

[BThat may be true, but I truly feel that Mercedes and BMW owners still look down on Lexus owners because they don't have the brand history. They don't care if their german cars have small problems here or there. Its a [Mercedes/BMW].
[/B]

I agree. Personally, I'm in that group myself! (see comments above). As a former owner of Mercedes and BMW, I don't consider Lexus as a peer of them at all. A non-trivial number of buyers do, however, and Lexus HAS been hurting Mercedes and BMW sales.

For me, I'd even take a "Bangled" BMW over a Lexus, but I have to admit that I'm a bit of a brand snob when I'm spending significant money (it's not like the Lexus cars are all that cheap).

 

[wctsao]

Hopefully the new BMW design will improve with Kloos.

Come Sept 1, Verena Kloos will replace Hooydonk (designed the new 7-Series and 6-series) at DesignWorks USA (bought by BMW). Hooydonk will still head the BMW design team in Munich. Kloos's team designed the new Mercedes CLS and the interior of the GST Vision show car.

 

[waldorf]

Along the lines of this topic, my wife drives a BMW Z3 (made in South Carolina) and I drive a Pontiac Firebird (made in Canada)... So who *really* drives the import?

 

[oscar_driver]

Actually i have tons of Nsx videos (best motoring), and well, the videos are always JDMxJDM or JDMxSupercars or RWDXRWD or N/A vs Turbo cars etc etc,, see, i guess you didn't have good luck with the videos that you've watched, they are tons of NSX's vs Lamborghinis or ferraris and Corvettes and Porches M3's etc from Best Motoring.
People think that Best Motoring is kinda bias towards Nsx but on track i'm not sure but this is other story, well my 2¢
Oscar
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/526433

 

[clr1024]

I think the issue about where a car comes from is more than just where its manufactured. Really you are talking about who engineered the product. In today's global market cars are manufactured all over the world ftypically for reasons of cost savings, but the primary reason a car is well, made/designed well is engineering and then second its the manufacturing. Some of the best manufacturers are outside the US and some are inside but they didn't engineer the product, they just made it according to the print. Certain countries, e.g Germany, have established themselves as being superior in engineering to other countries, but thats just takes time before the gap closes and the names get similar brand name recognition.

Thats my two cents

 

[E211AMG]

The magazine reports that "MERCEDES-BENZ does not make in Germany anymore"?

I even know the name of city in Germany where my car was produced at. What are they talking about??? Just had to add that point.

 

[Timpo]

Not only Shiseido(cosmetics) and Lexus(cars), but some other Japanese companies have pretty good social status as well...

Alpine, Nakamichi, Pioneer, they all have pretty good status.

Seiko and Citizen can compete with some high quality watch companies as well. Casio is...maybe not...but Seiko is definitely something.

Japan makes good computers and electronics too, such as Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic, NEC, etc...

Infiniti is not quite good as Lexus, but they're pretty close now. They're getting up there.
The new Infiniti SUV (QX56 I guess?) has pretty good status...I think its status is as high as Lincoln Navigator or Cadillac Escalade.

I heard the new Q45 has world's most intense headlights for production car.

Anyways, here are some reason why Acura's social status sucks...

Acura doesn't have very good status because they don't ever make V8 luxuary sedan to compete with LS430, Q45, S-Class, 7 series, A8 or whatever.
Also, MDX is not even close to LX430, QX56, Navigator and Escalade.

OK, here's very important part!
Acura's starting price is too cheap for luxuary brand.
RSX and 1.7EL(available in Canada) shouldn't even be there. Infiniti and Lexus never sell their cars in RSX or 1.7EL price range.

As you can see, Acura is too cheap. I think they should get RSX and 1.7EL out of Acura and put them into Honda. I even think CL or TSX should/might as well/possibly be in Honda brand too.

RSX is a pretty fun sportscar, but RSX is more like Celica or Tiburon competitor. It won't be able to compete with other European cars.
Look at coupes from Infiniti and Lexus. They have G35 coupe and SC430. They're not even close to RSX. Even CL is not good as G35 or SC430. Did Toyota ever put Celica into Lexus? No, because Toyota knows that Celica won't do anything about social status.

Also, they should put S2000 into Acura. S2000 is known as pretty good competitor of Boxster, SLK, Audi TT and Z4.
S2000 deserves Acura brand name to compete with Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Audi and BMW.

What Acura needs to do to obtain social status is...

1. Get rid of 1.7EL and RSX!!! possibly TSX or CL as well.
2. Get S2000 into Acura brand.
3. Build V8 luxuary Sedans
4. Build V8 luxuary SUVs
5. Build a new flagship sportscar (next gen NSX), current NSX is getting too old to compete with new Porsche 911 or Ferrari F430.

 

[Timpo]

by the way, have you guys ever had an experience like this?

somebody: "wow nice car? Is that a Ferrari?"
you: "no, it's an Acura"
somebody: "what? I didn't know that Acura made a sportscar like that"

That's pretty common conversation...
Do you see what I mean?
The world think that Acura makes some cheap cars. Here's what people think...Acura's sportscar = RSX or Integra. Acura's sedan = Integra 4 door, 1.6 or 1.7EL, etc...

For example, if people see a nice luxuary car and say something like...

somebody: "hey nice sedan, what's that? Mercedes? Audi?"
you: "no, it's a Lexus"
somebody: "oh yeah? nice! looks good."

and nobody will say something like "oh I didn't know that Lexus makes luxuary sedans" do you know why? because Lexus won't put corolla or Camry into Lexus brand. They only sell expensive cars in their brand. The cheapest cars you can get from Lexus is IS300 or ES330.

 

[Ponyboy]

MB and Porsche don't manufacture cars in Germany anymore? When did that happen? It must have been over the last four months b/c when I went to the MB and Porsche factories they were there, in Germany, putting the cars together. Hmph. Learn something new everday.

 

[fannsx]

.

What Acura needs to do to obtain social status is...

1. Get rid of 1.7EL and RSX!!! possibly TSX or CL as well.
2. Get S2000 into Acura brand.
3. Build V8 luxuary Sedans
4. Build V8 luxuary SUVs
5. Build a new flagship sportscar (next gen NSX), current NSX is getting too old to compete with new Porsche 911 or Ferrari F430.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with your plan for Acura expansion.

 

[E211AMG]

I totally agree, not to flame but i do not see how the nsx can compete with some of the other cars in its price range right now.

 

[NetViper]

I totally agree, not to flame but i do not see how the nsx can compete with some of the other cars in its price range right now.

To me the NSX MUST always compete with a 911 Carrera. Up until 2002, they were pretty close, but Porsche has been upping the displacement and power steadily over the years. Nonetheless, the NSX remained relatively competitive.

Now, in 2004, the 997 is out and the Carrera S (which is priced right with the NSX) is a MUCH faster car. 350HP, 0-60 in 4.1. 1/4 mile under 13 and trapping @ 112! It also has the latest electronic controls, brakes, ABS etc. etc.

Acura/Honda needs to step up to the plate. At this point, I think it would be a good idea to bump the NSX to a 3.5L V6 with 350-375HP. Keep the price the same, update the styling a little on the outside, and PLEASE update the interior. (Digital Odo, and the NAV system and stereo from the TL. The rest is perfect IMO)

THAT car WILL sell.

Just my opinion.

 

[AndyH]

I totally agree, not to flame but i do not see how the nsx can compete with some of the other cars in its price range right now.

Yeah, I agree. Instead of giving the dealer $10K rebate, Honda should just slap on the CTSC for all new nsx then they won't have problem competing with high end sport car like 911 Turbo, 360 Modena and such...