Harness opinions

[TURBO2GO]

I have bought a used harness bar for my car. I need to get belts along with a HANS type device, but have decided to use my factory seats, at least for now. I find them to be very comfortable if not 100% supportive, but also convenient, and I like their look in silverstone leather.

Question is what to do with a harness. I have had some conflicting advice and just want some more opinion here.

I have been told a 4 point is pretty darn good for a street driven car that sees a few track days a year. A 6 point will require attachment to the seat. Ti Dave makes a sub bar for this.

I have also been told doing this is dangerous, and to just stick with a 4.

Do any of you have any opinions on this? Seems like a 4 point and hans/helmet is a whole world safer than 3 point and airbag anyway... is the sub belt really an issue?

 

[RSO 34]

There are pros and cons with every setup in a street car so you need to evaluate the risk potential and decide on which side of the fence you will end up on the issue. I use a 5 point with a sub belt using Dave's sub bar and stock seats except for race cushions cut for the sub belt.

I have always been told that this is dangerous in a rollover without a cage but my risk assessment has been that a rollover for me was less likely that contact with a guard rail or another vehicle and I wanted the sub to avoid sliding forward. But I did that understanding that a rollover could be worsened by use of a sub without a cage but I wanted to minimize risk of injury in what I felt was a "more likely" contingency than a rollover.

Just my .02. Your mileage may vary.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Why would a sub belt be worse in a rollover?

I was just told that attaching the sub belt to the stock seat is not a good idea. I don't even know what that has to do with the seat being stock. I mean where would it normally attach? I saw Frasier's build and it looks like he attached it to the body but had to fortify the location.

 

[RSO 34]

As long as you use a racing cushion or any cushion with a cutout for the sub belt together with Dave's bar I don't think that a "stock seat" is the issue.

I have been told that a sub belt without a cage is dangerous in rollover since it will keep you in place as the car rolls thereby increasing risk of head/neck injuries in the event of a roof collapse. I believe the "theory" is that without the sub belt you may be able to slide down intentionally and avoid the roof collapse.

 

[docjohn]

Dave we beat this topic to death on several old harness bar /cage/rollover threads in the past and the posts by rso above pretty much is a good reduction of the sauce....

 

[TURBO2GO]

Yeah I get the whole harness/roof collapse issue, I am not trying to rehash that. So that's the reason for avoiding a sub belt attached to the seat? I seriously doubt that strapped into a 4 point your body will "slide under" to save your neck on B Pillar collapse. I think if that B collapses, it is taking your head with it.

So there is no other reason why attaching a sub belt to a seat is "dangerous"?

Do you guys just sit with the harness belts under you on the street and use the lap belt or do you put them behind the seat?

The main reason I am doing this is I really feel the need to have a neck restraint device more than anything. Plus I just am not that fond of a 3 point anywhere. I think there is a huge "convenience" factor into a 3 point belt... but if you watch any crash videos they just kind of suck. The body is flying all over the place. Arms flailing, legs flying... belt giving and giving... in comparison anything with a 4 point plus seems pretty well controlled. I too, like Bob feel I prefer to have a harness/helmet/HNR than to have a 3 point because of rollover worry. I am just trying to decide if I should get a 4 point or a 6. I use the dali type cushion with the cutout already.

 

[Liquid]

My $.02 - definitely go with a 5 or 6 point belt. I'll explain in more detail the underlying rationale next time we get together.

 

[TURBO2GO]

What is your sub belts mount to?

 

[RSO 34]

What is your sub belts mount to?

The sub belt mounts to the Titanium Dave sub bar which goes under your seat and is mounted to the seat rails.

PM LarryB if you need any since he has extra new ones "in stock" from when he was installing them in our cars.

 

[docjohn]

for the billionth time mine is bolted to the floor pan and goes through the seat bottom and oem cushion ,I like my setup.The belts are stuffed behind the seat and the sub belt I just let fall forward when not in use.

 

[Liquid]

If you were asking me, mine are bolted to the seat rails but I have a different application since my floor is balsa wood and carbon fiber. As I was telling you, the problems with modifications is figuring out how do all of these parts from different manufacturers fit together within your specific platform. The importance of this is magnified a thousandfold when talking about safety devices.

 

[Hrant]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?p=603112&highlight=Hrant+Harness+belt#post603112


The four points option is your weakest link :wink:

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Got some nice used Schroth HANS belts for ya

I just took a set of Profi-II6 HANS out of my car only because they're out of date for competition:

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/schroth-competition-belts/profi/profi-ii

I posted pics back in 2003 about how to mount a 6 point harness in the NSX without cutting seats, drilling floor pans or anything else. Let me know if you can't find them.

They're good as new. Oh wait, this will probably be a fatal flaw; they're blue.

Edit: I'm putting them on the Parts For Sale page. $195.

 

[RStom - Hungary]

Re: Got some nice used Schroth HANS belts for ya

I posted pics back in 2003 about how to mount a 6 point harness in the NSX without cutting seats, drilling floor pans or anything else. Let me know if you can't find them.

Can not find it :-( It seems that I'm not good at search.....

 

[92 white 0650]

Go here.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18729&highlight=5+point+harness+stock+seats

 

[TURBO2GO]

Man that was a long and intense read... my brain is smoking...

So I take it Hrant is running a 6 point now with the 5&6 mounted to the harness bar traveling under the the legs, and Ti Dave is using his sub belt bar?I didn't really see a consensus as to which was better.

Im also wondering... I do not secure either of my seat cushions (Dali or stock) because I just pull one out and put the other in. They are not completely loose, but they are not secured by any means. Is this a safety issue? I have seen people velcro the dali cusion but really that can't be that strong.

 

[Liquid]

That's a very odd question my friend. Nothing is secured to the seat cushion. The belts should be secured to the frame (perhaps through the rails which are then secured to the frame). The seat cushion won't go anywhere if the belts are secured properly, because that would mean that you would be going somewhere first, which would mean the whole restraint system wouldn't be doing its job.

 

[Hrant]

Man that was a long and intense read... my brain is smoking...

So I take it Hrant is running a 6 point now with the 5&6 mounted to the harness bar traveling under the the legs, and Ti Dave is using his sub belt bar?I didn't really see a consensus as to which was better.

Im also wondering... I do not secure either of my seat cushions (Dali or stock) because I just pull one out and put the other in. They are not completely loose, but they are not secured by any means. Is this a safety issue? I have seen people velcro the dali cusion but really that can't be that strong.

Dave, Dave, Dave .......... funny how we come back to old threads:wink:

Yes I am using the 6 point as described. I think given all the options and scenarios, Ted got it right back then. When the belst are tight, there is no submarine effect that I can sense nor a lift. As to which is better, the TiDave approach or the one I have, I think it boils down to 6 vs half dozen especially if don't need a cushion to sit on. The one key for TiDave's option you have to make sure that there is no room for potential submarine - ie if your physique is small/petite this could be a problem (I know your is not the case).

Regarding the removable seat cushion not being secured, again this boils down to what is the potential that on heavy breaking it will submarine. I know you can tuck the rear quarter tight and when you put most of your weight on the seat it holds it down, but, there is always that "risky but" for those who like to worry :tongue:

 

[TURBO2GO]

So Hrant you never went with the 7 point?

OK I won't worry about the seat cushion. I just thought it may slide out from under me in a crash. But I guess liquid is right, the belts are what hold you.

Ted, why'd you have to get blue man... any other color and I would have bought them. LOL

Expired belts don't matter for HPDE's, right? I've never seen a club check that. Only the helmet.

 

[docjohn]

Dave I think we have all seen driver changes in many pro series were there is a big discrepency in driver size and they use loose removable cushions/shells to fit the different body habitus.as long as the expired belts are not faded/frayed/torn you should be all right.

 

[Liquid]

Expired belts don't matter for HPDE's, right? I've never seen a club check that. Only the helmet.

They expire for a reason. From what I understand, the harness material is very sensitive to light and degrades over time with exposure.

These are the only thing holding you on to the car. You're already taking some risk by replacing a well tested factory setup with something custom. Theorhetically, you are more than offsetting the risk you are taking with the system you put in. I say theorhetically because it hasn't been rigorously tested like the factory setup. My advice to you is don't take an unnecessary additional risk to try to save some money and then find out just exactly right when you need it that it is too brittle or otherwise compromised to work properly in an incident.

 

[TURBO2GO]

They expire for a reason. From what I understand, the harness material is sensitive to light and degrades with too much exposure.

These are the only thing holding you on to the car. You're already taking some risk by replacing a well tested factory setup with something custom. Theorhetically, you are more than offsetting the risk you are taking with the system you put in. I say theorhetically because it hasn't been rigorously tested like the factory setup. My advice to you is: Don't take a silly additional risk to try to save some money and then find out just exactly right when you need it that it is too brittle or otherwise compromised to work properly in an incident.

Yeah... OK.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Harnesses/age/exposure..........

I find these scenarios interesting

1. I cannot race a Toyota Corolla with a brand new-never-out-of-the-box set of belts made in 2005, but.......

2. I can drive a 800 HP project car in an HPDE with stock DOT 3 point belts that have been exposed to the sun every single day over the past 30 years.

3. The FAA and the United Parachute Association have never put dates on parachute harnesses, parachutes (including reserves) or any equipment except automatic activation devices. They let parachute riggers (the equivalent of race tech inspectors) simply visually inspect and decide if the equipment is airworthy or not. My rig (harness/container) and reserve parachute are 20 years old and I will, once again, not worry about them when I jump this weekend. I have a buddy whose rig and main parachute (read; lots of UV exposure) are 30 years old.

Regulations don't alway make sense. And don't get me started on the logic of motorcycle laws. ROFLMAO. :biggrin:

 

[Hrant]

I don't want to digress too afar field from the original topic, but as we have said at nausea before, it all boils down to risk management if not risk tolerance.

Using previous posts here is some humor:

1) The brakes are the most important thing since that will stop your car. Don't cheap out by compromising. But wait, why stop with pads when you can get BBK. Ah, the BBK, which has more torque? Well is torque more important or balanced brake bias? Can I have both at bargain basemen mt price? Why can't someone m,make one for the NSX community like ........

2) And since brakes are important, don't cheap out by not changing your brake fluid regularly, ie the "I change mine after each session ..... do you really want to risk and find out at the track that you boiled your fluid coming down the straight at some xxx mph?! I use brand X and I swear all racers use it too!" I have an open used bottle from last year that I am happy to sell it to you; you pay shipping and PayPal.

3) And to stop the car "man you need sticky tires." The tires are the most important thing for they give you traction and what keeps you on the road are the tires right?! Don't cheap out by compromising; "I read the tests results on Tire Brack and Road and Brack and they said this X brand is the best performer." But wait, didn't Billy post something else about tire performance and preferences?

4) Well you can't track without proper suspension tuning. I'll let Billy pick up the rest of the story ........ ah the KW3 deals.

5) "OMG, you are tracking with no restraining system? You really need a carbon Kevlar seat to absorb the whatever g forces you will encounter." Since Ted reads all the footnotes in all the safety publications, he will pitch on this one hereon end ........

6) Oh wait a minute, in the probability that you will have an incident, there is a possibility that you may flip over. "It would be stupid to track without a roll cage!" And now we can discuss what a functional roll cage will look like ...... I leave it to STMPO to argue the benefits of structural designs.

6) Did I say roll cage, well then, you need an 8 point aftermarket harness since we are talking about your life and the SO people you leave behind. Wait, you have kids !!!

7) What kids, oh yes I have a few ........ "well did you get an insurance umbrella to cover your hobby? How much is the deductible? Seems like a racket no? Can I pay in installments or only if I actually end up having a crash otherwise I am taking all the financial hit man; the economy sucks."

We are still talking about a hobby right? Not racing right

So when was the last time you left the house and looked at the statistical probabilities that if your left foot left the door first, the "chance" that you will fall or stumble was higher than if your right foot left first?! Just saying :biggrin: :tongue:

 

[Coz]

LOL...that's funny Hrant.