Frist drive of HONDA HSC!!

[NetViper]

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=232805

Turbo baby!!


Size: 4.25m long x 1.9m wide x 1.14m high (167.32inch long x 74.8inch wide x 45inch high)
Engine: 400hp 3.5L turbocharged (variable vane geometry!)
Top Speed: a little more than 300km/h or 188mph
Weight: 1410kg or 3100lb
Wheels: 20inch with Brembo brakes

 

[Tom Larkins]

How reliable is this mag.

 

[Enzo]

Turbocharged !!!!! Not a good news !!!!!

It's the confirmation that my next sportscar will be a Lambo or a Ferrari

 

[NetViper]

Re: Re: Frist drive of HONDA HSC!!

Turbocharged !!!!! Not a good news !!!!!

It's the confirmation that my next sportscar will be a Lambo or a Ferrari

I don't understand why you say that.

A lot of ex-owners that sell their NSX's do it for 911 Turbos. Why? The Power..

After being in the Factor X Turbo, I can say it totally rocks!

I am not sure why you would not like that?

 

[Ojas]

How reliable is this mag.

Either something is lost in the translation or the article must not be very credible:

The poster states the HSC weighs 1410kg and has 400hp, followed by this statement "...the HSC has about the same power as the FERRARI 360 Modena but a far better weight/power ratio!"

The 360 Modena weighs ~1390kg (curb weight with no driver) and has ~395hp. 0.1% better weight to power is not my idea of "far better weight/power ratio!" Of course, it's possible the HSC was weighed with driver. Even so, the power-to-weight improvement would be well under 5%.

 

[NetViper]

Either something is lost in the translation or the article must not be very credible:

The poster states the HSC weighs 1410kg and has 400hp, followed by this statement "...the HSC has about the same power as the FERRARI 360 Modena but a far better weight/power ratio!"

The 360 Modena weighs ~1390kg (curb weight with no driver)and has ~395hp. 0.1% better weight to power is not my idea of "far better weight/power ratio!" Of course, it's possible the HSC was weighed with driver. Even so, the power-to-weight improvement would be well under 5%.

Certainly, off what the stats are, the power-to-weight does not seem much better at all than a 360. It would be close to the new vette..

 

[Enzo]

Re: Re: Re: Frist drive of HONDA HSC!!

I don't understand why you say that.

A lot of ex-owners that sell their NSX's do it for 911 Turbos. Why? The Power..

It's just me !

I had several cars with turbo and I promised myself to never buy a turbo car again.

If I was interested to sell my NSX for a Porsche, it would be for the GT3 rather than the Turbo.

The power is one thing, the method used to obtain it is the most important for me and turbo is a really CHEAP method in my opinion.

No offense for those with supercharged or turbo NSX, it's just my opinion.

 

[hlweyl]

It's the ole turbo vs NA argument again. Turbos are a very efficient way of making big horsepower.

Hopefully if they do go turbo route, they make the power very linear which is one of the drawbacks to turbo cars.

I say whatever it takes to make the HSC a fire-breathing, viper-eating beast... go for it!

 

[Sig]

If Honda does choose to go the turbo route, I am sure they will do it the right way.

Should be interesting.

 

[danpiu]

hello enzo (david)
I totally agree with you !!!!
Turbo is a very cheap method to increase the power. (see avarage Audis, porsches, and the rest of that ****...)
If Honda is going Turbo, they will lose a very faithful customer over years.
Otherwise, HSC will be my next car beside my unsalable NSX!


TURBO is not HONDA, and HONDA is not TURBO!!!!!

Please Fukui, don't decide such a crap!!!
Your Engineers recently built the best and most powerful engine in Formula 1 for Jenson's B.A.R.-Team,... now you have to prove that in a street car again!

 

[Ponyboy]

Bah! on all that anti-turbo fecal matter. Bring on the turbo! Honda produced the best turbo engine in the world and will, hopefully, once again.

Imagine a high output turbo engine with Honda reliability. Let's just hope it's robust enough to handle a bit more hp.

 

[Johnny@JETZ]

A naturally aspirated motor of 400hp or more (from 3.5L) should be quite "doable" in Honda's technology showcase.

 

[NetViper]

A naturally aspirated motor of 400hp or more (from 3.5L) should be quite "doable" in Honda's technology showcase.

I would agree with that. But I think Honda realizes to compete with 500HP supercars, they are going to need one of two things:
1) A V8 or V10
2) a turbo

Since honda doesn't make a V8/10, I think turbo is their only option.

Like i have said before, I think it would be great if they took the Porsche approach with a lower cost NA model and a high-end turbo model...

we'll see.

 

[chriswtx]

It would be nice to see a 3.5L turbo with a big intercooler and strong internals that makes 400hp/450TQ from the factory at 5psi. Then all you need is a boost controller set at 10psi and this would equal a 500hp monster. I love turbo cars that are built right and have the properly sized turbo that has boost starting at the 2000rpm ranges. Makes your V6 feel like a V12. And who says turbos are cheap? Ferrari has used turbos from the late 70's including on their F1 cars....

 

[MAKO]

Viper turned me on to this thread, and it's all very interesting.

But without price estimates it's limiting.

If this HSC is built as described by CAR, and carries a $100k MSRP, then it's not very interesting. Not sure I'd choose it over a 911 GT3 at the same range even, which is a car that's already on the market. And I certainly wouldn't choose it over a 500HP pre-owned Gallardo with say 5k miles on the clock and a used price tag of $140k in a year's time. The G is worth the $40k+ surcharge and the mileage penalty in my book, just for the V10 alone.

However, if the HSC is built as decribed by CAR and carries a $60k MSRP, well then it looks a hell of a lot better doesn't it? For just a hair over M3-type money you could be tooling around in Honda's finest technological achievement. That price is a lot more reachable by the "Gran Turismo" guy in his late 20s, to late 30s (which is the current S2000 buyer or used NSX buyer based on demo) than a $100k version of the car.

Plus let's not forget that what killed USDM sales of the NSX wasn't its looks, its performance, or its price tag. What killed it was its lack of status from the Acura badge at the highest level.

No one in this country, right or wrong as it may be, will pay over $70k for a Japanese car. Period. Not in any sort of meaningful volume anyway. Lexus is proving this right now with the SC430 convertible, which is a great car, but is selling well below their stated sales estimates from before the launch of the car.

It just doesn't happen over here. For that kind of cash, you'd better have a tri-point star on the hood, or have the script lettering that forms "Carrera" on the back. Anything else dies a harsh death because it doesn't impress the country club set.

Hear the message Honda, make the HSC cost no more than $60-$65k so NetViper can throw down for a new one the day it arrives, and take everything else to school. Let's learn from the mistakes of the past.

If Mitsu can make a high output turbo sedan for $34k and amortize it to a profit, why can't Honda make a high output turbo coupe for $65k and amortize it for a profit? Same question for the S2000, if they can make a profit on that car for $32k, then there's no reason that this phantom HSC turbo can't cost less than $70k.

 

[NetViper]

If Mitsu can make a high output turbo sedan for $34k and amortize it to a profit, why can't Honda make a high output turbo coupe for $65k and amortize it for a profit? Same question for the S2000, if they can make a profit on that car for $32k, then there's no reason that this phantom HSC turbo can't cost less than $70k.

How many evo's does mistsu sell? I would think of honda could sell that many HSC, they could come in around 70K mark. On the other hand, if they only sell 5,000 a year, they are going to have to charge a lot more..

I would say charging over 100K though would price themselves out of the market. At least for what the specs are above.

 

[Johnny@JETZ]

I would agree with that. But I think Honda realizes to compete with 500HP supercars, they are going to need one of two things:
1) A V8 or V10
2) a turbo

Since honda doesn't make a V8/10, I think turbo is their only option.

Like i have said before, I think it would be great if they took the Porsche approach with a lower cost NA model and a high-end turbo model...

we'll see.

Yes, I agreed with you! inorder to beat ferrari honda needs a V8 or V10, and here is what Takeo Fukui said:

"NSX should beat Ferrari. Currently we have a V6 and that would not be sufficient. But we do have a V8 and V10 engines with the Honda names....."

I think thats referring to the Indy and F1 engines

 

[SmittyCat]

this thing sounds pretty sick if that CAR article was true. I am hoping that it will be a high-revving NA engine that can put up numbers equal to the other current exotics.

No way I would be able to afford a new one anyway, so if they make it a technological tour de force like the original NSX, then they need to price it as such.

Anyone with insight, keep us posted on the NSX heir-apparent!

 

[danpiu]

I don't believe that rumors about NSX with Turbo. It's just a crap.
Turbo sounds to "80ies", this would be a step behind!

 

[Tom239]

If Mitsu can make a high output turbo sedan for $34k and amortize it to a profit, why can't Honda make a high output turbo coupe for $65k and amortize it for a profit? Same question for the S2000, if they can make a profit on that car for $32k, then there's no reason that this phantom HSC turbo can't cost less than $70k.

I wonder if they don't make a profit on the car, but rather later, on replacement parts .

 

[effer]

Ferrari has used turbos from the late 70's including on their F1 cars....

Not to forget the F40!

However I prefer the NA route which seems to actually be the case at Ferrari considering the F50 and Enzo.

IMO the Mc Laren F1 is still THE REFERENCE or IOW the absolute NSX.

Plus let's not forget that what killed USDM sales of the NSX wasn't its looks, its performance, or its price tag. What killed it was its lack of status from the Acura badge at the highest level.

No one in this country, right or wrong as it may be, will pay over $70k for a Japanese car. Period.

I strongly disagree.

How can you explain the two first year sales? The most expensive Japanese car ever in 1990, and by far.

What killed the NSX sales was their inability to stay ahead and futhermore on par of competition in the supercar market... on the performance numbers basis.

Of course on the reliability, build quality and technological side, the NSX is still on top, if not unsurpassed, and this is where Honda made another mistake in overestimating the marketing value of these edges.

Also understandable because Honda simultaneously tried to educate customers which was too much at the same time...to succeed instantly.

At that time some people hardly believed that exotic car didn't rhyme with easy to daily drive and to drive it hard on a track.
I remember that some said the NSX was too much refined, easy to exploit and trouble free for an exotic!!!

Today this is different, some education has been made. Compare the balance of an actual 996 compared to the previous generations...


The next NSX/HSC could be a marketing success if Honda recognizes some simples rules:

To sell you must be quick like Hell!

To sell it well ( iow to gain market shares over F and P cars ), beat them on the price tag and quality side, to you I tell!


Honda did a miracle in establishing itself as a true, serious and respected exotic car maker and they did it so well that Maranello and Stuttgart were obliged to completely change theirs ways to conceive such cars.

But IMO honda did only half the job because once you're in the exotic and supercar exclusive club you must continue to beat the competition. This means to upgrade as fast or faster than the competition.

The NSX should have over 380 hp today...

I deeply believe Honda HSC could sell outrageously well if they would offer a

V8 4L @ 130 hp/L

2875 pds

89K$ you Esse

Today, the supercar paradigm imposes

over 480 hp
under 3 kg/hp ( remember a Mc Laren F1 is around 1,75 kg/hp )


and sales wouldn't be too shabby with

V6 3,8 L @ 125 hp/L

2950 pds

85K$ US

but I wouldn't go under those numbers...

So I think ( pray ) Honda will surprise us and I doubt they will take the turbo route...

but they did it with the GT1 NSX...


Lots of talks in perspective...


A naive question:

Is Honda interest to kill companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini?

Even Porsche?


Regards,

Effer

 

[TigerNSX]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Frist drive of HONDA HSC!!

It's just me !

I had several cars with turbo and I promised myself to never buy a turbo car again.

If I was interested to sell my NSX for a Porsche, it would be for the GT3 rather than the Turbo.

The power is one thing, the method used to obtain it is the most important for me and turbo is a really CHEAP method in my opinion.

No offense for those with supercharged or turbo NSX, it's just my opinion.

I agree!

 

[nsxtacey]

Anyone have a copy of this article?

The article says something about a 4 speed automatic? Hows that possible if its F1 paddle shift?

By all accounts, I thought it was going to be NA engine. I seriously doubt it will be a turbo. Honda wouldn't hang comptech out to dry. From the photos, there doesn't seem to be much cold air intake to cool the turbos in the rear?

Then again, honda may be following porsche, who knows. A 70k NA car (like carrera) and super fast turbo over 100k like the twin turbo/gt2.

 

[NsSeX]

Is it just me? or am I the only one hoping that the HSC won't be the NSX successor? I personally do not like the design of the HSC. I hope Honda doesn't go the FI route and sticks with a high reving NA motor.

 

[MAKO]

I strongly disagree.

How can you explain the two first year sales? The most expensive Japanese car ever in 1990, and by far.

What killed the NSX sales was their inability to stay ahead and futhermore on par of competition in the supercar market... on the performance numbers basis.[/B]

Wrong.

The first two years of strong sales occurred only because US Car mags accurately called the NSX the second coming of Christ, and it became the IT sportscar to have...Briefly.

It also didn't hurt that the two compeititors it went up against, the 348 and the 990 variant 911, didn't offer nearly the luxury or day to day driving fulfillment.

Truthfully the NSX could have added another 200HP in 1993 and it STILL wouldn't have sold any better than it did the first 24 months, again due to the status issue I mentioned above. It had nothing to do with performance. Particularly when you realize that the F355 didn't debut until well after NSX sales had gone in the dumper.

Trust me guy, I'm no genius. I'm passing this info off to you from a friend that has worked at the upper level of Acura's marketing department for nearly a decade. I won't reveal his name, there are actually a few Prime members that know him quite well. I believe him, and agree, when he says Acura and ALL Japanese car companies have a perception problem at the high end over here.

Yes, rare examples like the freak NSX launch come along every so often, but please see that I'm emphasizing volume that can be sustained. Just as Mercedes endlessly sustains all of its various SL models, BMW sustains all of its 645 and M5 volume, Audi sustains its various S-models, etc etc etc.

Japanese high end cars are not status symbols in the US, and the general perception is that you're a fool to buy one over a Benz or BMW. None of us at Prime adhere to this belief of course, we know who makes the best cars.

But reality is reality.