F1 - Now the WWF of racing

[Lud]

What a farce. I don't respect a series where the person who is cleanly and clearly winning is ordered by his team to back off and let his teammate take the win at the end.

I don't even understand the strategy. What if MS is injured?? Ferrari is putting all their eggs in one basket.

Maybe next Schumacher can fight Tyson. Don King and Jean Todt seem to have a lot in common. Actually I'm sure the order came from up higher but he is the public face.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 12 May 2002).]

 

[Michigan NSX]

Originally posted by Lud:
What a farce. I don't respect a series where the person who is cleanly and clearly winning is ordered by his team to back off and let his teammate take the win at the end...

Formula 1 has always been like this. It is a team sport. Ferrari is doing everything in its power to win the driver's and constructor's championship and they have a much better chance of the former with Michael than they do with Reubens. These people are serious about what they do. I would have liked to see Reubens win the race too, as I felt he deserved it. However, that's not what he has been contracted to do. His job as number 2 driver is to score as many points as possible for Ferrari without interfering with Michael Scumacher, the teams number 1 driver.

P.S. Michael didn't look too thrilled with the result, but at the end of the year, when he is again champion, nobody will remember this (except maybe Reubens).

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'91 Black/Black

 

[aaronb]

I agree, it's a team sport and the Team would look pretty stupid at the end of the year if Montoya or someone else wins the championship by two or three points.

Those extra 4 points are why the TEAM made the choice they did. It's a competitive, but TEAM sport.

Of course, if MS wins the Championship by 20 points or so, then it looks bad. Whoever made the decision in Ferrari is paid to make the hard choices and made the right one for the Team.

 

[Michigan NSX]

Originally posted by aaronb:
..if MS wins the Championship by 20 points or so, then it looks bad...

Don't be suprised, if Michael wraps up the championshiop early, that he "hands over" a race to Barachello later this year. Does anybody remember Senna dong that for Berger or Coulthard moving over so Mika could get his first win?

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'91 Black/Black

 

[NSXLNT]

Wasn't that the whole premise of the movie "Driven", where Stallone was hired to block for the young rookie driver?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Lud - at first I didn't like what happened to RB; however, after an eye-opening education a couple of years ago I now appreciate this tactic.

At the inagural USGP at The Brickyard, I was a guest in the McLaren garage. Impressive is not even a word that serves justice to how these race teams operate.

Bottom line - racing is a business and the employees have a very specific task. RB's job is to be the #2 driver - right wrong or indifferent. As long as Schoomi is #1 with the red car team, that is why Montoya will not drive for Ferrari.

 

[Lud]

I am not going to argue the strategy. I do not think it makes sense given the current points standings and the way Ferrari has been running, but the future is impossible to predict so I don't intend to argue about it.

I am arguing about the RACE. If you like it that way, great. Just don't try to justify it to me if the best justification anyone can come up with is "business is business - screw the compeition, screw the fans."

I am not entirely stupid - I understand that F1 is huge business. I understand that Ferrari is trying to clinch the drivers championship for MS. And yes, I even comprehend that RB works for Ferrari and is their #2 driver.

However, I am interested in watching a RACE, COMPETITION and SPORTING EVENT, not a business transaction.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 13 May 2002).]

 

[Yellow Rose]

Wowzers, you're not mad at me are you?

If my explaination won't do, go to F1's website where they offer the same reasoning. They are using lessons learned from previous championship losses, to ensure that mistake is not repeated.

Regardless if the fans agree or understand, Ferrari has been "called to the carpet" by the F1 sanctioning body to explain their actions.

As far as F1 being a "business transaction", the three people that yesterday's decision affects the most clearly understand this, as evidenced by their post-race comments - RB, MS and the Prancing Horse.

 

[Lud]

These exchanges during the post-race FIA press conference interview with MS sum it all up:

Q: Isn't this a sport? Isn't this about motor racing?
MS: (No comment)

Q: Michael do you want to win the world championship because you are the best racer or because you have got the best contract?
MS: (No comment)

 

[Hrant]

Originally posted by Lud:


I am not entirely stupid - I understand that F1 is huge business. I understand that Ferrari is trying to clinch the drivers championship for MS. And yes, I even comprehend that RB works for Ferrari and is their #2 driver.

However, I am interested in watching a RACE, COMPETITION and SPORTING EVENT, not a business transaction.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 13 May 2002).]

Exactly my sentiments ........

And this is one reason why I rarely watch F1 anymore .......


And Andy writes:

"Regardless if the fans agree or understand, Ferrari has been "called to the carpet" by the F1 sanctioning body to explain their actions."

The sanctioning body is fulll of bs trying to garner some PR to save face ....... the entire F1 program is geared towards money as a capital venture (just look at their history of business transcations) ...... and why should Ferrari explain itself since it is in the "business" of winning a championship and not promoting the concept of let the best driver win ...... especially when MS already had 20 points lead and he is the favorite at Monte Carlo ........ F1 cannot have both ways.

I think CART with all its management and promotional problems is still a more entertaining and competitive open wheel racing venue for many ..... and look at the popularity of NASCAR even when there have been rumors of fixing the outcome .......

The fans want a good race where there is competition and the outcome is unpredicatbe ...... did I just say

 

[Michigan NSX]

Originally posted by Michigan NSX:
Formula 1 has always been like this. ..

The more that things change...

 

[ilya]

I've been into F1 racing recently to watch Honda progress more than anything. I'm more disappointed in BAR's pit strategy that cost them a 4th place finish, possibly third. It was a copmplete joy watching Jacque move from the back of the pack into third place. He decisively passed (not due to pitting) Fisichella and Coulthard to move into fifth... and was actually gaining ground on Montoya. Too bad horrible pit strategy and a blown motor on the final lap cost them more points.

Still, I am personally pleased with the car's progress yesterday. It showed a clear superiority of the car to many others on the field and Jacque looks like he is finally groovin' with the new car.

Yeah... it sucks what Ferrari did. I wanted to see Rubens win it too. I'm not too upset about it though. As far as I'm concerned, the real racing is going on at the middle of the pack... and yesterday's race was great fun to watch. Lots of battles, passing, and great driving.


[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 13 May 2002).]

 

[Ponyboy]

I think the outcome sucked and I'm a huge F1 fan.

Why race if you're not allowed to win.

 

[Michigan NSX]

Originally posted by Ponyboy:
I think the outcome sucked and I'm a huge F1 fan.

Why race if you're not allowed to win.

To earn points for your team, and to earn lots and lots of money to do what you are told.

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'91 Black/Black

 

[Michigan NSX]

Originally posted by ilya:
... and yesterday's race was great fun to watch. Lots of battles, passing, and great driving.

...and a beautiful track. I don't know of a more picturesque setting for a race track (at least in how in translates to TV).

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'91 Black/Black

 

[Ponyboy]

I understand the team concept. . .but as a team Ferrari would have gotten the same amount of points either way. If the goal is to get Schuey the Driver's Championship, which it is, then why not let Rubeno get the win, and let Schuey EARN his 5th Championship? Isn't that what "sport" is all about? Competition is good for the sport. If you're not allowed to compete with other teams, or your team member, then why even start the race. It seems manufactured and written. And who wants to watch that? But then again, so is the WWF and, and they have plenty of audience members. This is potentially really bad for the F1 "sport." I hope the FIA comes down hard on Ferrari (still my favorite team) and F1 doesn't go the way of Roller Derby (in being a manufactured event and in demise).

 

[Michigan NSX]

Originally posted by Ponyboy:
...This is potentially really bad for the F1 "sport." ...

Once again I say: It has always been this way. It hasn't seemed to hurt the sport any. I believe the Grands Prix are the most watched sporting events in the world.

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'91 Black/Black

 

[ilya]

Does anyone recall how Michael Strahan of the Giants broke the season sack record last year?

 

[Michigan NSX]

Ok Ilya, I'll bite. How? (I don't follow football)

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'91 Black/Black

[This message has been edited by Michigan NSX (edited 13 May 2002).]

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by Michigan NSX:
To earn points for your team, and to earn lots and lots of money to do what you are told.

Team points are the same either way! This is all about MS locking up the drivers championship.

You say this is the way it has always been, but the amount of uproar generated would indicate people do not feel this is generally acceptable.

So like I said, if this is the type of "race" you enjoy, that is great. Maybe Bernie can bring in Vince McMahon from the WWF to help manage F1. Then it will be really fun!

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 13 May 2002).]

 

[Sig]

The qb took a dive. Well, maybe a dive is a strong word, but he sure went down easy.

 

[ilya]

They were clearly loosing badly to Green Bay, the game was almost over, and Strahan had no chance to get that last sack to break the record. Favre called a play to specifically get Strahan that final sack. Favre basically lay down, the line let Strahan through, and he got his final sack to break the record. They all celebrated.

I'll bet the guy who had the record wasn't celebrating. This whole thing about unearned victories got me thinking about it (and that King of the Hill episode too). I don't like it because it will always be questioned. Everyone will always know who won the race this weekend. It doesn't benefit Shuey and his legacy and it doesn't benefit Rubens. It only benefits Ferarri.
There are two perspectives, both correct... just different. One is that it's an industry, Ferrari poyrs in 100mil a year, and they can make whatever decision benefits the team... just as a coach makes in other sports.
The other position is that it is a sport and actions such as these destroy it's integrity and credibility as a sport.

So the questions is: Is F1 a Motorsport or an Industry? Both? Which takes precedence?

It's similar to the question of film.
art or industry?

One always seems to interfere with the other, but neither can survive without the other.

 

[gheba_nsx]

1. as in cyclism (Tour de France, ...) or many other team sport the most important winner is the indivdual winner and the second target is the overall team winner.
Ferrari of course wants (and will) win both of them... so getting the 16 points for the 1. and 2. place accomplished only 40% of the targets.

2. Lud, they could have fooled you with a "two second longer" pitstop for Rubens and nobody would have complained about the pass before the finish lane

3. If you win this way you have to be FAR superior to the other, i.e. have two cars in the first two places ad have enough advantage to make one brake and let the second pass without having the third position driver profit out of this.

4. Only regret: Barrichello deserved to win as a "human" factor for me... nothing to do with the reality of the F1 sport or the silly wrestling analogies... wrestiling is a joke, F1 not! The best car/driver wins... no added weight for the winner, no penalties for the strong, ... the show is bad because of this? Who cares! Who appreciates F1 wants the (boring) technical improvement of the cars and not the big show!

 

[Lud]

1. I strongly disagree with the way Tour de France and some other races are run as well. For example last year in the TdF they simply ignored the rules just to keep it competitive (translation: keep the sponsors happy). I stopped following the race at that point. But back to F1... You believe that Ferrari's F1 priorities are 60% drivers championship and 40% constructors championship? I'm not sure I agree, but I am not an expert. Can you explain why?

2. Certainly anything is possible, but it would be difficult to do this early enough that it would not be obvious and late enough to be certain of a 1-2 finish.

3. No argument there, but I don't think that is relevant.

4. You state "The best car/driver wins..." But that is not true, and that is what I am upset about. While MS is certainly a considerably better driver than RB, he was NOT the best on the track that day. He did NOT win the race based on being the fastest car/driver on the track. If he was the fastest, RB wouldn't have had to let him pass. If you are just going to say the race should go to whoever is best on paper, why even run the race? Just give it to the statistically strongest driver. We could cancel all sports and competitive events and just give the best teams or individuals the trophy.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 14 May 2002).]

 

[gheba_nsx]

1. I think that 40-60 (not to be taken as a precise number but to show that it is not a 50-50) division in F1 is the reality. Ferrari won the constructor championship three years ago but that was not "winning"... it was a good season but McLaren "won".
Only after winning the driver one two years ago they really felt like the winners. In the F1 history the driver wins are much more rewarded than the constructor ones too.

2. Good point but they could have done it at the pitstop quite easily Sunday since the Ferrari superiority was huge and the risk for a pass by others was almost impossible.

4. I am spaeking that the "best car/driver" wins the season anyway... and I am also convinced that much of the results of RB in general are because of the huge work done by Schumi and the technicians on the cars. The same cars that RB drove... and again: Schumi may have put much risiko in trying some dangerous move to pass RB in a "clean" way (and we will never know the outcome of such a try) but since they are from the same team why risk both the first and the second position by doing this? We are not sure that RB was driving better than Schumi... at least in my opinion since there has been no challenge between the two.