liftshard said:
It will go a long way in motivating me! Styling will be the other portion needed to hook my wallet.
Honda annouces intentions for a NSX successor
- Thread starter NSX-Tuner
- Start date
It will go a long way in motivating me! Styling will be the other portion needed to hook my wallet.
Re: Price considerations...
Remember that just because they said they would like to develop a V-10 for use in this new car doesn't mean it is done or will even happen. Remember when the S2000 was first shown at the Tokyo Motor Show (I forget which year) The car was called SSM and had a 5 cylinder engine, but was scrapped for a smaller and tighter 4 cylinder due to space and handling. They figured it was just a little too heavy. So we might end up seeing a V-8 in this car, but I bet it will be one hell of a V-8 though.
liftcontrol said:
Remember that just because they said they would like to develop a V-10 for use in this new car doesn't mean it is done or will even happen. Remember when the S2000 was first shown at the Tokyo Motor Show (I forget which year) The car was called SSM and had a 5 cylinder engine, but was scrapped for a smaller and tighter 4 cylinder due to space and handling. They figured it was just a little too heavy. So we might end up seeing a V-8 in this car, but I bet it will be one hell of a V-8 though.
NetViper said:
The engineering term given to the electronic differential in the '05 RL. The Prelude-SH did not have the same set up (let alone all wheel drive) and thus is not considered to have torque-vectoring.
Here is an excellent article from Ward's Auto-
Grip And Grin
By Bill Visnic
Ward's Auto World, Apr 1, 2005 Brought to you by:
All-wheel-drive was viewed as nothing less than a metaphysical advance when Audi AG introduced its quattro technology for road cars in 1980.
In the quarter century since, adaptation for all types of vehicles has fostered countless engineering variations, but the goal essentially is the same: distribute power to all four wheels to augment traction and security.
AWD provides undeniable worth in foul-weather conditions (and off-road, of course), and is a key attribute in the meteoric growth of SUV sales. Now, as buyers expand their horizons beyond SUVs into cross/utility vehicles and other car-based architectures, they want AWD along for the ride.
Witness AWD's recent proliferation into just about every market segment above subcompact cars.
From the start, though, Audi insisted AWD had another advantage: improved handling — even on dry tarmac. The auto maker made its point over the years by dominating several forms of racing, sometimes thrashing 2-wheel-drive competition so emphatically that AWD was banned.
In the real world, engineers and enthusiasts agree AWD usually is superior to either front-wheel drive or rear-wheel-drive in wet, ice and snow, but they debate AWD's ability to “improve” handling or cornering behavior on dry roads.
Mechatronic technology, until now largely unheralded, advances AWD to a new level of dynamic ability far beyond its reputation as a traction enabler for foul-weather driving.
That technology has a name: torque vectoring. The engineering that enables torque vectoring is not uncharted territory, but a new showcase, the Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD) system that's standard for Honda Motor Co. Ltd.'s '05 Acura RL sedan, has grabbed the attention of driveline and chassis engineers and buyers.
Whether attributable to SH-AWD or not, the new RL is burning rubber on the sales figures of the prior-generation Acura flagship.
Torque vectoring — engineers at multinational engineering specialist Ricardo plc claim to have coined the term — is the practice of enabling the AWD driveline to actively increase the rotational speed of one axle — or in the case of Acura's SH-AWD, a single wheel, even — to enhance handling.
Think of it as the industry's now-ubiquitous stability control system — which selectively brakes an individual wheel to affect handling — in reverse.
In a corner, Acura's torque-vectoring SH-AWD system will “overspeed” the rear axle, then channel a disproportionate amount of that torque to the outside rear wheel, generating an inward yaw that pushes the car more resolutely into the corner — and helping to offset the tendency of AWD/FWD vehicles to understeer, or push away from the corner. The system also can stabilize oversteer situations, such as when the throttle is abruptly shut while cornering.
Whether in low-traction conditions or in the dry, many who have driven the Acura RL say SH-AWD's performance adds an eye-opening new dimension for AWD. Toss the RL into a corner and bury the throttle: The aggressive torque transfer between rear wheels creates the driving sensation of a car on rails.
The RL's torque-vectoring system has auto maker and supplier engineers buzzing. Some debate the technology's ultimate impact from a volume perspective, but most agree torque-vectoring is a formidable new advance in AWD development.
More telling, perhaps: Almost every auto maker and AWD-connected supplier is actively evaluating torque-vectoring AWD technology.
“There's a lot of interest around at the moment,” says Ben Reynolds, chief engineer, AWD driveline systems, Ricardo Driveline and Transmission Systems. Ricardo, he says, currently is developing torque-vectoring AWD for a vehicle that will be in the market “sooner than later,” and “several major Tier 1s are active in the field.”
For Audi, the big daddy of AWD in the premium market, torque vectoring plays a definite role in future quattro development programs.
Ulrich Hackenberg, head of concept development and body engineering for Audi AG, says Audi is working to integrate torque vectoring with its foundation quattro AWD system. If you can selectively apply torque, “you can get the maximum” from AWD, he says.
“We are working with (torque vectoring) demonstrators internally,” Hackenberg says, adding he has driven the Acura RL and found the SH-AWD technology impressive. “We will not stand still (with conventional quattro AWD). We have to improve ourselves.”
BorgWarner Inc., one of the largest AWD/4WD suppliers in the world, also has an eye on torque vectoring, says Dave Bruder, chief engineer of the TorqueTransfer Systems division.
Bruder tells Ward's BorgWarner is in “a (torque-vectoring) development program with an OE,” but declines to name the auto maker. The vehicle likely is a sport sedan.
Ricardo's Reynolds says one of the next production vehicles to sport torque-vectoring AWD is expected to be from a German auto maker in '07. That torque-vectoring system will not be Ricardo's design, he adds.
To appreciate torque vectoring's advantages, it's best to understand “conventional” AWD systems currently available. Disregarding their method of actuation and other system-specific peculiarities, most AWD systems rely on a couple of basic underlying principles.
First, many conventional AWD systems that always have some amount of drive being applied to all four wheels rely on gears, clutch packs or some other differential mechanism to generate a fixed torque split, or “bias,” between front and rear axles.
Audi's quattro, for example, employs a Torsen center differential with a 50/50 torque bias. That means, in normal conditions, 50% of drive torque is applied to the front axle and 50% to the rear. This type of system often is referred to as “permanent” AWD.
Many Japanese AWD systems, as well as the Haldex system used by Volvo Cars, Ford Motor Co. and Volkswagen AG, typically are not designed to drive all four wheels when extra traction is not required.
These “part-time” systems usually place a differential on or ahead of the axle not normally employed as a drive axle, i.e. the rear axle of a Toyota RAV4, which in non-AWD format is front-drive only. Driving down the straight, dry road, a RAV4 is sending no drive torque to the rear axle. A Haldex-equipped AWD vehicle might be the same, or perhaps transfer a nominal 5% to the rear axle.
But what happens when a wheel, or wheels, start to spin? It's important to realize today's standard AWD systems — regardless of how their differentials work and regardless of their default torque split — are designed only to equalize the speed of both axles and the wheels on those axles.
Let's say one of a quattro-equipped vehicle's front wheels hits ice. The system deduces that wheel is spinning faster than the others. The center differential shifts torque from the front axle to the rear axle, until the rotational speed of each wheel is equalized. Limited-slip differentials or traction control also can aid the AWD system in equalizing the speed of a spinning wheel or wheels.
This action is passive in comparison to a torque-vectoring AWD system, which actively increases the rotational speed of a wheel, or axle, to offset a loss of traction or to improve handling performance.
Acura's SH-AWD employs a collection of electromagnetic clutches and planetary gears in an elegant and complex rear differential unit that effectively handles both the front/rear torque split (70% front/30% rear is default) and the side-to-side apportioning of torque (either rear wheel can accept from 0 to 100%) that plays a critical role in achieving the torque-vectoring effect.
It is not an inexpensive unit.
And cost is one of torque-vectoring's unavoidable drawbacks. Price is what will keep the technology in the realm of premium vehicles.
“It's definitely a niche-type product,” says Vern Jones, director of business development at BorgWarner's TorqueTransfer Systems.
He says any torque-vectoring system is going to be “complex and expensive.”
“AWD on its own isn't enough any more,” to be a differentiator in upscale market segments, says Jonathan Wheals, chief engineer, Ricardo Driveline and Transmission Systems.
He says one of Ricardo's chief development goals is to design a torque-vectoring system with “actuation technology at a reduced cost.” Ricardo is working on a novel design that uses a geared system with clutches and magnetorheologic fluid.
James M. Baumbick, chief vehicle engineer, Medium/Large FWD/AWD platforms at Ford Motor Co., says Ford currently regards torque vectoring as an extremely cost-prohibitive system, for which buyers would be unwilling to pay, in higher-volume applications where Ford is seeking to proliferate AWD.
He points to the RL's comparatively ambitious price tag — $49,100 — as evidence the cost of the system is being passed along to the buyer.
Audi's Hackenberg says any decision to invest in torque-vectoring technology will be based on a careful cost-benefit analysis, but the company that's built its reputation on AWD engineering ultimately “will do the right thing for the customer.”
He says Audi sees much of the cost potentially coming from the need for increased onboard data-handling capability. A torque-vectoring AWD system could demand a significant upgrade in data-handling architecture, he says.
Matt Karaba, vehicle controls performance engineer for General Motors Corp.'s Cadillac Sigma series, says torque vectoring might add 20%-30% more integration effort.
Ricardo's Wheals says software controls are important for robust integration with the vehicle. One chief concern, he says, is in how software would be “de-commissioned” if overheated, say on the racetrack, or in the event of a component failure.
As torque-vectoring applications make their way from development to production, the technology likely will see a variety of engineering and marketing efforts.
An Acura spokesman says the auto maker is backing its torque-vectoring SH-AWD system as a market differentiator. Acura confirmed its upcoming RD-X compact CUV will have SH-AWD, and the spokesman says Acura will “seriously consider SH-AWD for other products as well.”
Expect to see torque vectoring emerge in the next few years for high-end or performance vehicles, says Karaba, adding the technology is “on our radar screen,” but Cadillac has yet to commit to a production system.
Torque vectoring is an important innovation for either type of vehicle because “you can affect vehicle dynamics without cutting power,” he says, referring to contemporary stability-control systems that influence handling through a combination of curbing drive torque and applying the brakes.
Ricardo's Reynolds agrees torque vectoring's best advantage is its active nature.
“(Stability control) is very interventionist.” He says when stability-control systems activate to affect handling, “it doesn't necessarily feel good. It's a common complaint” that doesn't go down well with premium-vehicle customers.
“Brakes have the capability to apply a lot of torque,” adds BorgWarner's Bruder. “It's hard to do that in a seamless fashion.” Torque vectoring, he says, is “stability control turned upside down.”
The ideal application, he adds, probably is an AWD performance car — where torque vectoring can help generate a more entertaining “oversteer tendency.”
Finally, there's a spectrum of methods to achieve the torque-vectoring effect. Acura's SH-AWD is a high-end approach, most say. Ricardo's engineers say they have worked with systems that deliver similar effects with a torque-vectoring device to overspeed just one axle, or with “cross-axle” systems that can increase the rotational speed of individual wheels.
Honda's fifth-generation Prelude (launched in the U.S. in '97) used an optional system dubbed Active Torque Transfer System (ATTS) that effectively generated cross-axle torque vectoring at the front axle. When cornering, the system could shift 80% of the drive torque to the outside front wheel, and overspeed that wheel by as much as 15%.
In markets other than North America, Mitsubishi's Lancer Evolution employs a torque-vectoring differential at the rear axle. Nissan's high-performance Skyline GT-R also has an AWD system that effectively vectors torque.
Wheals says Ricardo is focused on developing a torque-vectoring system that is less costly by employing low actuation torque and can be disconnected when not required, cutting cost and enhancing durability. But Ricardo has no particular preference on whether a torque-vectoring unit overspeeds the axle, or individual wheels.
“We're looking at both,” says BorgWarner's Bruder. “We have a little more experience with side-to-side.”
He adds that there's also nothing to stop torque-vectoring technology from being used in vehicles — largely fullsize pickups and SUVs — with traditional transfer-case AWD systems, invoking one additional prospect for torque vectoring: Its potential as a stability-control system, particularly for high-center-of-gravity vehicles typically already fitted with AWD.
“You've already got ESP (electronic stability control) to do that,” asserts Wheals. But Audi's Hackenberg counters, “In the final stages (of development), it can be a safety feature. It's something we are thinking of.”
Price and esoteric functionality, however, are likely to combine to relegate torque vectoring to narrow market segments. Many engineers say a vehicle has to be driven hard to derive torque-vectoring benefits — so unless the system is fitted to some type of sport sedan (such as the RL) or performance car, the benefit would be lost on a typical customer.
“It's a performance-enhancing device,” Bruder sums up.
“It can improve limit-handling capability,” says Cadillac's Karaba.
Ricardo's Reynolds is more bullish.
“In a decade's time, (torque vectoring will be as common as) air conditioning,” he says.
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NSX-Tuner said:
I would think they will keep the mid engine and longitudinal mount the V10. However, say good bye to the little trunk we now have as it probably will be deleted otherwise the rear end would be much too long.
V10 =
just hope they break the 200 Lb Tq 
Armando
Armando
Let's say the V-10 puts out 500 hp and it also has a feature like the new M5/M6 that can swith to a mode of "only" 400 hp at the touch of a button.
If one were to supercharge a car like that, would you be able to switch between 2 different "map" settings and have say, 700hp and 600hp respectively?
If one were to supercharge a car like that, would you be able to switch between 2 different "map" settings and have say, 700hp and 600hp respectively?
White92 said:
Probably. That said, I was not overly crazy about the HSC. However, with a few minor tweaks (rear spoiler, front nose)... HSC'esque styling would be much more appealing to me.
If the V10 makes it to market, I imagine it will be a beautifully crafted flat crank/high-reving beast that will put a tremendous amount of power to the ground and control it with future version of sh-awd. Sounds like a winner to me. Who knows, we may even get a cupholder out of this one? :biggrin:
White92 said:
Not very easy to do with a supercharger because the pulley size needs to be altered. However, substitute in a turbo & electronic boost controller you could do that quite easily. For example, with my setup I could actually run 4 different power settings... although I only run 2 since I'm currently not looking to go beyond 550rwhp.
ChrisK said:
To be an everyday supercar, it would need a trunk IMO. I guess they could do it the way Ferrari and Lambo do it. While not huge, the current trunk is very useful.
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UDATE -- More Info:
Honda says it will build a V10 engine; new powerplant scheduled for NSX replacement - - YUZO YAMAGUCHI | Automotive News - - Source: Autoweek
TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co. has long maintained that it wouldn't develop a V8 production engine.
But it now says it will develop a V10.
Honda will install the powerful engine in a successor of the current NSX sports car, which is powered by a V6. Production of the current NSX will stop at the end of this year.
The V10 will be more powerful than any other engine Honda has built for its production vehicles.
The NSX successor will debut in "three to four years," says Takeo Fukui, Honda's president. He would not elaborate the plan. The new sports car will be sold worldwide.
It isn't known if Honda plans to use the V10 in any other vehicles."What we're aiming at next is not a V8 but a V10," says Motoatsu Shiraishi, president of Honda R&D Co., Honda's engineering arm. "We've got to be the top of a top (group) in producing engines."
Honda says it will build a V10 engine; new powerplant scheduled for NSX replacement - - YUZO YAMAGUCHI | Automotive News - - Source: Autoweek
TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co. has long maintained that it wouldn't develop a V8 production engine.
But it now says it will develop a V10.
Honda will install the powerful engine in a successor of the current NSX sports car, which is powered by a V6. Production of the current NSX will stop at the end of this year.
The V10 will be more powerful than any other engine Honda has built for its production vehicles.
The NSX successor will debut in "three to four years," says Takeo Fukui, Honda's president. He would not elaborate the plan. The new sports car will be sold worldwide.
It isn't known if Honda plans to use the V10 in any other vehicles."What we're aiming at next is not a V8 but a V10," says Motoatsu Shiraishi, president of Honda R&D Co., Honda's engineering arm. "We've got to be the top of a top (group) in producing engines."
:biggrin:
Hi
Damn. WTF V10? Okey who is buying one in Europe so I can plan my vacation and go visit the lucky one?
Regards
Damn. WTF V10? Okey who is buying one in Europe so I can plan my vacation and go visit the lucky one?
Regards
Osiris_x11
Gold Member, Moderator: Marketplace
V10 swap in CRX, lol...!
hmmm... So does this essentially rule-out any hybrid/elec. powered offering
It's so ironic to see the development of these V10's as F1 is poised to shift it's motors to V8's in a year or so! [BMW's V10, Honda's presumed V10, etc]
hmmm... So does this essentially rule-out any hybrid/elec. powered offering
It's so ironic to see the development of these V10's as F1 is poised to shift it's motors to V8's in a year or so! [BMW's V10, Honda's presumed V10, etc]
liftshard said:
I share your skeptisism - I have long been disappointed with Honda's handling of the NSX. But I believe that they have a shot to make the NSX commercially viable if they:
1) Continually update the car. Mid-cycle updates and a generational cycle similar to Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette (new model every 5-7 years, not 18 years).
2) Offer variants. Corvette has the coupe, convertible and Z06. Ferrari as the coupe, spyder, Challenge, and C/S. Porsche has a whole mess of 911 variants. The one-size-fits-all approach is too limiting.
3) Price agressively (relatively speaking) and then bump the price up commeasurate with demand. It worked for Lexus - and average selling price of Lexus cars is much higher than Acura cars. Don't price high and then have to resort to discounts almost immediately (as Honda is currently doing with the new RL).
4) Coddle NSX owners. When I first got my car, I was invited to an Acura event at Lyndhurst Castle in New York. Classy, I thought. Then NSXPO 97 and Acura was there in force. Nice, I thought. NSXPO 98 and we toured Honda's factory in Ohio and the workers there treated us like celebs. But then it all stopped. Was Acura/Honda at NSXPO last fall? Why not bring us some new RL's to test drive, or even look at? They lost my name in their computer - recovered but now they call my Larry (my name is Tom) despite all attempts to correct the error.
If they do all of this, they might be able to carve out a niche of loyal buyers.
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Re: V10 swap in CRX, lol...!
Most people here hear "V10" and probably think of a conventional V10 engine. Remember how advanced for it's time the C30A engine was (variable intake runners, VTEC, Titanium Con Rods,...) ?
I've posted it before on this forum somewhere, that I was told this "V10" will be just as amazing as the V6 was in 1991. I do not have many details from my sources, but when the NSX's successor drivetrain is qualified as an "amazing engine", I have every reason to believe them.
Osiris_x11 said:hmmm... So does this essentially rule-out any hybrid/elec. powered offering
Most people here hear "V10" and probably think of a conventional V10 engine. Remember how advanced for it's time the C30A engine was (variable intake runners, VTEC, Titanium Con Rods,...) ?
I've posted it before on this forum somewhere, that I was told this "V10" will be just as amazing as the V6 was in 1991. I do not have many details from my sources, but when the NSX's successor drivetrain is qualified as an "amazing engine", I have every reason to believe them.
I'm telling my wife to cancel all the birthday and Xmas presents for the next 4 years and save it for this. Besides, my son will need a car by then and the NSX would make a great hand-me-down.
Think my plan will work? What's yours?
Think my plan will work? What's yours?
headshot99r6 said:
Why don't you send them your money and find out! :biggrin:
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