that stupid thing recorded 10 seconds of video each time i turned it on. so i have 6 instances of 10 second videos of me at the start line :/
i am representing the NSX community in the SCCA autocross national championships
- Thread starter shrddr
- Start date
that stupid thing recorded 10 seconds of video each time i turned it on. so i have 6 instances of 10 second videos of me at the start line :/
I don't know how you can autoX this car with the top off like that. When I have my top off, the car shakes and bends, the steering feel is much less precise, everything feels loose. And my car is an 05 with teen miles and I am not using slicks. Aren't you worried about the amount of chassis flex you are bringing to this car? I would think this would really stress the chassis.
Is this because you can't fit with your helmet on?
Is this because you can't fit with your helmet on?
I think even with the top out an NSX-T is still a very rigid car. Also, any weight you can remove from higher up on the car will pay dividends in some amount.
Although, looking at the photos, it might be a close issue on helmet clearance as well.
Although, looking at the photos, it might be a close issue on helmet clearance as well.
i have never had an issue with rattles or shakes or bends on the street or at an autocross. the car feels so darn rock solid even when i am throwing it around corners without the top.
i do fit in the car (barely) with the helmet on, but as R13 pointed out, i take it off for the weight saving.
That's interesing, perhaps the speeds aren't high enough on autoX. I am not saying the NSX is really weak compared to other no-roof cars, it's all relative... but there is a decided difference I can feel in the chassis with the top on/off. In fact the steering feel changes. There is some low level of "shimmy" in the streering that tightens up with the roof on. If you go over a bump with the top off, you can feel a slight jiggle in the steering wheel. With the top on, its just a "thump" and the steering is not affected at all. Perhaps I am more sensitive to this because I am taking more notice? I don't know. I really like the solid feel the car has with the top on, and that make ME faster on the track. I think for me the weight savings of taking the top off would not be enough to compensate.
Have you guys tried running both ways and decided it is defiitely better with the top off? A while back Ross made a great point to me that chassis stiffness will allow everything to work better and you will be faster even if you gain a bit of weight. The car's "feel" has a lot to do with how much I will push a car.
Anyway this is very interesting to me... perhaps if I autoX's my opinion would be the same as yours.
Have you guys tried running both ways and decided it is defiitely better with the top off? A while back Ross made a great point to me that chassis stiffness will allow everything to work better and you will be faster even if you gain a bit of weight. The car's "feel" has a lot to do with how much I will push a car.
Anyway this is very interesting to me... perhaps if I autoX's my opinion would be the same as yours.
there are a couple of things at work here:
1. in autocross, i compete in the stock class, which means i am running the super soft stock springs. is the nsx's chassis stiffer with the roof on? sure is, but the nsx chassis without the roof is also stiff enough that the stock springs comply with bumps and turns such that the chassis is not loaded up with strong twisting forces.
2. unlike higher speed road courses, autocross corners are much shorter. as a result, by the time the springs compress for a turn, you are already unwinding the steering and shooting out of the turn. point being, everything is much more of a transitional maneuver... rather than a longer corner that loads up the chassis.
3. "feel", as you said is a very subjective thing. in racing, "feel" can help inspire confidence... but by its very nature does not affect real grip. i have (in all honesty) noticed no difference in steering feel, rattles, squeaks, or anything without the roof on. at autocross speeds i think you would be hard pressed to find any measurable difference in times between having the roof on/off.
4. let's think about WHY chassis stiffness matters; it makes the cars reactions more predictable. it keeps the angles of the suspension more consistent. and as a result, it makes the driver's job less of a guessing game. however, for autocross, i believe that the difference in flex between having the top on and off is absolutely minimal, and the weight saving (and comfort) is well worth it.
perhaps a more scientific test is needed, since we can disagree on "feel" all day long
but the bottom line for me is that i am more comfortable in the car with the roof off, and i think the difference (if any) is WELL within the window of driver noise/variability that it does not matter.
1. in autocross, i compete in the stock class, which means i am running the super soft stock springs. is the nsx's chassis stiffer with the roof on? sure is, but the nsx chassis without the roof is also stiff enough that the stock springs comply with bumps and turns such that the chassis is not loaded up with strong twisting forces.
2. unlike higher speed road courses, autocross corners are much shorter. as a result, by the time the springs compress for a turn, you are already unwinding the steering and shooting out of the turn. point being, everything is much more of a transitional maneuver... rather than a longer corner that loads up the chassis.
3. "feel", as you said is a very subjective thing. in racing, "feel" can help inspire confidence... but by its very nature does not affect real grip. i have (in all honesty) noticed no difference in steering feel, rattles, squeaks, or anything without the roof on. at autocross speeds i think you would be hard pressed to find any measurable difference in times between having the roof on/off.
4. let's think about WHY chassis stiffness matters; it makes the cars reactions more predictable. it keeps the angles of the suspension more consistent. and as a result, it makes the driver's job less of a guessing game. however, for autocross, i believe that the difference in flex between having the top on and off is absolutely minimal, and the weight saving (and comfort) is well worth it.
perhaps a more scientific test is needed, since we can disagree on "feel" all day long
but the bottom line for me is that i am more comfortable in the car with the roof off, and i think the difference (if any) is WELL within the window of driver noise/variability that it does not matter.Yeah that's basically how I feel, I think an autoX course is too small and flat to show an issue. On a road race coarse just the wind alone would slow you enough on the straights to justify putting the top back on.
I've also learned how much "feel" really matters. I do my best driving when I stop thinking in the car, and I allow myself to feel the car. I become the brain, the car becomes my extended body, and chassis feedback is my nervous system. Cut the nervous system and it all falls apart. Steering feel and feedback, the vocal quality of the tires, the vibrations coming to me through the seat... this is all feedback I NEED to "feel" the car.
I use a thin seat cushion to clear my helmet. But I have realized that after I put the stock, more comfy seat cushion in, I also lose a lot of feel. My 2005 shift knob was damped. The type R shift knob I use now has NO damping internally. It transmits all the vibrations into my hand. It is not as comfortable, but it has a very mechanical quality in that I literally FEEL the gear changes.
Removing the targa top changes the feel of the car. It would be as if there was alcohol in my body affecting my nervous system. Stuff still happens... you are correct in that grip may not be that different, but not getting as much feedback would inhibit me from driving the car better.
This is one of the things I like so much about the NSX, and the only other car I have felt this way in is the Cayman. I have been in faster, More powerful cars. If the steering feel is the least bit more vague, my connection is lost. If the brake feel is the least bit floaty, my feedback is less.
Perhaps you have gotten so good at autoX in the car technically that you no longer need that feedback. Perhaps it is more important to someone like me that is really trying to grasp the "feel" of fast driving.
In any event I would be really curious what would really happen if you ran back to back top on and top off under controlled conditions and averaged out say a dozen runs. I realize right now you feel there is no difference in feel. But try this... take the top off, drive down a bumpy road, and pay particular attention to what happens with your steering wheel right after you go over a bump. Then put the top on and do the same exact thing. I think you will notice something.
I am not trying to be critical in any way, I think this is a very interesting conversation.
I've also learned how much "feel" really matters. I do my best driving when I stop thinking in the car, and I allow myself to feel the car. I become the brain, the car becomes my extended body, and chassis feedback is my nervous system. Cut the nervous system and it all falls apart. Steering feel and feedback, the vocal quality of the tires, the vibrations coming to me through the seat... this is all feedback I NEED to "feel" the car.
I use a thin seat cushion to clear my helmet. But I have realized that after I put the stock, more comfy seat cushion in, I also lose a lot of feel. My 2005 shift knob was damped. The type R shift knob I use now has NO damping internally. It transmits all the vibrations into my hand. It is not as comfortable, but it has a very mechanical quality in that I literally FEEL the gear changes.
Removing the targa top changes the feel of the car. It would be as if there was alcohol in my body affecting my nervous system. Stuff still happens... you are correct in that grip may not be that different, but not getting as much feedback would inhibit me from driving the car better.
This is one of the things I like so much about the NSX, and the only other car I have felt this way in is the Cayman. I have been in faster, More powerful cars. If the steering feel is the least bit more vague, my connection is lost. If the brake feel is the least bit floaty, my feedback is less.
Perhaps you have gotten so good at autoX in the car technically that you no longer need that feedback. Perhaps it is more important to someone like me that is really trying to grasp the "feel" of fast driving.
In any event I would be really curious what would really happen if you ran back to back top on and top off under controlled conditions and averaged out say a dozen runs. I realize right now you feel there is no difference in feel. But try this... take the top off, drive down a bumpy road, and pay particular attention to what happens with your steering wheel right after you go over a bump. Then put the top on and do the same exact thing. I think you will notice something.
I am not trying to be critical in any way, I think this is a very interesting conversation.
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absolutely! the aerodynamic benefits alone make it worth having the roof on for road racing (not to mention the chassis stiffening and safety benefits)
everything that you describe as "feel", i call "the sensations of driving". i know it is just semantics, but the feeling of connectedness, the sensations transmitted through the steering, gear shift, and seat bottom, all contribute to the experience of driving. it is what makes the nsx special.
when i use the term "feel", it am more concerned with feeling the limit of traction, feeling the weight transfer of the car and being able to feel how much weight is on each tire, and feeling the yaw rate of the car.
there is no right or wrong "feel" to long for. it is essentially a non-technical term, so it is going to mean different things to everybody
i think you're right. this is an interesting discussion, without any clear answer. at some future autocross, perhaps i'll give it a shot. then again, you're talking to a guy who takes off his entire muffler when autocrossing to save ~40 lbs, even though it makes the car sound like a cross between a porsche GT3 and a fart-can civic
everything that you describe as "feel", i call "the sensations of driving". i know it is just semantics, but the feeling of connectedness, the sensations transmitted through the steering, gear shift, and seat bottom, all contribute to the experience of driving. it is what makes the nsx special.
when i use the term "feel", it am more concerned with feeling the limit of traction, feeling the weight transfer of the car and being able to feel how much weight is on each tire, and feeling the yaw rate of the car.
there is no right or wrong "feel" to long for. it is essentially a non-technical term, so it is going to mean different things to everybody
i think you're right. this is an interesting discussion, without any clear answer. at some future autocross, perhaps i'll give it a shot. then again, you're talking to a guy who takes off his entire muffler when autocrossing to save ~40 lbs, even though it makes the car sound like a cross between a porsche GT3 and a fart-can civic
Lol, well that explains the pictures. I was trying to figure out what type of exhaust you had...
Kinda stupid but "stock" class allows open modification(apparently including removal) of anything down-stream of the cats...and there's no sound restriction at nationals sooooo. I'm actually morbidly curious to hear what that would sound like.
Kinda stupid but "stock" class allows open modification(apparently including removal) of anything down-stream of the cats...and there's no sound restriction at nationals sooooo. I'm actually morbidly curious to hear what that would sound like.
the cats are still in place so technically it is not open headers
anything downstream of the cats is replaceable/removable for stock class. and starting 2010, there has been a sound limit for nationals... 100db. my car blew 92db
in terms of the sound quality... it sounds kinda crappy below 4k rpms... but sounds really aggressive and mean in the higher revs!
v
anything downstream of the cats is replaceable/removable for stock class. and starting 2010, there has been a sound limit for nationals... 100db. my car blew 92db
in terms of the sound quality... it sounds kinda crappy below 4k rpms... but sounds really aggressive and mean in the higher revs!
v
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hmmm I wonder if this setup reduces back pressure too much in the lower rpm range..ie lose hp...but then it may be offset by the weight reduction....oh my head hurts pondering these theoretical conundrum
it probably does lose power in the sub-3k rpm range... but considering that no time is spent in that rpm range while racing... it does not matter
here is a video of my fastest run from day #2 of the SW divisional. and yes, the muffler is off
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just released...
here is the official 2010 SCCA autocross national championships music video
it is VERY well made.
- my car makes a (stationary) appearance from 2:27-2:30
- very cool footage of my friend's 70s datsun Z leaving the start line from 3:51-3:55
fair warning: the song may get stuck in your head.
enjoy
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pTCvudqDqkc?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pTCvudqDqkc?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
here is the official 2010 SCCA autocross national championships music video
it is VERY well made.
- my car makes a (stationary) appearance from 2:27-2:30
- very cool footage of my friend's 70s datsun Z leaving the start line from 3:51-3:55
fair warning: the song may get stuck in your head.
enjoy
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pTCvudqDqkc?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pTCvudqDqkc?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
Great video! Sorry I couldn't stick around till the end of the day to ride. I will make it out next time.
Blaine
Blaine
