How low should I lower my car?

[ryneen]

I have a stock '91 that I would like to lower for looks. However, I do not want to sacrifice performance. How low can I go without hurting performance or ride quality? The new NSX Type R suspension from Science of Speed only lowers the car 1/2"-3/4". I don't think that is very much. It looks like I need to lower more than an inch to get a better looking car. I know I can lower the car more with Tein's. However, is it a good idea to lower the car more than 3/4"? Will the suspension geometry and handling be negatively affected by lowering it more? Does anyone know of a way of lowering the Type R suspension more than the 1/2"-3/4"?
Thanks,
Ryan

 

[OLDE GUY]

DON'T FORGET TO CHECK THE SPRING RATES OF THESE SUSPENSIONS

How Do The Various Suspension Packages Compare? **


.........................................Front............Rear............Ratio....Lower
.........................................#/in..............#/in...........frt/rr%...Inch

Stock '91 NSX....................170..............220..............77%

Stock '96 NSX....................179..............212..............84%

Stock '97 NSX....................196..............224..............88%

Stock '95 NSX-R.................447..............319............140%

Stock '93 NSX-R.................447..............336............133%

Stock '97 NSX S / Zanardi..363..............279............130%.....0.5 "

Stock '97 NSX S Zero........448..............336............133%.....0.5"

Stock '02 NSX Type-R.........582.............465.............125%....0.5"

Ground Control(Race)........601.............501.............120%...adjust

Ground Control(Street)......375.............501..............75%

Comptech Pro....................800.............601.............167%...adjust

Comptech Sport............150/200.......150/250.......60%-80%

Tein RA and RE..................591..............671..............88%...adjust

Eibach Pro.........................228..........137-280.....112%-81%...1"

H&R..................................260.............275...............94%.....1.5"

**Much of this information comes from DaliRacing website with some additions and updates

 

[coolnsx]

Car Height

Your asking to lower the car and retain existing ride; NO! You lower the car, shorten the spring range you get firmer ride. Does it corner faster, yes we all hope so with all the after market stuff we buy but you loose the soft ride. But isn't that extra 1/10th of a second worth it? I love mine tight and rough.

 

[ryneen]

I'm leaning toward getting the new NSX-R because I heard it handles as good if not better than the Teins. However I'm upset that it only lowers my car .5". What I would like to know, is if .5" will even be noticable? I want my car to look lowered. How much is a normal amount that people lower their cars. Do people lower the NSX .5", 1", 1.5"? When is it too low for city driving and driveways?
Thanks,
Ryan

 

[ak]

I'm leaning toward getting the new NSX-R because I heard it handles as good if not better than the Teins. However I'm upset that it only lowers my car .5". What I would like to know, is if .5" will even be noticable? I want my car to look lowered. How much is a normal amount that people lower their cars. Do people lower the NSX .5", 1", 1.5"? When is it too low for city driving and driveways?
Thanks,
Ryan

I think the lowering options are:

1. Stock - nice and high like a truck
2. Bilstein Lower Perch - 7/8" drop
3. Eibach Springs - 1.25" drop
4. H&R springs - 1.5" drop
5. Ground Control or Teins - adjustable drop
6. Zanardi shock/springs - 1/2" drop
7. 02 NSX-R suspension - 1/2" drop
8. Dali springs - ??

This thread is helpful in seeing what some of them look like. http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29085&highlight=eibach

Will it scrape more if you lower it? You bet. That's the price you pay for looking cool Also, don't think that just because NSX-R suspension came from the factory, it's comfortable. If you look at the spring rate, it's triple of that of stock. Unless you track often, I'm not sure if NSX-R suspension is a good option. However, I have never personally driven NSX-R so I can't say for sure.

 

[nsxtasy]

1. Stock - nice and high like a truck

That's about the stupidest remark I've seen here in a while. Show me a truck that's 46 inches high.

If you want to lower your car - keeping in mind that it's for looks, not performance - then go for it. My NSX is plenty low for me at stock ride height. It handles flawlessly (just like the factory designers intended) and I wouldn't want the front end to scrape any more than it already does.

 

[OLDE GUY]

ryneen -

You're asking essentually an esthetic question which only you can answer. You apparently live in LA and can easily meet up with other NSX owners and see for yourself the look you like.

What I and others are trying to point out is that the various packages have firmer spring rates than stock - often, much much firmer - which you NEED to consider. For example, the TEIN and NSX-R suspensions are very, very firm and you probably will hate driving the car. You will have wasted your money and will be posting them for sale on this website. There are Eibach and H&R springs available for sale all the time on this site because the owners don't like the firm ride - and they aren't nearly as firm as the TEIN or NSX-R.

Take your time, visit with other NSX owners, talk with them and ride in their cars. Consider the smoothness of the roads that you typically drive on. Then you can make an informed decision.

 

[ak]

That's about the stupidest remark I've seen here in a while. Show me a truck that's 46 inches high.

Come on Ken, that was a silly remark not to be taken seriously. I actually wouldn't mind the stock ride height but do not like how much gap there is between the wheel well and the tires. If you look at modern bmw and others, you don't see that on sports cars.

 

[sjs]

... There are Eibach and H&R springs available for sale all the time on this site because the owners don't like the firm ride - and they aren't nearly as firm as the TEIN or NSX-R.

H&Rs are decidedly more harsh than the typical Tien configuration, and you can order slightly softer springs for the Tiens without being over-damped if you prefer a bit more comfort with your adjustable ride height. And I think you would find few Eibach owners who agree that those are particularly harsh when mated with stock or Bilstein dampers.

 

[apapada]

it seems everyone here is concerned just with the ride harshness. Handling will also be greatly affected, not necessarily in the right direction. Most seem to assume because a car is lowered, that it HAS to handle better. Not true... everything is a compromise and Honda engineers spent big $$$ to find the best one for 90% of the NSX owners. Unless you are in the remaining 10%, you should leave the car as it is. Form should ALWAYS follow function, not the other way around

 

[sjs]

it seems everyone here is concerned just with the ride harshness. Handling will also be greatly affected, not necessarily in the right direction. Most seem to assume because a car is lowered, that it HAS to handle better. Not true... everything is a compromise and Honda engineers spent big $$$ to find the best one for 90% of the NSX owners. Unless you are in the remaining 10%, you should leave the car as it is. Form should ALWAYS follow function, not the other way around

The compromises made for the stock ride height are decidedly in favor of adequate ground clearance, comfort, etc.. While much of what you say is true and echos my own words on many occasions, I think you over-state the potential negative impact to handling performance as a result of moderate lowering. When lowering 1 inch or less the handling benefits from height alone are minimal but if done with properly matched components the only real downside in handling will be some bump-steer.

 

[apapada]

The compromises made for the stock ride height are decidedly in favor of adequate ground clearance, comfort, etc.. While much of what you say is true and echos my own words on many occasions, I think you over-state the potential negative impact to handling performance as a result of moderate lowering. When lowering 1 inch or less the handling benefits from height alone are minimal but if done with properly matched components the only real downside in handling will be some bump-steer.

I was rather referring to general vehicle dynamics response and overall handling behavior (oversteer/understeer) as one approaches the car's limits and how fast they are exceeded. You are right that an inch or so drop would probably have minimal effect on overall "handling" and here is partially why:

The lateral load transfer variation DeltaZ is given by
(LateralTireGrip x VehicleLoad x CGheight) / VehicleTrack

and the Longitudinal transfer variation DeltaZ is given by
(LongitudinalTireGrip x VehicleLoad x CGheight) / VehicleWheelBase

For the NSX, for 1" drop we have about less than 5% difference in lateral load transfer and even less than that for longitudinal load transfer.

But what an 1" drop with stiffer springs will do is give the car a complete different feedback to the pilot in the cockpit, and a much less forgiving setup for the novice.

Although I do not have any in depth analysis for the NSX, my feeling would be that even a 1" drop would bring the current OE suspension beyond the current design envelop, Honda engineers designed the car from the factory. In order to remedy to this issue, extensive suspension tune-up would be required on a Kinematics & Compliance Rig (=$75,000 just for the suspension setup characterization, time for tune-up being extra).

Bottom line, I know those setups are designed for the NSX and as such they will definetly deliver the "looks" of a lowered NSX. The real question is the real price you will have to pay not only in comfort for everyday driving but also in vehicle response on the track or on the street the day you approach the handling "limits".

 

[sjs]

I was rather referring to general vehicle dynamics response and overall handling behavior (oversteer/understeer) as one approaches the car's limits and how fast they are exceeded. You are right that an inch or so drop would probably have minimal effect on overall "handling" and here is partially why:...

Textbook formulas and theory are fine, but how much actual experience do you have with such changes on the NSX? First you say your comments were generic (although the original question was NSX specific), then you agree that the difference will be minimal. And then you describe the effects in almost frightening terms which I can say from plenty of experience simply are not accurate. Perhaps you do have experience with the NSX, but some of your conclusions are at odds with mine.

Your original complaint was that no one was pointing out the impact on handling. I for one didn't bother because I think the positive effects of lowering alone (especially with progressive rate Eibachs) are typically exaggerated, but I would say that your comments are at the opposite extreme. Yes, the NSX is delivered with a very carefully designed and tuned suspension, but just take their own variants as an example and you can see that lowering it with the right springs and dampers will not put the novice at risk or require mega-dollar testing.

 

[ryneen]

What is a normal lowering amount for Tein's? I'm interested in hearing what height people are happy with. I've ordered the NSX Type R suspension, but I'm bummed that I can only lower my car .5" I want performance, but I also want a somewhat lowered "look"as well. I may switch to Tein's in order to lower it more. Can the NSX be lowered 1.25" with little adverse effects (streetabilty or handling)? If not, what is a realistic and common lowering amount?
Thanks,
Ryan

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Street legal sports cars are manufactured to handle well, and have satisfactory tire life. Race cars are produced low and with tons of negative camber to handle extremely well, and eat tires. By lowering your NSX, you will gain some negative camber, and thus stick better in the turns, and have reduced tire life.

For me personally I believe that tires are a cheap trade-off to get the extra negative camber to allow me to stick like 2 part epoxy in the turns, especially with a mid engine, and rear wheel drive.

If you go with a coil-over, you can have it the way you want. Drop it 2" for the car show, bring it back up to OEM for that drive to NSXPO, and then drop it an inch for the track session.

If you don't like the extra work, and want to save your tires, go with the Eibachs. If you don't care about tire wear, go with the H&R's.

For me, I buy new tires every year on purpose irregardless of what the wear is, thus I chose the H&R's (1.5") and Koni yellows.

 

[apapada]

Textbook formulas and theory are fine, but how much actual experience do you have with such changes on the NSX?

Just read my post again. I did state that "I do not have any in depth analysis for the NSX". This said, I have in depth analysis for many other vehicles and the majority of the suspension setup configuration you will find on the market today.

Originally posted by sjs
First you say your comments were generic (although the original question was NSX specific), then you agree that the difference will be minimal.

The NSX suspension might have been "exotic" back in the early 90s, but today double wishbones is commonplace. There are only that many parameters that can be realistically adjusted for a given type of suspension and physics being the same for everyone, there are some concepts that can be addressed in a general fashion and some concept that are specific to a given chassis.

Originally posted by sjs
Your original complaint was that no one was pointing out the impact on handling. I for one didn't bother because I think the positive effects of lowering alone (especially with progressive rate Eibachs) are typically exaggerated, but I would say that your comments are at the opposite extreme. Yes, the NSX is delivered with a very carefully designed and tuned suspension, but just take their own variants as an example and you can see that lowering it with the right springs and dampers will not put the novice at risk or require mega-dollar testing.

This is your experience, which should be taken into account, just as mine dictates that "simple mods" to sharply tuned suspensions might be a bigger headache than one had bargained for. Especially when modifying a car's suspension just to achieve the right "looks".

 

[apapada]

By lowering your NSX, you will gain some negative camber, and thus stick better in the turns, and have reduced tire life.

For me personally I believe that tires are a cheap trade-off to get the extra negative camber to allow me to stick like 2 part epoxy in the turns, especially with a mid engine, and rear wheel drive.

With too much of camber, I am affraid you are forgetting the fact that #1 your contact patch is greatly reduced, and #2 your tires are heating up unevenly, not only reducing tire tread life but potentially running the risk of causing tire failure due to high temperature gradients within the tire.

Setups that race teams running on a raceday cannot be generalized for street cars !

 

[sjs]

...just as mine dictates that "simple mods" to sharply tuned suspensions might be a bigger headache than one had bargained for. Especially when modifying a car's suspension just to achieve the right "looks".

No argument with those statements, I just felt the need to temper some of the earlier ones that seemed more severe than I have found to be true.

 

[sjs]

With too much of camber, I am affraid you are forgetting the fact that #1 your contact patch is greatly reduced, and #2 your tires are heating up unevenly, not only reducing tire tread life but potentially running the risk of causing tire failure due to high temperature gradients within the tire.

Setups that race teams running on a raceday cannot be generalized for street cars !

All true, but even the H&R setup of which T Bell speaks, which is pretty much worse-case for common NSX mods, is not that severe. Having run exactly that for a number of years and several sets of tires I can state that the resulting -3.1 degrees camber (the minimum I can get) works very well on the street if you don't mind buying tires more often. Sure you lose a bit of contact patch when going straight (at least until the tires are well worn in) but it pays double dividends in the corners where the fun is anyway. I've run similar camber or worse on various cars for decades and never had problems related to overheating or uneven temps.

Not trying to attack here, just offering my directly applicable experience.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Hi ryneen,

out of the box I can bet that the R suspension will outhandle the Tein. That being said, the Tein can be tune to match or even better the R. This will take money and extensive testing though. IMHO, I would much rather stick with the type R and not worry.

If you do get the type R, I would not change one thing about the suspension. The chance of ruining a great suspension is too great.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

With too much of camber, I am affraid you are forgetting the fact that #1 your contact patch is greatly reduced, and #2 your tires are heating up unevenly, not only reducing tire tread life but potentially running the risk of causing tire failure due to high temperature gradients within the tire.

Setups that race teams running on a raceday cannot be generalized for street cars !

Well you can believe that, and continue acting on your beliefs, but don't cry to us when you wonder why we all beat you down the mountain.

We all said that tire life is diminished with increased negative camber, but not to the extremes that you predict. And some of us said that we would rather trade the increased tread wear for the increase in handling. The only time that the contact patch is reduced, is going straight (like sjs said) and unless you are building a drag car, you don't need much in a straight line. The contact patch will actually be better with increased negative camber while turning, not less.

I run my race settings on the street as well, contrary to your statement. The only difference is I take my sticky's off, and go back to street pads, thats it.

My car handles better than ever on the street, even with street tires.

 

[apapada]

Well you can believe that, and continue acting on your beliefs, but don't cry to us when you wonder why we all beat you down the mountain.

whatever man, you are right... what do I know about tires...

 

[1TITENSX]

Please disregard this post.

 

[CDub]

I have Eibachs and Bilstein right now. I'm contemplating changing back to OEM springs on Bilstein lower perch. My question is:

Which setup gives you better performance, handling and stability on the track?

Eibach+Bilstein

or

Stock Springs+Bilstein lower perch

Bear in mind, this is not for looks. I think both combos look good. I heard linear springs give you more predictability, but the Eibachs have higher spring rate.

Ryneen, how do you like your type-R suspension, so far? Not an option for me, but just curious. Any feedback?

 

[caseycarson]

If you decide to sell the Eibach's, put me in line first! :biggrin: