Honda Style magazine's take on ASC

[WingZ]

order to tune the car.

Another way of looking at it would be by taking a step back and thinking about all the mods that were made on the NA2-R in order for it to compete in the 24 hour enduro at the Ring and compare that with what was done to the 996GT3's and 997GT3's, it's like night and day. Look up Detlef's thread from about 4 years back and that will give you an idea on how many changes were required on the NSX for it to be competitive.

The 996GT3's as well as the 997GT3 are totally overengineered if you were to just drive them in the street.

In order to make your NA2 close in regards to performance as well as reliability on a true track environment as the GT3 you would have to spend a lot more than what you have spent modding your car so far, as well as looking at many other areas that you have overlooked while modding your car.
(BTW: Many of the comments that I just made also apply to the S2K as well)

Now let's get back to talking about how we like or dislike the ASC

Ken

Hey Ken

Two sidebars

1. Where can I find out what was done to the NSX-R to compete in the 24hr Ring enduro

2. S2000's suffer from oil starvation?

 

[BD]

Hey Vance,

No offense, but you are really drinking the cool-aid, put some good R-compounds or slicks on a NSX and toss the car around a track at speed where it can generate lot's of cornering loads for many hours at a time and that will more than likely cause oil starvation on the NSX engine and cause it to fail, or the engine will overheat.

But Ken, by assume that I track my car, you are making Ass our of U and Me:biggrin: Yeah, I just gotta go there.lol

No, I don't track my car, and I don't intend to track my car. If I want to track a NSX, I will fix up a beater NSX and do that. I'm not crazy enough to risk a 100 grand car so I can see how fast I can go and try not to crash it.

Just like 99/% of the SUV owner that will not take their car off road, most of us will not take the sports on to a track. (Excluding drag strip).

Therefore, of course, I would buy a GT3 if I don't have my NSX. But I do have my NSX, therefore, I wouldn't buy a GT3.

Porsche is an over engineered car? I have to agree, but is it more over engineered then the NSX? Perhaps the Engine is, design more for track use, but I don't think the suspension and Chassis technology is better. Until 997, they were still pertty dangerous to drive.

 

[2slow2speed]

Hey Ken

Two sidebars

1. Where can I find out what was done to the NSX-R to compete in the 24hr Ring enduro

2. S2000's suffer from oil starvation?

#1 Try the following link for the original NSX-R that competed in the 24 Hour race at the ring: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16974&highlight=24+hours

#2 Know of several folks who had problems with their AP1 S2K's because of oil starvation, didn't see many hard-core S2K guys with AP2's at the track when I was a total track whore so I don't know if the problem is still prevalent on the AP2's. Check with John@Microsoft or docjohn they should know a lot more given that they track/used to track their S2K's as well.

OK, now something about the ASC, it looks like something that came out of BSG, I could totally see a hot female Cylon (Caprica model) driving one while running over people with it, lol

 

[WingZ]

#1 Try the following link for the original NSX-R that competed in the 24 Hour race at the ring: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16974&highlight=24+hours

#2 Know of several folks who had problems with their AP1 S2K's because of oil starvation, didn't see many hard-core S2K guys with AP2's at the track when I was a total track whore so I don't know if the problem is still prevalent on the AP2's. Check with John@Microsoft or docjohn they should know a lot more given that they track/used to track their S2K's as well.

OK, now something about the ASC, it looks like something that came out of BSG, I could totally see a hot female Cylon (Caprica model) driving one while running over people with it, lol

Ken...I don't understand the car did awesome and they didn't even add a dry sump. It was even stated to be ahead of more powerful cars. Vancehu may have you on this one. I read through the whole thread. "It's an excellent street car that did better than a lot of race cars" Not my words a direct quote.

Oh well I dig the ASC and will definitely buy whatever it actually becomes. I can't wait to get it on the track and see what the SH AWD system can do:biggrin:

 

[Ski_Banker]

According to your logic, every one should buy a Z06 and be happy. That how I interpret it. Why buy a NSX? Why buy a SL55, or 997 Turbo?

Some how today, performance not only has to mix in with safety and luxury, but reliability and maintanance potential.

If I'm in a market for a $120 grand sports car, I really don't have much of a choice. I can't get a 997 Turbo, Bently Coupe, SL55, or even a baby Austin Martin because they are at least 10 to 50 grand higher. I can go for a GT3, but what is the point? I builtd a NSX based the JDM R, which is not far from the GT3 and the car will be far more reliable.

I'm speaking for my self for this one; let's say I squeezed all my pennies and buy a 997 Turbo, a baby Austin, I may not be able to afford the long term maintanance on those cars. But if I do that with ASC, most likely, I will be able to.

So again, Honda is going after a market that don't really exist right now, may be a good thing.

Not sure where the disagreement is. But, I think the unclear issue is "who buys $120k cars" -- that target market. That market will be, overall, just as likely to drop $100k or $150k. Not the penny scraper just dying to get into that used $120k F360 that he can't really afford. So +/- $10k won't matter much, and neither will maintenance as long as it's not absurd (new ones are warranty and Honda only cares about selling new ones). Generalizations....

The Z06 is not the same car as the M6 or Aston, and neither is the 911 GT3. Besides brand, the Z06 is a relatively lightweight track-oriented car. 911 GT3 is 100% track car.

I wouldn't buy a Z06 or GT3 for a daily commute, but I would buy an M6 for that. And that is the benchmark and target market. The 550 Maranello is this car's "competition" - something that is very fast, heavy, but pleasant for daily driving (but more reliable). The ASCC is NOT going to be a track car, and therefore, needs to be judged against similar high-performance-but-not-track-oriented-cars.

This car couldn't be more different from an NSX-R if it wanted to.

 

[2slow2speed]

Ken...I don't understand the car did awesome and they didn't even add a dry sump. It was even stated to be ahead of more powerful cars. Vancehu may have you on this one. I read through the whole thread. "It's an excellent street car that did better than a lot of race cars" Not my words a direct quote.

Oh well I dig the ASC and will definitely buy whatever it actually becomes. I can't wait to get it on the track and see what the SH AWD system can do:biggrin:

Maybe you need to go back and read again , the NA2-R had to undergo some serious modifications to be able to be competitive in it's class.

IIRC, the brakes were swapped to Movit (brembo), the suspension was modified, the aero package was modified with a big ass wing, in other words it wasn't stock.

BTW: The engine did not have starvation problems but the oil started to break down, more than likely it needed an oil cooler to keep the oil from degrading.

Many of those so called mods come standard on a track oriented car like a stock 996GT3/997GT3 or even the C6 Z06. That is what I meant by the GT3 being overengineered, in other words it's designed to meet or exceed normal street driving conditions.

For someone that will *never* track their car it's pretty much a moot point, but for someone that does it can make a *world* of difference. Some folks will get what I am saying and some don't, either way I just thought that it would be good to educate folks.

Detleft made the following comments:

Yes, this is the NSX-R driven by the sport auto guys (and one girl)
The engine is stock, the gear box with shorter 3,4 and 6 gear.
This year it will be very diificult to get a good final result.
There are probably 80 cars with more than 400 HP, all the DTM Audis and Opels,
The Porsche Turbos and GT3RR, Nissan Skyline and Dodge Viper, BMW M3 V8 GTRS
etc.

The NSX Type R runs with follow specs:
(Most of the mods comes from the german industry sponsors, some also from a famous californian guy)

Power: 320-340 PS
Weight: 1.200 kg
Fuel consumption: 10 Liter/ 25 km (one lap)
Fuel capacity: 100 L
Roll cage: Wiechers
Seat: Recaro pro racer SPA
Data recording: Stack
Indoor styling: SIEG design (prototype)
Steering wheel kit: DaliRacing
Wheels: BBS magnesium (3 piece) 18’’
Tires: Michelin
Brakes: Movit/Brembo kit with 343/32 and 332/32 drilled rotors,For the race slotted, 4 piston calipers
Suspension: Eibach racing suspension with double spring system
Sway bars: DaliRacing
Exhaust: Fujitsubo header and exhaust (prototype)
cf-Airbox: DaliRacing (APEXI airfilter inside)
cf air intake: DaliRacing
cf-fender scoop: DaliRacing
cf side vents: DaliRacing
Rear wing: from BMW M3 V8 GTR (Belcar series)
Lot of downforce, urgent if it will rain…
cf diffusor: DaliRacing

If the car will run without problems, an excellent result could be possible. I hope it.
Next year Honda plan to race with an japanese JGTC car.

Hi guys,

thx for your response.
Seems that you understand the sense.

Nevertheless the car got more power with the special racing exhaust system, a very special ECU from HONDA Japan
and the complete DaliRacing Air Intake, contents all what is good.
(More isnt possible without open the engine)
But HONDA Japan's wish was don't touching the engine.

For the BBS magnesium wheels they use a special centric system (A special hub with + 30mm lenght leads the wheel)
and special wheel studs (5x)
So that system seems to be durable.

For the SPA-Francorchamps experts:
Best lap time last monday at 1th roll out was: 2.38 minutes

The OEM suspension is tuned for the OEM unspringed measures.
Now all is bigger and heavier.
Also the slick tires have about 20% more grip level than OEM.
So the OEM suspension is overcharged very soon....
especially at northern loop

That means they need a stronger damper with an special ground
ventil, also the springs are much higher in rate.
The swaybars actually reached ~25 mm.

All in all we must wait to see the result.
But remember that the sport auto drivers are not really professional drivers.
So, the result will be never as good as it could be with some famous drivers.

But Armin Hahne shouldnt race with this car, he has killed to many NSX with his way to drive in the past.
The NSX-R is made for soft fast driving (round style), not for
drivers with the knife between the teeth.

P.S. One japanese technican inspected the cf side vents before installation.
He removed the OEM vents ( weight 1.150 g each and installed the Dali ones with 210 g each)
So....... question ?
What parts is worth to call it Type R ?

I bet that we will see that stuff at next NSX-R generation....

Hi guys,

surely as all in the world its a question of taste.
Please remember that this 24h project starts this year in february.
You all can imagine, how difficult it is getting parts (body parts) in this short time.
For the Type R spec its nearly impossible,

The car was parked by each manufacturer for long time, because the most of these parts are prototypes like the exhaust system.
Each manufacturer produced his part and got an article in the magazine after. Thats sponsoring.

So, the wing is incredible huge, maybe too huge.
But the NSX-R was in wind tunnel for two days
(FORD in Cologne, because HONDA Germany has no air tunnel) and all parts worked very well, also this wing has a much better aerodynamic and an incredible downforce like the OEM one.
Sounds incredible but its true,

Also the front bumper is nearly OEM style, only with some round adds for the brake cooling system.
It looks a little bit different, because the black silicone stripes between the parts (close the body gaps for a better aerodynamic) are too dominant.

At the pictures you cant see, hear and feel that car.
After a test drive your opinion about all would be different.
Than you would know why the car is like he is.
I saw that car last weekend and I was very impressed.
All this cf stuff is very nice.

I would take the car at once.

P.S. The german Honda R&D boss ( an japanese guy) said to the
team manager, that he did a great job.
And surely this man knows about what he speaks.

So, lets have fun to know tha this car exist.

I'll take my HONDA cap and jacket and I'll visit the race.
I know there is something special.

The NSX-R race car will stay in Germany.

GS Motorsport got the order from HONDA to repair the car.
I estimate the damage about 25-30.000 USD if they change all parts.

A new engine will be installed too, the old one will be shipped back to japan.
I know that the oil pressure at the end of the race was down, I suppose that the motor oil collapsed.
The gearbox will get a complete set of new synchronizer springs,
the old ones are gone.
The drivers have had problems to change the gears into the corners.... there was too much movement into the mounting rubbers. They was stock too.

You can take a look at the car this year at the IAA expo in Frankfurt.

This car will race at the 24h Nürburgring 2004 again.
A lot of time to update some details.

BTW: Hopefully Acura will honor the warranty if anything breaks on the ASC at the track. Unlike Porsche, Honda does not honor the warranty if something breaks in the car while the car is being driven on the track and it's track related.

Like S2K engines having oil starvation problems, as some folks found out the hard way

Kind of reminds me of Saleen not honoring the warranty on their S7's, a CA owner had his S7's engine seize up at Thunderhill a couple of years ago without even pushing the car hard, and he had to pretty much sue Saleen to get his engine repaired under warranty, yikes!

 

[S-TO-8K]

Like S2K engines having oil starvation problems, as some folks found out the hard way

On a side note:
a Toda dry-sump system for S2000 would cost $8k-10$k (a Spoon version to become available soon as well)

Will ASCC come with dry-sump and oil cooler?

 

[2slow2speed]

Not sure where the disagreement is. But, I think the unclear issue is "who buys $120k cars" -- that target market. That market will be, overall, just as likely to drop $100k or $150k. Not the penny scraper just dying to get into that used $120k F360 that he can't really afford. So +/- $10k won't matter much, and neither will maintenance as long as it's not absurd (new ones are warranty and Honda only cares about selling new ones). Generalizations....

The Z06 is not the same car as the M6 or Aston, and neither is the 911 GT3. Besides brand, the Z06 is a relatively lightweight track-oriented car. 911 GT3 is 100% track car.

I wouldn't buy a Z06 or GT3 for a daily commute, but I would buy an M6 for that. And that is the benchmark and target market. The 550 Maranello is this car's "competition" - something that is very fast, heavy, but pleasant for daily driving (but more reliable). The ASCC is NOT going to be a track car, and therefore, needs to be judged against similar high-performance-but-not-track-oriented-cars.

This car couldn't be more different from an NSX-R if it wanted to.

Totally agree, someone who considers a M6/AMV8/JaguarXKR is fundamentally a very different customer from someone that is looking at a track oriented car, from a purely marketing perspective Honda/Acura is doing the right thing by not chasing the Z06/GT3 market which is really small.

The ASC is probably going to be tailored for a customer that wants speed/luxury/comfort first and all around handling performance second.

 

[2slow2speed]

But Ken, by assume that I track my car, you are making Ass our of U and Me Yeah, I just gotta go there.lol

No, I don't track my car, and I don't intend to track my car. If I want to track a NSX, I will fix up a beater NSX and do that. I'm not crazy enough to risk a 100 grand car so I can see how fast I can go and try not to crash it.

Just like 99/% of the SUV owner that will not take their car off road, most of us will not take the sports on to a track. (Excluding drag strip).

Therefore, of course, I would buy a GT3 if I don't have my NSX. But I do have my NSX, therefore, I wouldn't buy a GT3.

Porsche is an over engineered car? I have to agree, but is it more over engineered then the NSX? Perhaps the Engine is, design more for track use, but I don't think the suspension and Chassis technology is better. Until 997, they were still pertty dangerous to drive.

Assume => Ass U or Me, LOL good one.

I totally agree with you, never track a car that you aren't prepared to walk away from.

But knowing how much of a big NSX fan that you are, I believe that you owe it to yourself and experience what the NSX is truely capable first hand if you haven't done that already. Go to a track event and ride with an experienced driver on their NSX, it will make you like your NSX even more (even make you consider getting another one so that you can play around with it a bit)

BTW: What makes the 997GT3 safer to drive than the 996GT3 is the availability of PSM on the 997GT3, the 996GT3 did not come with PSM (Porsche Save Me).

A RR car requires substantially more skill than a MR car, and that is what makes it challenging/fun/evil at times

AWD kind of takes that away, and that's one of the reasons that I'm put off by the ASC and it's SH-AWD, without the SH-AWD the ASC would be much lighter and have less components which in turn should make the car easier to design/build and be much more cost effective too.

 

[WingZ]

Maybe you need to go back and read again , the NA2-R had to undergo some serious modifications to be able to be competitive in it's class.

Sorry Ken when you said that oil starvation would cause the engine to fail or overheat and I was looking to see if they addressed that. From what I recall on your previous posts you did have some over heating problems and wanted to see if the car Detlef was talking about had them as well. So the Gt3's in this race needed no modifications to compete? Detlef didn't mention.

IIRC, the brakes were swapped to Movit (brembo), the suspension was modified, the aero package was modified with a big ass wing, in other words it wasn't stock.

BTW: The engine did not have starvation problems but the oil started to break down, more than likely it needed an oil cooler to keep the oil from degrading.

BTW: Hopefully Acura will honor the warranty if anything breaks on the ASC at the track. Unlike Porsche, Honda does not honor the warranty if something breaks in the car while the car is being driven on the track and it's track related.

Like S2K engines having oil starvation problems, as some folks found out the hard way

I have a buddy who's been racing his S2K for years and know he even runs track events and he's never mentioned oil starvation problems with his S2K. Of coure as men if something doesn't physically happen to us we tend not to talk about it..LOL Thanks for all the info. I wouldn't be too hard the ASC when I get it to the track just some laps as I couldn't pay that much money for a sportscar and not be able to see what it can do. Which isn't safe or fun on the streets especially with as much HP as they're talking.

Kind of reminds me of Saleen not honoring the warranty on their S7's, a CA owner had his S7's engine seize up at Thunderhill a couple of years ago without even pushing the car hard, and he had to pretty much sue Saleen to get his engine repaired under warranty, yikes!

That sucks

 

[FrEsHaZzBuRu]

The FR design was designated but is slated to compete with F430. Honda is expecting the car to perform like a MR platform with the SH-AWD.

OK, so I finally gave into Honda trying to build a different car to take the market with, but shouldn't they make it known they want to compete with GT cars like what was said about the M6 earlier? If they are truly trying to compete with the F430, then the car has to be an MR in order to actually be competitive with that car. It's like trying to build a team of basketball players to compete in the NFL, your going in with a big disadvantage. Does anyone else see this problem?

 

[WingZ]

OK, so I finally gave into Honda trying to build a different car to take the market with, but shouldn't they make it known they want to compete with GT cars like what was said about the M6 earlier? If they are truly trying to compete with the F430, then the car has to be an MR in order to actually be competitive with that car. It's like trying to build a team of basketball players to compete in the NFL, your going in with a big disadvantage. Does anyone else see this problem?

The rumour mill has been right so far that the next car would be a FR meant to compete with Aston Martin not Ferrari , although it is possible that the car will outperfrom the F430. Until specs are confirmed everything right now is just speculation. Funny ,but after the NSX I just can't see Acura selling a six figure car. That's a huge jump from their current top of the line RL which they have a hard time selling at sticker. Lexus at least has cars in the $70k range so $100k isn't to big of a jump ,but for Acura to go from $47k then $130k Don't get me wrong they usually beat the competition they're aiming for and a $130K DB9 beater would be bargain ,but they want to sell this next car and well I don't know best to wait and see.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Totally agree, someone who considers a M6/AMV8/JaguarXKR is fundamentally a very different customer from someone that is looking at a track oriented car, from a purely marketing perspective Honda/Acura is doing the right thing by not chasing the Z06/GT3 market which is really small.

The ASC is probably going to be tailored for a customer that wants speed/luxury/comfort first and all around handling performance second.

Yup, and I think that is why the R8 is fantastic and unique - a crossover between exotic mid engine track car (F430) and daily driveable luxury sportscar (SL55, M6, etc.). JUST LIKE THE NSX WAS ORIGINALLY. Early NSXs came with a cell phone, at a time when Ferraris barely had A/C. I can't wait to have an R8 at some point. Hope they fix the "dead steering feel" issue I have heard about though.

The interesting thing will be to see if the R8 dies after a few years the way the NSX did -- if so, then Honda will be vindicated for the NSX failure-criticism. It's possible that the "exotic, daily driveable luxury track car" market is all hype but with very few real buyers.

 

[BD]

Yup, and I think that is why the R8 is fantastic and unique - a crossover between exotic mid engine track car (F430) and daily driveable luxury sportscar (SL55, M6, etc.). JUST LIKE THE NSX WAS ORIGINALLY. Early NSXs came with a cell phone, at a time when Ferraris barely had A/C. I can't wait to have an R8 at some point. Hope they fix the "dead steering feel" issue I have heard about though.

The interesting thing will be to see if the R8 dies after a few years the way the NSX did -- if so, then Honda will be vindicated for the NSX failure-criticism. It's possible that the "exotic, daily driveable luxury track car" market is all hype but with very few real buyers.

It will be really sad and funny to see if the R8 is no more than a slightly faster version of the CaymanS for $40k more:biggrin:

 

[WingZ]

It will be really sad and funny to see if the R8 is no more than a slightly faster version of the CaymanS for $40k more:biggrin:

I will laugh my a$$ off if is. Hopefully we should see some instrumented tests soon:biggrin:

 

[Ski_Banker]

It will be really sad and funny to see if the R8 is no more than a slightly faster version of the CaymanS for $40k more:biggrin:

I wouldn't buy a Gayman even if it was. I hate those cars - don't care how nice they may drive. They just scream "Look at my Porsche even though I can't quite afford a 911." I guarantee 90% of its buyers aren't picking them up because they are mid engine.

I love the "boxfire" pic someone posted once, showing the resemblance to a mutant boxter and Plymouth crossfire. Too funny. I chuckle every time I see a Boxfire now.

 

[BD]

I wouldn't buy a Gayman even if it was. I hate those cars - don't care how nice they may drive. They just scream "Look at my Porsche even though I can't quite afford a 911." I guarantee 90% of its buyers aren't picking them up because they are mid engine.

I love the "boxfire" pic someone posted once, showing the resemblance to a mutant boxter and Plymouth crossfire. Too funny. I chuckle every time I see a Boxfire now.

It is true that how ugly the CaymanS is, at least in my opionion. But I highly doubt that the R8 will be that great of a car for what it is. Some have laughed at NSX when compare to C6 Z06, that will be a likly scenario when comparing that car to R8.

But anyway, I think the R8 Hype is over stated. I remember people were wowing over the TT for its styling, and it was a POS. R8 will get the same WOW effect, but at the end, it is still an Audi, a company who has not proven a thing in the world of auto racing, but want to join MB and BMW to get a share of the pie, but I think at the end, the R8 will not last lone in the market place, because it will still be a sub-par performance car when compare to 997TT and perhaps the ASC. In fact, I don't believe the R8 will be better than a CTSC NSX.

That said, I still have to wait for the car to come out before I know if I'm wrong or not.

 

[2slow2speed]

But anyway, I think the R8 Hype is over stated. I remember people were wowing over the TT for its styling, and it was a POS. R8 will get the same WOW effect, but at the end, it is still an Audi, a company who has not proven a thing in the world of auto racing, but want to join MB and BMW to get a share of the pie, but I think at the end, the R8 will not last lone in the market place, because it will still be a sub-par performance car when compare to 997TT and perhaps the ASC. In fact, I don't believe the R8 will be better than a CTSC NSX.

Hmm.. You probably need to start watching ALMS/LeMans, see who has been dominating in LMP1 for the past 5+ years with their R8/R10.

BTW: From the automakers that you mentioned it's MB that isn't really making performance vehicles, AMG's are a joke

P.S. I really hate the Audi TT and everything that it represents, but I'm still a bit more open minded about the R8

 

[BD]

Hmm.. You probably need to start watching ALMS/LeMans, see who has been dominating in LMP1 for the past 5+ years with their R8/R10.

BTW: From the automakers that you mentioned it's MB that isn't really making performance vehicles, AMG's are a joke

P.S. I really hate the Audi TT and everything that it represents, but I'm still a bit more open minded about the R8

Sorry to tell you this, if all Audi has going is in LeMans racing, I hope they do well, because that is nothing when comparing to JGTC, Indy, F1. Should I name more?

Just like I don't care for cars such as EVO/STI because the only thing they have going for them are Rally racing.

AMG's are joke? Don't kid your self. If Audi S series is better, they would have sold far more cars than AMG. In fact, there are more AMG cars out there than M power and S power cars. That said, I think they are all piece of shit, becuase I have always believed in the reliablity factor. None of them are reliable enought for me to want to own one of those. My big bro has a E39 M5 since 2001, while the performance and comfort is impressive, the reliablilty is a joke.

While the Technologies used in those racings are high, but at the end of the day, it is not close to be on par with the racing series I listed above.

Open minded is there, that is why I'm waiting for the R8 to hit the show room, just like most others should wait till ASC to hit the show room before making the final judgement.

AWD kind of takes that away, and that's one of the reasons that I'm put off by the ASC and it's SH-AWD, without the SH-AWD the ASC would be much lighter and have less components which in turn should make the car easier to design/build and be much more cost effective too.

BTW, I totally agree with you on this one, I will buy an ASC if they do a rear drive version. When I was younger, I worked for Honda. I own several Preludes and none of them has the ATTS system in it. I prefered lighter cars over overly assited cars.

 

[2slow2speed]

Sorry to tell you this, if all Audi has going is in LeMans racing, I hope they do well, because that is nothing when comparing to JGTC, Indy, F1. Should I name more?

Just like I don't care for cars such as EVO/STI because the only thing they have going for them are Rally racing.

AMG's are joke? Don't kid your self. If Audi S series is better, they would have sold far more cars than AMG. In fact, there are more AMG cars out there than M power and S power cars. That said, I think they are all piece of shit, becuase I have always believed in the reliablity factor. None of them are reliable enought for me to want to own one of those. My big bro has a E39 M5 since 2001, while the performance and comfort is impressive, the reliablilty is a joke.

FYI, I enjoy all forms of motorsports, even drag racing as well as watching a NASCAR race here and there now and then.

Each one of them has different requirements from both the vehicles/support crew as well as the drivers, all of them require skill and knowledge in order to be succesful and to be able to dominate, things don't happen by chance.

Cars that particpate in 12/24 hour enduros like ALMS/LeMans need to be well engineered in order for them to be fast/reliable/serviceable over a long period of time. Same thing for rally cars, those cars encounter some of the worst conditons and those that survive are amazing feats of engineering (same goes for the drivers).

Maybe I view things differently because I've participated in some form of motorsports every since I've been in college and I might be a bit more involved with my cars. For example, I gained a lot more respect for NASCAR after actually driving at speed at CA Speedway, and experiencing the track first hand. So we can agree to disagree if you wish.

AMG's are good for straight line acceleration and that's about it, they fall well behind other cars when turns are involved. That is the reason why I was stating that AMG's are a joke compared to BMW's and Audi's when it comes to performance (I include handling as part of performance, so maybe that is the source of our disagreement). Given that most people are ignorant and only care about straight line acceleration I'm not too surprised that AMG's sell well.

 

[Ski_Banker]

In conclusion:

Wingz doesn't know what he's talking about anyway. From what I hear, he drives like a girl. Danica Patrick???? No. Not that girl. He drives like the girl that stalled your car 6x while driving your drunk butt home.

:biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[WingZ]

In conclusion:

Wingz doesn't know what he's talking about anyway. From what I hear, he drives like a girl. Danica Patrick???? No. Not that girl. He drives like the girl that stalled your car 6x while driving your drunk butt home.

:biggrin: :biggrin:

As if you could get a girl to drive you anywhere:biggrin: